Ipe.. great wood, but....

[PressurePros 248]

Ipe would be hands down the best choice for wooden decks, furniture and fences if only it wasn't such a PITA to keep sealed. Even with perfect prep, a pentrating sealer has 6 months before it kisses an ipe floor buh bye forever. Most times it looks really nice for maybe three months then begins its rapid decline. I am working on becoming a hardwood guru by absorbing as much knowlege as is possible. I would like to keep the option of this niche market open as a hardwood specialist.

I am in discussion with a few chemists and am performing sealer longevity tests, ad nauseum. My current interest is in the area of using acetone for ipe prep. i am very interesting in hearing your thoughts and/or experience with this solvent or any techniques and products with which you have had success. Here is an excerpt from a discussion with a chemist to get things started...

"being a chemist and having 4+ years of pulp and paper science under my belt just wanted to clarify the acetone will indeed dissolve not emulsify the natural wood resins which are lipophilic (fat loving) extractives composed mainly of fatty acids, resin acids, sterols, steryl esters and triglycerides. So most of the surface resins will be completely removed with your rag,towel, or mop and what remains on the surface (acetone and residual resin) will have the acetone evaporate well before you get back to that area to coat with TWP or the like....thus the resins will return to their initial solid or semi-solid state....I think I know what you were trying to say but a little off in the actual chemistry...The other thing that will happen is that if a copious amount of acetone is used the resins will be solublized and penetrate further into the wood....effectively allowing more exposed "raw" wood for the coating to bind to. Acetone WILL dry out the wood as it is miscible(mixes) with water and will allow water to evaporate (azeotrope) at a lower temperature...it is often used in wood preservation where the wood is soaked 3+ times in acetone to remove ALL water and then dipped in a acetone/rosin mix.....then the acetone evaporates and leaves a rosin caoting protecting the wood....

Acetone is also frequently used in the pulp and paper mills to extract these types of wood resins to improve the strength of the paper products we use... so I don't think it matters about sealing immediately after acetone wash....but it may help to do the acetone rinse last to help with the drying process you require after the RAD treatment (1-2 day of warm/hot weather to get back to 12%?? moisture)...the acetones removal of water will be immediate and may speed the drying process as well as removing any residual oxalic acid"

[JFife 14]

....Good to see you and Mr. Ed have buried the hatchet, so to speak, and you are know using him as your number one advisor:)

Having not done much Ipe, is the problem that a film wont adhere to thewood? Thus, something like DEK loses it's adhesion? Or the film just breaks down?? Have you tried RS, or something non-drying? Do the customers want to keep that red look, or are they okay with greying?

[PressurePros 248]

Please.. Ed is not a chemist by any stretch. He has been asking for you by the way, he says he has his toothbrush ready.

The problem with ipe, Jon, is that what makes it such a great wood (its density) is what makes it impervious to penetrating sealers. With all due respect to the Ready Seal followers, I put a sample of it down on a test board next to every other experiment I have out back. Unfortunately it is the one showing the most marked fading (after less than one month).

[seymore 90]

Ken did you put the BGA on the IPE yet?

[Russell Cissell 65]

Ken

We have had great success with Wood-Tux applied to Ipe and Cambera. I've got someone you should talk to. Give ma a call when you get a chance.

[PressurePros 248]

Shane, yes I made some samples of the BGA as well as Wood Tux, Cabot's aussie, sikkens srd, penofin and messmer's UV.

Russell, I will. I also have a strong feeling that WT will be a strong contender. Russ, how do you feel about the acetone prep?

[JFife 14]

Ken,

...RS color fades GREATLY in the first month, don't know if that is the issue there or not. Mythoughts, are due to it's thin consistancy, it might go deeper in the wood than others.

Try something for me.....apply some Minwax interior oilstain, like you'd use on a hardwood floor, with their app. guidelines. Be interested to see how that reacts,

[Russell Cissell 65]

Ken

I would not recommend it if you are applying Wood-Tux. It is entirely contrary to the goal of preserving the wood. It is also completely unnecessary.

