Russell Cissell

JEA Yes, we've got brochures that you can show your customer. They describe the wood restoration process and why it is important to have a professional perform the work. You can view a sample of this brochure at: http://www.esproducts.net/Wood-Tux_Brochure.htm Does the mark left by this insect look like the wood is actually peeled or does it look like a grove cut into the wood? We've got a critter here that leaves like smooth walled trenches in the wood. I would be really hesitant to say if Wood-Tux would do anything to help in this situation. At best it will help block the smell that attracts them and make it a bit less tasty.

Mike- Citralic is stable in solution. As long as you keep it in a sealed container it should be fine for your next job. HD-80 is also stable in solution and can be stored for use later. EFC-38 contains a percarbonate and should be used within an hour of mixing.

O'Fallon is actually closer to me than St. Louis. It's the other way on HWY 70.

In the beginners mind the possibilities are endless, in the experts mind they are few. -Suzuki The moment you think you are an expert is the moment you will stop allowing yourself to learn. I am one very proud newbie! We don't know anything yet. . .

Ken- Our feeling is that the two product system is not going to be the answer on every job. It is certainly overkill for most decks. There is no real advantage to going the extra mile on what is basically a sacrificial coating. Deck floors take a massive amount of abuse. It really doesn't matter what finish you put on them it will require frequent maintenance to keep a deck looking good. The deck jobs that require conditioning prior to sealing will be those that are in really bad shape from a lack of maintenance. Fences are always "tight budget" projects. It will simply be cost prohibitive to offer this service for fences. Now when you start looking at high end projects it starts making more sense to offer a premium package. On high end deck jobs you can sell this "system" to separate yourself from your competition. When you look at cedar homes and log cabins, you are getting a lot more personal. People choose natural wood siding because of its "quality." These same customers will be more open to spending a little extra to protect their investment. The important thing is to make the system work for you! Use it to enhance your business rather than burden you. You can use both products together or either of them alone. This will give you the flexibility to control your material cost and provide extra flexibility in your square foot pricing. Bid the less expensive product on bulk and lower end work and when you go after premium work you can do it with a level of service your competition cannot offer. I would love to get a healthy debate going on this subject. I am very interested to know what everyone's feelings are.

Adrain- Yikes, I'm not sure they do make ding dongs anymore. Check the date on those bad boys. Great story! I'll share one. When I was going to school down in South Florida I lived next door to this Ancient Treasure of a gal. She didn't much care for me with the loud music and all that ruckus. One nigh the girl friend wakes me up swearing she hears screaming coming from the old lady's house. I go to the back door and listen and sure enough before long I hear the chilling scream. It was somewhere between HEEEEEELLP!!! and OUUUUCH! So quickly I assume she is down with a broken hip or something. I call 911. About 1/2 hour later after scaring her half to death I have two police standing at my door none too happy. The lady is startled but just fine and my credibility is not looking so hot. Thankfully about then the scream came back. They investigate and it turns out to be a couple of cats in the throws of creating kittens. The police forgive with a laugh and leave. Everyone returns to bed. The next day I wake to a new best friend and a constant supply of yummy baked goods. Turns out the Treasure lived alone in FL with all of her family up north. She was overjoyed that we made the effort to see that she was ok. She had tons of great stories and even more tasty recipies.

Jim- I do not appreciate the way you've handled yourself in regard to your posts in this thread. As a grown man and a business owner you should know that no good can come of behavior like that. I will not stand and be personally attacked. I have asked Beth to edit your post. I also left you a voice message on your business phone line yesterday when I returned to town and read your post. I left another message today after not having heard back from you. I am still waiting for that call. It seems that you somehow feel exploited. I am very interested in what all of our customer/contractors have to report. I want you to know we talk to contractors everyday who share their thoughts and ideas. Most wish to improve and elevate the industry for the good of all. Our job here at Extreme Solutions, Inc. and my job specifically is to carefully evaluate the information and feedback we get from our customers and contractors in general. It is through this process that we are able to develop and improve the products that we bring to the industry. Further, you are not the only one on this board that conditions wood prior to sealing it. You were also not the first contractor I talked with in detail about it. Please keep in mind that not everyone who uses this board post in the threads. The whole idea of this community is to share information. I think that certain people do in fact deserve recognition for their contributions. Most often you will find that they get that recognition. I guess what you are really saying is that, if in fact, anything you said aided in the development of Wood-Tux DMC you strongly regret your contribution to the industry. For that I am truly sorry.

