Beth n Rod

The Sherwin Williams product you're referring to could be compared in composition to something like Wolman Extreme, in that it leaves a coating or film on the surface, rather than being a penetrating oil with a solid color to it. Such films can be removed, but typically need a longer dwell time. Additionally, these products shoud not be applied in certain climates, depending on the product and the climate, and also tend to crack and peel when exposed to multiple freeze and thaw cycles. Another factor to consider is the elevation of the deck from the ground, as such finishes tend to do better on raised decks where the wood can breath than they will if the wood is ground level with less than two feet of space to the ground. Thanks for posting the report. I had not seen it myself. After reading it, I think I would have to say simply educate the consumer with these facts and let them decide. Most people don't want something to peel and crack, realizing of course that there is a cost to remove or repair the finish. Typically we see rotten wood associated with latex paint, improper conditions when painted (wood far too moist), and the wrong type of lumber used to build with. We have seen several local builders say they used pressure treated lumber, and they used non PT pine, painted over it when above 20% wood moisture content, and the result was dry rot. I'll look for the forresty labs link for you... I think it's off of www.usda.gov, but where I am not sure. Beth

Scott, I agree. We do need to advertise in very focused and specific areas, letting people know to look for the PWNA logo (or certificate) when selecting a contract cleaner. It would add alot of value. Consumer mindshare is critical. The way I see it, if we grow that, we may eventually end up with people looking for contract cleaners through PWNA, and then we have referals to pass members as well, thus we're able to say we are indeed helping to grow the business. PWNA could also have banner ads placed online on the web sites for various trade publications etc... Keep it coming folks... but keep in mind we can't pull money out of thin air. If we put ideas on the table that have a cost, we should be able to show how we can pay for the idea. Non-profit orgs do have costs. :) In some cases perhaps we can get donations or reduced rates for things. We never know until we explore it. Beth

Plain. It allows for future expansion.

Figures... Keep the US Forrestry Labs report with you to counter theirs. After all, they are the wood experts. Beth

Good grief! I would hate to see what comes up if I type in that URL... lol... No, I love a good steak. BUT...www.pollyesthers.com is my style. We have not been dancing in MONTHS. I think January was the last time. We need to do that...

I guess I should visit that web site....

The PWNA is adding a kitchen exhaust cleaning boot camp to the DC lineup August 9 & 10. For info on registering click: www.pwna.org . There is still time to register. Beth & Rod

Rob, Forgive me but I still have coffee in my mug... :coffee: Are you saying you clean or strip and then don't brighten/neutralize? Are you saying you don't sand? Help me out here.... Beth

Well, ONE bbs in particular will do that... but we won't mention that one. There are some fine BBS's out there though. I did mention this thread via email broadcast. Of course if our members wish to mention this thread elsewhere it's up to them. The PWNA Board of Directors knows it's here. :) Ask away! Share your thoughts no matter what they may be, ask questions, post ideas. You never know what will help us to better the organization so that it might become right for you. Beth :groovy3:

We wash trucks, clean gutters, ice damn removal, construction cleaning, house washing. And lots of planning goes on for the next season too along with equipment maintenance. Beth

