Russell Cissell

Beth There are many levels of understanding. What you are saying is 100% correct. Acetone is both on the list and 100% VOC. You do have to add it up when you use it as an ingredient. Scott is also right Acetone comes with a 1:1 exemption. That means that if I were to use it, I would first add it into my total VOC, but then I get to subtract it back out because it has an exemption. It's not that it has become any safer, but for political reasons it is overlooked on purpose. Another example is I could make a stain with 50% mineral spirits and still legally sell it to you right there in MD. I could not claim it as LOW VOC but I could claim it to be VOC compliant. All I would have to do is pay a "tax" on the percentage that I am over the limit. In that way I can purchase an "exemption" for the additional VOC.

I have a better question. Why is it that Acetone doesn't have to be included in the calculation of a products overall VOC? Acetone is 100% VOC. Obviously it has an exemption, but why this one product? Why is Acetone exempt?

VOC laws don't necessarily impact all Oil Based products. Formulas laden with mineral spirits were most affected. At one time mineral spirits were a relatively low cost carrier however they are 100% VOC. Products that were lower in pigment and resin solids generally had a higher amount of mineral spirits. While there is a small amount of spirits in Wood-Tux (primarily derived from the transoxide pigment dispersion) it has always been very high in Resin and Pigment solids making it very low in VOC. In order to make Woodrich Brand Stain & Seal easier to use we formulated it with a lower percentage of resin solids. To keep it low in VOC, rather than use mineral spirits we used the same paraffinic oil that is used in Woodrich Brand Timber Oil. My biggest fear for the future of oil based finishes is cost. If trends continue in their current direction, I don't see how it will be cost feasible to use them at all a decade from now. The two most expensive raw materials used in oil based formulations are pigments and (obviously) oil. Generally speaking the pigment market is relatively stable. The "petroleum" market is insane. I get really excited each time I hear of some new "breakthrough" in water based formulation. So far though I'm yet to see a complete package that thrills me. It the same old story. If you make something that looks nice and lasts a reasonable amount of time, it is very difficult to maintain. Anything that is reasonably easy to maintain doesn't look that great or last as long.

I'm not exactly thrilled about price increases myself. Like Scott says, our margins haven't changed (for the better anyway). Unfortunately the cost of everything related to the petroleum industry is up this year. It is amazing how quickly an increase in the price of a barrel of crude will translate to an increase in the cost of even a plastic pail. Please note that if you visit Wood Deck Cleaning & Sealing Products - ideal for wood siding and log homes the first thing you will see is our Retail Pricing. The site requires you to register as a contractor in order to get the contractor pricing list. In addition, bulk order discounts are available. Any time we can save money processing an order, we pass those savings on to our contractor customers. Russell Cissell Extreme Solutions, Inc. Wood Deck Cleaning & Sealing Products - ideal for wood siding and log homes 636-288-8512

Another very important safety issue is to never add bleach to this solution. It is a good idea never to mix chemicals without checking with your suppler first. This is just one of those cases to make that point. Mixing bleach with this solution can be potentially fatal. Russell Cissell ESI

1.The only way to get in between the floor planks is to get in between the floor planks. You've either got to use a sprayer that can hit those surfaces, a roller or stain pad at an angle will sometimes work or a smaller brush that is able to make contact with those surfaces. 2. If you have heard people talk about "keeping a wet edge" this is the scenario they are trying to avoid. If the first application begins to or becomes dry prior to the second application of stain you will often get an overlap mark. Some finishes are easier to work with than others but as a rule of thumb you should: a. Think about how you are going to stain the deck, have it planned out before you start. b Work in a way that allows you to stain an entire board without having to stop or move to another section of the deck. There is no set method of "fixing" overlap marks. It depends on what finish you are working with. Options will include, sanding, stripping, feathering or removal and re-installation of the finish. 3. If you are working with a semitransparent finish, there will always be a difference in color from board to board. You will often even see variances across one single board as the pattern of the grain changes. A wet on dry application as a means of evening out the color will often go against the recommendations of the finish manufacturer. I would think this is certainly true with a water based formulation. Lastly, it would seem that you have a grip on the definition of "back brushing" In a simple spray/brush application using a pump sprayer, you are saving time by not having to dip and then thin off your brush in order to get the stain onto the wood. Often a professional with experience can easily apply a finish with an airless sprayer without the need for back brushing. It is all about controlling your spread rate to match the absorbency of the wood. Some prefer to back brush even with an airless because they believe there is a benefit in having a secondary mechanical action that will both disturb any debris on the substrate and help to force more product into the wood.