That is an interesting picture. If the spots were in the wood as well as on the surface of the existing sealer I think the dark spots are what we would call a chemical burn. This is typically the result of an improper neutralization or rinsing of a caustic stripper. This can be the result of not rinsing after you neutralize. Even though everything looks good when you've finish prepping the deck, the neutral salts build up can react with the finish and cause this type of spotting over time. I was of the mindset to disregard what Michael said about the grill cover, but then I looked again at the pictures and had another thought. . . I suppose that it is very possible the home owner may have been cleaning the grill. If they were cleaning it with an oven cleaner containing heavy caustics there could have been some overspray or splattering. The caustic cleaner could very well have left these marks. The real tell would be in the way that you removed them. Did they come off when you washed or when you applied your acid?

James- I hate to break the news to you, but I don't think when it comes to this system either of us are brilliant. Furniture finishers have been doing this exact thing since before any of us were around! I also want to make it very clear that I have tried a number of times to point out there is no reason for anyone to compare the Wood-Tux line with Ready Seal. The two products are not intended to be used in the same way. The results are entirely different and if you've built your business around Ready Seal you would have to re organize to transition to Wood-Tux use. Ready Seal is a very popular finish because it has qualities that appeal to a wide range of contractors. It is an excellent product that consistently performs to the manufacturers specifications. There is no doubt that a Wood Restoration Contractor could build a successful business using Ready Seal. Our intention is not to "capture" the attention of Ready Seal users. More often than not the Wood-Tux system would not be a good fit for a Ready Seal user. My best advise to anyone who is reading this thread would be to find what works well for your company and stick with it. Best of Luck!

I couldn't even make it to the end of this thread! I hate spiders. I have to go somewhere else now!

Fence restoration has alway presented a challenge. The difficulty is obviously not in the restoration itself but rather in commanding a fair price for the service. I am interested in hearing from other contractors as to their pricing schedule for both new construction finishing as well as complete fence restoration. Our prices are set as follows: Light Cleaning $0.25/SqFt Heavy Cleaning $0.35/SqFt Finish Removal $0.75/SqFt Finish Application $0.69/SqFt In most cases we are not even being underbid. The homeowners simply do not have the work done or they will attempt it themselves. I would truly appreciate any information that you are willing to share. Thank you Russell Cissell

This week we will discuss how to present the bid to your potential customer. We will also talk about how to deal with low ballers at the closing table. There will also be time opened both before and after Wood-Chat for general discussion. I hope to see a crowd this week!

This week we will discuss how to present the bid to your potential customer. We will also talk about how to deal with low ballers at the closing table. There will also be time opened both before and after Wood-Chat for general discussion. If this will be your first time in a Wood Chat you will have to register but it only takes a minute. If you've got questions on how to join the chat e-mail Beth I've noticed that it function a lot better if I use the Internet Explorer Browser rather than AOL. Hope to see you there!

I think I confused you! I was trying to be funny, but it was lost in transmission. What I am asking is simply this. Was there enough pigment in THAT deck that you could have done the maintenance with a clear? We've had mixed 2 and 3 year test results. On darker wood usually a clear would be fine. Because it is not 100% we recommend using Warm Honey Gold to be safe. We did not test on yellow pine so I was very interested. They don't use yellow pine for decks around here.

Well, you know how I am always talking about wood restoration as a system? Each step is part of that system. When you have to remove a finish that is one step in the restoration process. It is possible to speed that step up. One of the products we make is a vent hood cleaner, it is pretty hot and has some tooth to it. It is made to cut through nasty build ups of cooked on grease. It would strip finishes faster than HD-80 but it would do more harm to the wood. Many people think Sodium Hydroxide is what makes a good stripper. You also have to look at what your stripper is doing to the wood itself (system). HD-80 was designed to do minimal damage to the oils and sugars in the wood. This makes the overall system more profitable for the restoration contractor. You do not want to speed things up a little if you are in turn costing yourself extra $$ in stain and working against your purpose of "preservation." Leaving the natural oils in the wood is the best thing you can do to "preserve it" at this point. If you could leave the wood attached to it's roots and covered in it's own bark that would be ideal! There may not be much difference between two products but sometimes the differences are VERY important.

Beth or Rod- I agree that the picture on the left looks nasty! Most product advertisements talk about weather and UV damage, but lets face it, dirt and grime and mud and spills are what make a deck look bad. Thankfully with wood siding you don't have to worry about most of those things. When I look at the picture on the right, after you've cleaned the filth off and you can see the finish I like the way that looks. For yellow pine it looks beautiful. Now I realize that what I am seeing is still wet from being washed, but I am going to turn "home owner" on you and ask you something. I like the way the wood looks when it's wet. Can you make it look like that? What I am asking is, on THAT deck, that pine deck, do you think there is enough pigment to provide adequate UV protection? Would you feel good about applying a clear? Do you think you would require the additional pigment in the warm honey gold?