As a wood restoration professional you have two goals. Protect the wood and Keep the wood looking good.

On a very hard wood like Ipe it is difficult for any finish to penetrate very deeply into the wood. A primary reason for this is the wood is loaded with extractives such as natural sugars and oils. These sugars and oils are natures way of protecting the wood and keeping it looking good. Because these natural oils and sugars are no match for the sun, the wood needs a little help.

To give the wood adequate UV protection requires X amount of UV blocking pigments. Many products are designed to provide about a year of protection on most woods. Most woods will allow for greater product penetration. The more penetration you get the more pigment you will apply to the wood.

The problem with Ipe is that it will not allow most products to penetrate enough to achieve the application of X amount of UV Blocking pigments. By applying acetone you are burning away natural sugars and oils and basically making room for more penetration. This goes against all logic. You are purposefully damaging the wood in order to protect it?

The reason that Wood-Tux performs so well on these hardwoods is it was designed to perform under the worst of conditions. It was designed to be applied even if the wood is wet. Because our goal was to create a stain that could be used right through the rainy part of the season we had to really beef it up.

Wood-Tux is extremely high in the two things that are most important when it comes to sealing wood where deep penetration is difficult to achieve. Pigment and Resin Solids. The pigment provides the UV Blockers and the Resin Solids work to hold the pigment in place.

How long would you like the finish to last on the Ipe? What is your maintenance schedule set for? There are a couple different ways you can apply Wood-Tux to hardwoods. Initially all look great, but one method clearly lasts longer and one method is fastest and one is easiest.

For more information you can check out www.esproduct.net Click on the Product Information Link and then the Wood-Tux on Hard Woods Link

[James 624]

I guess I am a hardwood guru- Been taking care of hardwods for Ten years. Developed processes for hardwoods and my own oiling methods.

Acetone is highly bad for your health for the amount that must be used and big bucks . Weathering is the simplest way to solve the penitration issue. Let is sit for 4 to 6 months. I have a deck ( ipe) waiting till spring. Its 2 months old and still beads water with out any sealer. This type of ipe I wait almost a year because its 3.5 inches wide with a radius edge. It takes longer to open up and in the shade.

If I let the wood sit 6 months I can put in one coat of a product 12 months 2 coats. Nothing happens to IPe by working with it.

[RPetry 564]

Jim,

Nice piece of property. Looks like you were able to prestain the wood prior to installation.

I'm kind of trying the same thing on my own 3 yr. old ipe' deck. Stripped Cabot's Aussie oil off the wood and sanded early this spring. Just letting the wood sit for a while. Hope to get two lambswood apps of oil into the wood late this summer.

[James 624]

Rick,no stain that is the Ipe. They ripped up a Redwood deck. The deck in the distance is a 5 year old ipe which I stripped( above stairs). Direct ocean front property. Also stripped cabana roof(cedar) and redwood floor.

Off to oil 3000 sqft of PT.

[James 624]

Ken try aging the wood at different intervals. Then try your sealers.

[hugo_sandberg 14]

The Flood Company has introduced a new solution for Ipe and other hardwoods.

Here is the introductory announcement:

The Flood Company announces the introduction of FloodPro Supreme Performance

The Flood Company is proud to introduce FloodPro Supreme Performance, a premium penetrating water-borne natural wood finish. Fortified with Acrytrol™, the latest in penetrating technology,

FloodPro Supreme Performance is charting territory where no Flood finish has been before.FloodPro Supreme Performance is aimed at the most challenging surfaces and conditions:

• Exotic hardwoods such ipe, Pau Lope®, ironwood, mahogany, and teak

• New woods

• Cedar, redwood

• Regions that experience the harshest climatic conditions

Extreme ultra-violet exposure.