Rich Forever Gone would certainly work well for that application. It was developed for use in animal hospitals and kennels. Feel free to give me a call at 636-288-8512

Ken I would assume the type they refer to steps down with each level up. If that is the case they usually use the 3:5 ratio. So If the first level was 10 sqare feet the next would be 6 and so on. Pictures are worth 1000 words.

I spoke with your contractor late last week. He seemed to have a real good grasp on everything. I believe you should be in real good shape. Best of Luck!

The Brown Sugar has black pigment in it. The black seems to settle faster than any other color. If the pigment settles or the product seems to separate, stir it back together. It is not unusual for paints and stains to separate to some degree. You may not be used to seeing this because most products don't come in a clear container.

Rick I appreciate your frank and honest review. Aside from the results you saw on your initial test I would say that everything else you posted is consistent with results typical of most new users. Obviously the tacky issues have been resolved on this end. Everything else you mentioned is why we say that Wood-Tux has a bit of a learning curve. I will try to address each of your issues so that your next application experience will produce even more favorable results. First just a general note about Ipe. . . I have seen that muttled look before on Ipe restoration jobs. Wood-Tux does even out some as it cures, but it is likely that the muttled look is in the wood. Without sanding, it is often difficult to get that "like new" look on aged Ipe. This is particularly true if it has previously been finished with a product that was allowed to turn almost black. 350 - 400 square feet per gallon of coverage on Ipe is normal. Application method is the key to achieving the best results with Wood-Tux. The main thing that causes contractors to have problems with the finish is over application. If you try to apply Wood-Tux the way you would an off-the-shelf product you will have over application issues. The minimum coverage you should expect on any wood 200 square feet per gallon. Getting around the bend on the learning curve becomes a matter of controlling application. When it comes to Ipe, unless you are using an airless sprayer it is next to impossible not to over apply. This is the reason that almost everyone applies the product and then wipes off the excess stain. You could save a lot of time on your application if you eliminate the "wait a while" step. Especially on a hardwood like Ipe. Simply applying the product and wiping the excess off should insure you get adequate penetration and protection. Sometimes on really old cedar wood it is advantageous to soak the surface and then wait a while but this is only because there is a lot more "soaking in" to do on a very dry porous wood. In any case, as you get better at controlling your application rate, the amount of wiping or back brushing will be reduced. This will also reduce the amount of shop towels you use on the job. Please remember to place all used shop towels in a solution of stripper or a fire proof container. Spontaneous combustion can result from the improper disposal/storage of stain soaked rags and tarps. One suggestion that I can make to reduce the amount of spirits you need to clean your brushes. . . Since you've obviously got RS on hand, use it to "pre clean" your brushes. The mineral seal oil in RS will remove most of the Tux from your brush. At that point the brush should be as easy to clean as if you had used it to apply RS. In the same way, spray equipment can be maintained with Woodrich Brand Timber Oil because it is a non drying oil like RS. This is sufficient for equipment that is in day to day use. Obviously for prolonged storage you would want to fully clean your equipment. Beyond that the only thing I could suggest is that you try the Woodrich Brand Timber Oil on your next project. You will find it has a very familiar ease of use with a superior spread rate when compared to other paraffinic oil stains. It may be that you just prefer working with non drying type finishes. Thanks again for the review and best of luck!

If you are planning to do fences I would double the amount of HP hose.