Jon Nah, the storm split and went right around me. If you look on a map I live right on the Mississippi River in MO where it runs from west to east. I'm right in that bump in the river right about mid state. What you don't see on that map is that the IL side of the river is lined by 200 - 300 foot high bluffs. For some reason this causes most of the storms that move across the flat plains to break as they get here. Doesn't always hold true, but we missed it last night.

oops, I did that salesman thing again!

Jon Yikes! Sodium silicate is nothing you want near wood. It is just another type of "salt" however when it breaks down the silicate will stay in the wood and will not rinse away. This is a bad bad thing. It would lead to a very splotchy finish application. There is a company out there that claims to be petrifying wood using a similar (old) technology. The trouble is, once it is in the wood, you cannot get it back out by conventional methods. This is why you may see 25 year guarantees associated with this type of product. It is rather permanent. Trouble is most customers like wood that "looks good" one you've introduced silicates you are going to have issues with penetration and evenness. While the silicates will last and last, the color will not and you will still have to do maintenance if you want to wood to "look" good. But how do you maintain something that will not longer evenly absorb material? Some types of tooth paste have Naoh in them. This does not mean you should brush your teeth with HD-80 even though it is a lot less expensive than tooth paste. Chemical formulation is not always as simple as some think. I bet Drano would strip most stains. Heck, we make a vent hood cleaner that will strip faster than HD-80 but it is not designed to be gentle on wood. Keep in mind just because you go out and buy what is listed on a label or a MSDS does not mean you are going to end up with the same thing. So while other products may strip great, they also deplete more of what is in the wood and cost you $$ in extra stain in the long run. Your idea is awesome. If we could make a stripper that would not harm the metal that would be ideal. Oh yeah, there is EFC-38! It may not strip every finish, but it will strip most oils and it will not harm the metal. I do not want to ever discourage you from sending more ideas! Ideas are what lead to innovation and progress!

Jon We are trying to do the same "priming" thing only working with our oils. I agree that it would be hard to create an invisible prime. If that was an important goal it would be a fun challenge. We actually put pigment into our DMC knowing that there are contractors who would want to use it alone. It is inexpensive and does offer good looking protection that will last a year or so. Now getting back to that sales man thing, let me come clean with you. . . primer is an ok word but "conditioner" grabs emotions. replace or fill in says it but "replenish" sells it. I try always to maximize the effectiveness of my efforts. Rather than just describe something I will use words and catch phrases that will in turn help our contractor customers "sell" the bid to their customers. I do not sell Wood-Tux. I recruit installers. As a customer you sell the stain for me. If I wanted to sell stain to homeowners it would be much easier to just put it into stores and let them buy it direct. The most important thing I can do is support the wood restoration industry, try to educate the contractors and ensure that our customers are successful. If you catch me using fluffy words and you're not exactly sure what I am saying, call me out! I am always happy to break it down. Jon, I think you said in plain words what I have been rambling about. . . As far as lions. . I didn't name the company Mildly Bold Solutions, Inc. I understand that when you try to do things differently and buck convention you are going to have to face the lions.

I vote for walking away! The customer calls you in as a wood restoration professional. As soon as they start telling you how to do your job RUN! I guess when they hire a limo company they want to drive too!

HD-80 is made by Extreme Solutions, Inc. It is formulated for removing finishes from exterior wood. You may want to contact Delco directly to get that information.