Multiple freeze-thaw cycles

Constant damp conditions.

Property owners who make the significant incremental investment in exotic hardwoods want the best coating solution. Until now, most coatings lacked long-term durability and/or UV resistance.

FloodPro Supreme Performance benefits for the contractor:

• Water-borne – easy to apply, no odor, fast dry, easy cleanup, strong UV resistance

• Penetrating – non-film-forming

• Guaranteed - against peeling, blistering, graying and water damage:

Vertical – 5 years

Decks – 3 years

Exotic hardwoods – 2 years

• Multi-use – works equally well on exotic and other woods such as PTW, cedar, and redwood.

FloodPro Supreme Performance benefits for the property owner:

• Durable – longer lasting, better looking finish

• Color options – tintable to many colors

• Fast dry – property owner can use the surface soon after the project is finished

• Water-borne formula – no odor, safer than oils, better mildew resistance

For more information, please contact your dealer, Flood representative, Flood directly at (800)321-3444 or go to www.flood.com or www.floodprosupreme.com.

We have had great reception to this new product and it will last much longer than any of the current solutions on the market.

Let me know if you'd like to try some and I will get you set up.

Kind regards,

Hugo Sandberg

Product Category Manager

The Flood Compny

hsandberg@flood.com

www.flood.com

[PressurePros 248]

Hello Hugo. Why do I get scared when I see a word begginning with Acry.....?

Hugo, if you would tell me what makes Flood's product more unique? We see acrylics every day that fail very rapidly and when they go, it ain't pretty. Do you offer a reasonabled priced stripping product that will remove this acrylic if need be?

[hugo_sandberg 14]

Ken,

Thanks for the question.

This is not just any acrylic. Instead, this product features a penetrating water-borne resin. It has smaller molecules than oil so can dive deeper into the wood but will not burn up like an oil. Unlike acrylics that form a film, this product will not lay on top of the wood.

As a result, we are able to offer the product guarantee.

We know seeing is believing. That's why Flood works closely with contractors and provides sample product so they can see for themselves.

As far as strippers, if you have not tried our FloodPro Stripper/Cleaner then you are doing yourself a disservice. It will remove all deck finishes, even 100% acrylics. Check it out!

Hugo

[James 624]

Sounds like an intersesting product. So you can keep on recoating every two years without product build up.

Nothing dive's deep into ipe' it can't.

[hugo_sandberg 14]

James,

Yes, you can clean it up and recoat it.

Do you do any hardwood decks?

Seeing is believing.

Send me your contact info and I'll get you some product to sample.

Hugo

[Beth n Rod 1,278]

Welcome Hugo!

Please fill in your signature so we all know who you are when you post.

Beth

[plainpainter 217]

In the past When I had to apply an oil primer to hardwoods such as teak and mahogony - I would always wipe 'em down with a steel sponge and lacquer thinner, it removes the natural resins so the primer would go into the pores. I guess in these instances you may believe in a product that sticks vs. penetrates. I have always believed in primers that would penetrate for woods, but the companies do make acrylic house primers that 'stick' to the surface - so for decks stains - I would go with a surface filming product that is meant to stick more than penetrate. Another trick I use is to mix either Wilbond or lacquer thinner {same product imo} into the product I am going to use. I have gotten acrylic house primers to penetrate into wood like they were an oil. I'd mix a batch of your stain with ample amounts of lacquer thinner and then apply - this will work especially well with these lower VOC coatings - since it will make it less viscous.

-Dan

[Beth n Rod 1,278]

We have used acetone to prep for Sikkens applications in the past on the handrails which were Ipe' under direction of a Rep. but also at the request of a homeowner who was enamored with the product.

What the Rep said was that the acetone helped to emulsify the resins in the wood and would help with adhesion of SRD to the wood. He maintains that you must do it in small areas that can be done within 15 minutes of application.