Daniel I respect your opinion, and you are certainly entitled to one. You did a pretty good job of "selling" over application, but as you said, I am against it. I appreciate the fact that you pointed out that "over application" goes against the standard recommendations for the product. I'm also glad to hear that you are pleased with the way the product is wearing. That said, I need to take a moment to put some information out. Wood-Tux was designed to be applied in one medium to heavy coat with no product build up on the surface after about 5 - 10 min of dwell time. The product is loaded with resin and pigment solids in order to deliver superior spread rates. In actuality when applied correctly Wood-Tux is one of the least expensive products you can use. This is because a larger percentage of other products either evaporate away or sink down into the wood leaving little protection at the surface. Wood-Tux dives into the wood remaining close to the surface where the most protection is needed. When you over apply the product, it becomes much more difficult to work with and you run a much greater risk of having problems both during application and throughout the service life of the finish. Uneven Finish - "The deck has shiny spots, they appear wet and the homeowner is concerned." This is the most common call that I get from first time users of the product. It can be resolved fairly easily, but takes a return trip to the job. Scratches - The more build up you have on the surface, the more likely it is to be scratched. In my opinion homeowners believe they are paying for as much "pretty" as "protection." If their deck gets scratches in it from a dog or dragging furniture, you are going to get a call. Failure - Under the right conditions an over application could fail in two specific ways. First an over application cannot handle the freeze thaw cycle winter wood goes through as well. While it wont crack or peel it's not as malleable as a thinner application. Second is moisture trapping, if you apply a medium coat to a wet deck and then wait about an hour and apply another thin coat, it is possible for the second thin coat to cure without fully emulsifying with the first coat. This will lead to a milky muted look that can take weeks to go away. It does eventually cure out and look good, but the homeowner will not be happy. Drying - Over application can lead to drying issues. In the right conditions such as cool, constant dampness or constant shade the product could take a long time to cure. I'm not entirely convinced that an over application holds up any longer either. As the finish reaches the end of it's service life it is the resin that begins to fail first. With the resin built up above the surface of the wood the effects of failure will begin to mask the natural beauty of the wood. Even though the wood is still "protected" it has lost much of it's "pretty." If after reading this you still want to try over application, please use the product as recommended a few times first. That way you have a good base line understanding of how the product works before you deviate from the preferred application methods. In this way you will be much less likely to have any of the problems listed above.

Cleaning your tarps is only a suggestion. If you don't have a safe way of doing so I would not recommend it. It is obviously going to take more area than the average residential driveway affords. This would be the kind of thing that is best done in a wash bay with adequate capture/contain capabilities.

Kevin Woodrich Brand Timber Oil is a closer match to RS. If you still have your tarps, soak them in HD-80 and then rinse them with your powerwasher.

Larry You can Get Woodrich Brand Timber Oil in Warm Honey Gold, Brown Sugar and Western Cedar. All of our finishes come in the same colors. The only exception is that Wood-Tux is also available in a clear.

Dave is right on. If you were attempting to boost HD-80 the correct rate would be 10% or 12.8 oz per gallon of stripper. In your case, 1/2 gallon to 5 gallons. Always add the booster last. I can't be sure if this will be correct for Timberstrip or not.

Kevin I was just reposting the same information because it addresses points that were made after that original post. I figured those who were still confused may have missed it. I am not sure what to say about delivery issues. I generally deal with them on a case by case basis. I'm sure that several people had delivery issues during the transition back to the old formula. There was a period when there was simply no product to ship. The best way to approach an issue with delivery is to call. Right now most items are shipping in the 24 to 48 hour window.