This article was reposted with the permission of Russell Cissell of Extreme Solutions. Thank you Russell! ------------------------------------------------------------------- I’ve noticed recently a lot of confusion with regard to the neutralization of wood during the cleaning and restoration process. I wanted to take just a few minutes to explain neutralization from the practical as well as physical standpoint. While it is not necessary to have a degree in chemistry to be proficient at wood restoration, a basic familiarity of the chemical processes that are taking place will help you understand why things sometimes go wrong for “no apparent reason”. Further, it will help you predict results and alter your process to match the job at hand. Unfortunately, I am going to have to give you a bit of background information before I can get into how neutralization affects the results of your work. -pH 101 A Danish chemist first coined the term pH. “p” for the Danish word potenz which translates to “power” and H for hydrogen. Many compounds dissolve in water and alter the concentration of ions. Substances that form ions when they are dissolved in water are called electrolytes. The three types of electrolytes are acids, bases, and salts. Compounds that produce hydrogen ions when they are dissolved in water are called acids. Compounds that produce hydroxyl ions when they are dissolved in water are called bases. The pH scale was developed as a (simplified) way of assigning a value to the level of acidity or basicity of any given substance. The scale runs from 0 to 14 with 7 being neutral. Acid 0_1_2_3_4_5_6___7___8_9_10_11_12_13_14 Base __________________Neutral______________________ Anything with a value less than 7 (for simplicity) can be called an acid. Anything with a value over 7 can be called a base. The further you go from 7 toward either end of the scale indicates the relative strength of the acid or base. Sodium Hydroxide, a common ingredient in wood strippers, ranges on the pH scale from 12.0 to 14.0 so it is very “Basic”. Oxalic, 0.1N, used in many brightener/neutralizers hits the pH scale at 1.6 so it is acidic. “Acids” are substances that dissociate in water to produce hydrogen (H+). An example of a common acid is sulfuric acid, H2SO4- In solution, H2S04 dissociates to form hydrogen and sulfate ions. Some other examples of acids are lemon juice, orange juice, aspirin and vinegar. Acids all share some common properties. For instance the term “Acid” comes from a Latin word that means, “sour.” You will find that most acid solutions will taste sour. On a side note, tasting a solution to determine if it is in fact an acid is not the best method! Acids share some other properties that are much safer to test for. Here are some examples: Acids turn litmus paper red. Acids react with many metals to form hydrogen gas. Acids react with carbonates to form C02 (carbon dioxide gas). “Bases” are substances that produce hydroxide ions (OH-) when dissolved in water. An example of a common base used in wood restoration is sodium hydroxide, NaOH. In solution NaOH, dissociates to form sodium ions and hydroxide ions. Common types of bases are most soaps, household ammonia and lye. Like Acids, Bases share common characteristics. The following are four characteristic properties of all bases. Basic solutions taste bitter. Basic solutions are slippery to the touch. Bases turn litmus paper blue. Bases neutralize acids. Anytime you combine an Acid with a Base the chemical reaction that takes place is called “Neutralization.” This process of neutralization creates “Salts” Salts When an acid reacts with a base, two products are formed; water and a salt. A salt is an ionic compound composed of positive ions and negative ions. The ionic bond is what keeps salts in their molecular form. The “salts” that are produced are not simple table salt (Sodium Chloride) such as is found in seawater. Chemically speaking the term “salts” is used to classify a whole group of ionic compounds. These ionic compounds are created during the complete or partial neutralization of acids. Salts can also be created by the direct combination of elements, reactions of salts and acids, or reactions between different salts. The term “salts” can further be broken down into two sub categories: Acid Salts and Normal Salts. While “Normal Salts” are created during complete neutralization, “Acid Salts” are created during incomplete neutralization. Certain soluble salts (principally sodium, potassium, magnesium, and calcium) that have the property of combining with acids to form neutral salts are called alkalies. Unlike acids and bases, salts vary greatly in all their properties except their ionic characteristics. Salts may taste salty, sour, bitter, astringent, sweet, or tasteless. Solutions of salts may be acidic, basic, or neutral to acid-base indicators. The reactions of salts are numerous and varied. Because of their ionic nature salts cause or enhance chemical reactions. Being ionic means that salts have an imbalance in the electrons that they contain. This imbalance facilitates the transfer of electrons from other molecules. This transfer of electrons is the very basis of a chemical reaction. In some cases this transfer of electrons is a very desirable thing. When it comes to the curing of a freshly applied stain or sealer it can cause reactions that are not conducive to the performance and longevity of the finish. Having said that I want to take a look the chemistry behind the restoration process. Because wood, especially cedar and redwood, tends to be slightly acidic, understanding the neutralization process becomes very important. When a contractor strips a solid colored stain or paint, often times they will use a stripper that contains a caustic, or base, such as sodium hydroxide. After the wood has been stripped the pH will still be very high (basic) and the wood may take on a dark appearance. It then becomes necessary to neutralize the wood to restore a more natural pH and color. Proper neutralization is crucial for the finish to cure out and perform optimally. If the wood is too caustic or basic it can react with the oils in the stain and produce a form of soap. This reaction will drastically alter the curing process of the finish and result in premature failure. If the wood is too acidic it can cause decolorization of the stain or prevent proper penetration and adhesion. In general most finishes are more tolerant to acidic conditions then basic conditions. As you read before, the neutralization process produces salts. These salts can have varied and unpredictable effects on a finish. It is not enough to simply neutralize. You must also thoroughly rinse the wood prior to the application of the finish. Substrate preparation accounts for about 90% of a finishes performance. If there are salts left behind by the cleaning process, you are asking for trouble when the finish is applied. The tricky thing about salts is they have a way of changing on you. Again, as mentioned earlier salts can be created from a reaction of other salts. Because of this it is difficult to know exactly what type of salts you will have when you return and thereby impossible to predict how a finish is going to react to any salts left behind. An example of this can be found when looking at color shift. Color shift is a term used to describe the process wood (especially cedar and redwood) goes through after it has been over treated with oxalic acid. The chemical process that takes place draws the natural coloring of the wood to the surface. This is an unnatural state for the wood and in a short time the natural colors in the wood will migrate or shift away from the surface of the wood. This can result in an uneven or splotchy appearance. In some cases the shift can be such that the wood will take on a whitish “dead” look. The absolute best advise I can give with regard to the cleaning and neutralization process is to rinse, rinse and rinse. When you are certain that you have rinsed as much as you can, rinse everything one more time. The extra couple minutes it takes you to rinse well is nothing when compared to the time it takes to strip off and reapply a finish that failed because you didn’t rinse well enough. Best of Luck Russell Cissell