Now we are getting to the good stuff! Since I am the one most often speaking about "replenishing oils fats and sugars that have been depleted" I am happy to take this on. First I must tell you that a prime function of mine is marketing and sales. You must always keep that in mind. While I will always present you with the truth and that truth will be presented in a way that favors our products. Does this make me evil? No, it is the nature of humans and a talent in sales professionals. If your child has big old floppy feet you may be more inclined to point out their beautiful smile. I will always be fair and if you want to talk about feet that's part of my job too! The prime function of replenishing wood is to buy a few years before completely neglected wood siding has to be replaced. The secondary function is to save the contractor money. I am going to do my best to explain this so that words paint the picture. There is a house that has 4,000 square feet of wood siding. The house was built in 1992 and treated with a clear sealer provided by the builder. After that nothing was done to it at all. Now in 2005 I come along and restore (wash) that siding. It looks great, but I can tell it is very dry. (the natural oils, fats and sugars are not very abundant). I have a sponge like substrate made mostly of lignin and cellulose. This siding is thirsty. I am looking at the cost of my sealer. It is $139.00 per pail. I know that I only need a couple of mills of penetration to provide the protection I am looking for. I also know that as thirsty as this wood is, my stain crew is going to over apply, the wood is just going to drink up the stain and it is going to cut into my profits. I can either do the staining myself, try to teach my labor not to over apply or just over charge the customer. I know that if I can protect just the surface I will save money, but thirsty wood is thirsty wood and this will be hard to do. Additionally I really do want to do what is best for the wood and protect it as best I can. There is another solution. Here comes that word! Replenish the wood with a deep penetrating oil and then apply the more expensive product over top of it to save on materials. By doing so you will add to the structural integrity of the wood. Addling oils deep into the wood will help keep the siding stable and it will not want to curl as much. In testing, I've seen siding that was curled when we started lay out after the wood was "replenished." This is because when the wood dries out it will tend to shrink more in the direction of the center of the tree. Wood really prefers to be round. That is why you do not see many square trees. Now Jon asks a great question. . ."What exactly is that providing." He is asking if it is over kill. The answer is maybe! The truth is both a Ford and a Ferrari will get you to the theater. As to whether the Ferrari is overkill, it would depend on which driver you asked. You can protect the wood without "replenishing" it. Sometimes you will want to go above and beyond! I want to make it VERY clear, I am not calling Ready Seal a Ford and more than I am calling Wood-Tux a Ferrari! I am talking about a "system" of wood preservation. You could probably combine several products available on the market in the same sort of system. If we could get Wood-Tux WET to dive all the way into the wood the way Ready Seal or DMC does I might be inclined to call it a magic bullet. The truth is we cant and that is why we now talk about "replenishing wood." Wood-Tux by itself is a great product and I honestly believe that it will out perform in NEARLY every way any single coat product it's put up against based on OUR SET of criteria. To me that is just not enough. Extreme Solutions, Inc. is about taking it to that next level. It is about figuring out how to improve on excellence. If I believe that replenishing the wood will bring an end result that will not only WOW the contractor but also WOW the customer with the Ferrari in the garage that is what I teach. Do I think this system is right for every job? Only if every one of your customers has a Ferrari! The truth is people buy based on many different motivators. This is a great system to sell to those who buy on quality and image alone. For the majority of people cost is a real issue. In that case Wood-Tux WET is the answer. (Ready Seal is also a good solution, but this is my post and I am a salesman) Now I've only touched on the basic concept of the Wood-Tux system. This is what the products are about in their simplest function. I hope that more tough question will lead to discussions that will bring out some of the truly unique properties of Wood-Tux WET.

I personally don't understand why there is this constant comparing between Ready Seal and Wood-Tux WET. We have a real apples and oranges thing going on here. I will tell you right now the two are nothing alike. The only think that could possibly be compared between the two is some colors of Ready Seal also use transoxide pigments. There is no way to say one is good because the other is bad. The truth is both products are good. I know I am going to be preaching to the quire a bit here but. . . Ready Seal is an excellent product for a wide variety of projects. It has a nice rich color that enhances the beauty of the wood. The select oils used in Ready Seal are ideal for penetrating into nearly every type of wood. Ready Seal will seek out and fill any voids within the wood and keep out moisture. Ready seal is also extremely easy to apply because it will not overlap or show drip marks EVER. Because of it's price point it makes an excellent choice for a fence stain. It looks great on wood siding and it speeds up the staining process on decks because it is so forgiving. Ready Seal has had a great influence on the wood restoration industry. I believe that anyone who uses this product will find that it is everything it claims to be. I know more contractors (and I talk to a lot) who have used Ready Seal than any other product I've heard of. There are no magic bullets and for that reason you may find projects where Ready Seal is not your best choice, but it will always be your choice whether to take on that project or not. It is entirely possible to start and run a successful restoration business using no other stain than Ready Seal. Ready Seal is a great product for all of these reasons and many more. I am really excited to talk about Wood-Tux and for that matter any of our products. Speaking with contractors is by far my favorite part of what I do. I am not comfortable talking about another product especially when I feel like to say something good about our product would be saying something bad about another. If you have questions about our products please don't be afraid to ask. That is what I'm here for. Feel free to ask the tough questions too. I do not mind talking about the products weaknesses as well as it's strengths. The more you understand something the more comfortable you are in making decisions about it. I really appreciate everyone's participation in this and other threads. Out of respect for the Ready Seal family I just wanted to make my feelings known. Best of Luck!

Beth or Rod I was looking at your pictures, especially the picture where the steps have been washed. If I understand correctly, this is yellow pine. I know this is just a picture, but there does appear to be plenty of pigment still in the wood. For a wood as light as yellow pine, it is presenting with a bit of red and looks more like a red cedar. My question is did you think about or consider applying the Warm Honey Gold color this time? I think it would add a warm depth to the finish. We've talked before about how with semi transparent finishes do not have to "match" colors because the substrate itself has such an influence on the final color of the finish. I understand that you chose the Western Cedar color because the wood was so light originally. Now it's already got the coloration down in the wood. If you came upon wood that was this beautiful rich color naturally would you still choose a Western Cedar color or would you use a lighter color like Warm Honey Gold?