The product that is being sold now is exactly the same as the product that was being sold last year (2006)and in years past. We tried to tweak the formula this spring to make the product easier to use but after a number of complaints we scrapped the changes and reverted back to the original formula. ***The thinner version that was released this spring has been discontinued and is no longer available.*** If you have any questions, I am happy to answer them here in this thread, or you can call me direct at 636-288-8512. As I stated in an earlier post. . . Sometimes better isn't always best. We take customer feedback very seriously at ESI. Because we are a small company that deals primarily with contractors we always try to listen and deliver products that match the desires of our customers. What our customers told us about our Wood-Tux Formula was that it was "too thick." The product was considered slightly difficult to apply because it is more heavy bodied than most stains. Being a slightly higher viscosity some smaller pump sprayers have difficulty moving the material requiring a larger orifice tip or thinning of the material. Because Wood-Tux is so high in resin and pigment solids it also requires back brushing on dense wood that isn't as absorbent as cedar for instance. Contractors who ran multiple unsupervised crews reported difficulty in training their employees to apply the product correctly. Wood-Tux is very low in VOC making it a product that can be used in all 50 states. Because so many of our customers are in California or the more VOC restrictive states of the Northeast Corridor, simply thinning the product with mineral spirits wasn't an option. This would have resulted in lower resin solids and higher volatile content. While it is completely fine to thin the product with spirits in the field, so long as you maintain VOC levels below that of your local restrictions, we've got to have a formula that works for all of our customers. (If you have questions about your local VOC regulations, feel free to contact me and I will point you in the right direction.) What seemed like a simple solution proved to be too great of a challenge. Lowering the viscosity created a different type of issue. The thinner version of the stain is entirely too temperature sensitive. It requires more heat or additional dryers to cure quickly. If the temperature is too high, the dryers could cause the product to cure too quickly leading to overlapping. If the temperature is too low it takes a very long time to cure. We were able to balance the dryers to obtain the exact same cure time as the original product but only between 65 and 80 degrees. While it has been reported (nearly 100%) that the thinner version is easier to apply, it is actually more difficult to work with because of the temperature sensitivity. Maintaining the lower viscosity would almost require two versions of the formula; one for cold weather and one for hot weather. In addition, the slower cure time makes the product more vulnerable to spot showers that occur during or immediately after application. In a survey of contractors who have used at least 100 gallons of each formula, the vast majority prefer the thicker version because of it's obvious advantages. While it is slightly more difficult to apply it can be used in the broadest array of conditions producing predictable results. For these reasons, we have decided to roll back to the original formula and resume our full production schedule immediately. For those who prefer a thinner, easier to apply product, we recommend Woodrich Brand Stain & Seal. It has the same level of pigment as Wood-Tux however it is slightly lower in resin solids. Woodrich Brand Stain and Seal is a 60/40 blend of Wood-Tux WET and Woodrich Brand Timber Oil which is our paraffinic oil stain. If you are in the camp that counts paraffinic oil as a "solid," Woodrich Brand Stain & Seal is higher in solids than Wood-Tux. If you only count the resin and pigment it is slightly lower. While Wood-Tux will provide excellent one coat coverage on nearly any kind of wood, Woodrich Brand Stain & Seal may require a second coat on very old, porous or "thirsty" wood. I sincerely regret any difficulties our customers experienced during this transition. As always we stand behind our products and will gladly work with you in any way we can. I am more than willing to answer any questions or provide additional information as needed. My current schedule should afford me more time to visit the BBS. As always, the best method of contacting me is direct at 636-288-8512. Everyone here at ESI truly appreciates your patience and understanding.

Rick Give me a call at 636-288-8512 and I will make sure you are taken care of. Charlie The batch that we had the most problems with was shipped out over a month ago. There is a good chance that you would never have a problem with the stain that you have. The colors are the same, the only difference is the viscosity and cure time. It's not that much thicker, in fact there was no issue with most sprayers, only a select few of the smaller pump sprayers. It is about the same as the difference between water and antifreeze. Daniel I don't go real far into talking about our resin system online but I will say that we don't us a boiled linseed oil or a raw linseed oil. One of the long oil alkyds used in the formula is derivative of linseed oil, but that is as close as it gets. I suppose that you could call this a "bodied" linseed oil.

Jim If the concentration of drier becomes too high it can impede the cross linking that is necessary for a hard cure. As long as you add no more than 2 - 4 oz per gallon you will be ok in either case. The higher the temperature (both air and wood) the more active the dryers become. You will notice the product you have curing faster the warmer it gets outside.