Hi Kyle, You'll find the folks here to be helpful and appreciative of the support you give, and in turn they arehappy to share. We have a few shy folks who like to read, but that's ok too. We'll get them to post someday. Please feel free to start some threads in the carpeting area on topics you feel are important. You can also use stain pads if you prefer. Depending on what you're applying, sometimes we use a brush and other times a pad. Some things, you just can't spray. Beth

I would like to see this thread expanded on. This is wonderful stuff! :) I would be glad to pass this on to the PWNA. They are working on other certifications. Thank you BOTH, for your ideas! They are always welcome. Beth

Have you got a photo? If you neutralized thoroughly it should have lightened up some. Mahogany is a dark wood though... were you there when it began to dry? Beth & Rod p.s. did you neutralize after each stripping? You should do this. If you didn't, you should neutralize again.

Hi Rick, Are you looking for a form, or what? Beth

Anyone interested in a deck lead in Bowie , Md. call or email me. Beth :)

Anyone interested in a lead for a deck and patio in Clinton, Md. should email or give me a call. Beth:cool:

We've got a HOT lead for a house wash in Essex , Md. 21221. Their house is under contract, and they need it washed ASAP. If interested, email me or call me for contact information. Beth:groovy2:

We're on the way to the beach... :) Nice beach too I might add, especially at the North end. It's about 4 hours from us.

Gee Reed, next time you head out to the EAST COAST....to say MARYLAND let me know...would love to see the bike! Maybe...go for a ride... (subtle hint)

I haven't ridden on a bike in years. I can't even remember what I did with my helmet. Beth

Wood Tux is not Paraffin based...it contains a combination of oils. We like it because the coverage is as expected and as stated by Extreme Solution. We like it because it can be rained on soon after being applied. We like it becuase it looks so damn good on the wood. And, we like it because the customers love the look and so do the NEIGHBORS. We like it because it seems to hold up well. We like the way it goes on with a sprayer. We love not having to shake or stir a pail. Beth & Rod

Rob, If you have found the key to beautiful gutters, please share it. :) Beth:groovy:

Oooops! Almost forgot. Many products will hold up that long on a vertical surface such as a fence. The true test, is your horizontals. We have seen ABR fade after 2 years on horizontal surfaces. Olympic was even less. Wood Tux is designed to last up to 3 years on the horizontals. It will last even longer on verticals of course. The ingredients are top quality. The results, very nice indeed. Extreme Solutions also ran it through acceleration tests as I recall. Beth

Cool truck! If it was enclosed, I would ask where you got it. Beth