Sometimes better isn't always best. We take customer feedback very seriously at ESI. Because we are a small company that deals primarily with contractors we always try to listen and deliver products that match the desires of our customers. What our customers told us about our Wood-Tux Formula was that it was "too thick." The product was considered slightly difficult to apply because it is more heavy bodied than most stains. Being a slightly higher viscosity some smaller pump sprayers have difficulty moving the material requiring a larger orifice tip or thinning of the material. Because Wood-Tux is so high in resin and pigment solids it also requires back brushing on dense wood that isn't as absorbent as cedar for instance. Contractors who ran multiple unsupervised crews reported difficulty in training their employees to apply the product correctly. Wood-Tux is very low in VOC making it a product that can be used in all 50 states. Because so many of our customers are in California or the more VOC restrictive states of the Northeast Corridor, simply thinning the product with mineral spirits wasn't an option. This would have resulted in lower resin solids and higher volatile content. While it is completely fine to thin the product with spirits in the field, so long as you maintain VOC levels below that of your local restrictions, we've got to have a formula that works for all of our customers. (If you have questions about your local VOC regulations, feel free to contact me and I will point you in the right direction.) What seemed like a simple solution proved to be too great of a challenge. Lowering the viscosity created a different type of issue. The thinner version of the stain is entirely too temperature sensitive. It requires more heat or additional dryers to cure quickly. If the temperature is too high, the dryers could cause the product to cure too quickly leading to overlapping. If the temperature is too low it takes a very long time to cure. We were able to balance the dryers to obtain the exact same cure time as the original product but only between 65 and 80 degrees. While it has been reported (nearly 100%) that the thinner version is easier to apply, it is actually more difficult to work with because of the temperature sensitivity. Maintaining the lower viscosity would almost require two versions of the formula; one for cold weather and one for hot weather. In addition, the slower cure time makes the product more vulnerable to spot showers that occur during or immediately after application. In a survey of contractors who have used at least 100 gallons of each formula, the vast majority prefer the thicker version because of it's obvious advantages. While it is slightly more difficult to apply it can be used in the broadest array of conditions producing predictable results. For these reasons, we have decided to roll back to the original formula and resume our full production schedule immediately. For those who prefer a thinner, easier to apply product, we recommend Woodrich Brand Stain & Seal. It has the same level of pigment as Wood-Tux however it is slightly lower in resin solids. Woodrich Brand Stain and Seal is a 60/40 blend of Wood-Tux WET and Woodrich Brand Timber Oil which is our paraffinic oil stain. If you are in the camp that counts paraffinic oil as a "solid," Woodrich Brand Stain & Seal is higher in solids than Wood-Tux. If you only count the resin and pigment it is slightly lower. While Wood-Tux will provide excellent one coat coverage on nearly any kind of wood, Woodrich Brand Stain & Seal may require a second coat on very old, porous or "thirsty" wood. I sincerely regret any difficulties our customers experienced during this transition. As always we stand behind our products and will gladly work with you in any way we can. I am more than willing to answer any questions or provide additional information as needed. My current schedule should afford me more time to visit the BBS. As always, the best method of contacting me is direct at 636-288-8512. Everyone here at ESI truly appreciates your patience and understanding. Thank you!

calltodd Give me a call on Monday and I will walk you through how to fix that.

I would advise that two year old pressure treated pine is not a good substrate for the two step finish application you described. Typically, this method would be used on very old and neglected wood. Wood that is a little more "thirsty." Two year old pressure treated pine will quickly become saturated with the Woodrich Brand Timber Oil Stain. This product is very low in resin solids and very high in non drying paraffinic oil. It is designed as an oiling stain. Because the wood will be completely saturated with the non drying oils you will only be able to get a very small amount of Wood-Tux down. Wood-Tux is designed to dry and cure which is why it lasts much longer than a non drying stain. It actually locks everything into the wood. Because the Timber Oil doesn't dry it will blend with the Wood-Tux when you apply the second step. Because the ratio of Wood-Tux to Woodrich is so low it will impede the curing process. I think you would be much better off just applying either the Wood-Tux Stain or the Woodrich Brand Timber Oil alone on 2 year old pressure treated wood. As an alternative, you could try blending the Wood-Tux and the Timber Oil together at a 2:1 ratio Tux to Timber Oil. That would be similar to our Woodrich brand Stain and Seal.

You can certainly thin for lighter color if your local VOC regulations permit it. Obviously thinning the product will jeopardize it's service life to some degree. There is also a clear version available for creating half tones while maintaining the resin solids content. You can mix the colors to produce variations along the brown red scale. Wood-Tux works well with an HVLP spray system. The Sealer Store does offer contractor discounts along with free shipping. This makes them more price competitive in the northern half of the country. In most cases their turnaround time getting your order out the door is faster as well.