My whole position on the use of acetone is that if one needs to go to that extreme to get something to stay on the wood then you are using something that was not meant for it in the first place. Acetone is the same thing women use to thin or remove fingernail polish. It evaporates quickly and acts as a solvent which can break down components that it interacts with. I had to use it plenty in a cabinet manufacturing plant I worked in for the purpose of thinning wood putty.

Overall, I would rather use a product that was designed to work well with Ipe' and not perform the proverbial trying to force a square peg into a round hole.

I am just waiting the year through for the formulation analysis to be complete after a year in the field to see what the manufacturers do to adjust and improve them. The new VOC restrictions have put us all in a bit of a holding pattern wondering if any of the stuff on the market is going to be worth continuing with or looking for something else all together.

Rod!~

[plainpainter 217]

Rod - I have used Lacquer thinner {of which acetone is a major compenent} to prepare woods like teak and mahogony for priming. It's just part and parcel with doing business - the companies don't put out every conceiveable product for every task. With Ipe - although I have no experience with the wood - seems to be a rather dense wood with lots of it's own resins from what I am reading. Someone said it beads water by itself, so just by guessing - it would be rather hard to get something to stick. If you treat a deck - and it beads water, it would be hard to get something to stick to it as well. So if acetone will get a product to stick, why not do it? Acetone from what I recall has been given exemption status from the EPA in regards to voc laws - the only thing holding manufacturers back is the extra cost it would incur to put acetone, toluene, or MEK into their formulations - otherwise I believe they would have a product out there with lots of acetone just for ipe decks.

-Dan

[PressurePros 248]

So if acetone will get a product to stick, why not do it? Acetone from what I recall has been given exemption status from the EPA in regards to voc laws - the only thing holding manufacturers back is the extra cost it would incur to put acetone, toluene, or MEK into their formulations - otherwise I believe they would have a product out there with lots of acetone just for ipe decks.

-Dan

Because it is damaging the wood which completely goes against a wood restoration professional's intended goal. Preserve and protect.

Acetone is 100% VOC. PA has a standard of I believe 2% allowable VOC content. Someone using to clean a deck better be incredibly careful. You can't just spray down the whole thing and hope for the best.

When all of this comes to rest, my feeling is that WoodTux modified from its current form will be the winner.

[plainpainter 217]

Ken - I understand that we're here to preserve and protect, I don't know the answers, but when I have to get a primer to stick - that's my routine. As to Acetone - true it's 100% VOC, but the EPA has exempted it's use, as it's been shown not to combine with nitrous oxides to form smog - so it no longer is on their hit list. I would be interested to know as to what will stick to Ipe after all is said and done. Personally I wouldn't have bothered to wipe down a deck with Acetone just to get it to last longer, customers can kiss my butt if they think I am going to play with acetone all over their deck - just isn't worth my health to do so. They'll just have to get use to getting their deck treated every year.

-Dan

[Beth n Rod 1,278]

I agree that getting maintenance done every year is the best method with Ipe'. I just wish something would last more than six months before it gives out so badly on this wood. I have heard of Russell's trials with Cambara and this is promising but let time be the judge on this one.

In working with wood, I have not had to treat it with anything besides turpentine to get rid of sap in the spot where the problem existed. Problem is, you had to use linseed oil to replace the oils that were damaged in the process. Now in the case of an outdoor structure, I imagine the consequences being unfavorable. Surface preps are important in many ways but to change the dynamics of the wood in order to get any sort of compatibility is not necessarily going to be good for the wood in the long run. Keep in mind that our companies goal is to help slow the need for forest materials by helping to protect and extend the life of existing wood on exterior structures. This lies in the forefront of our minds as we consider other alternatives. I don't want to come across as a nay sayer as I am open minded here on the possibilities. But now we are treading on the ground of going against the principal of what we are in business for to begin with and I shall have questions and concerns in that same regard.

Question #1. Why are we trying the square peg in a round hole?

Question #2. Why are we trying to make something last that against the surface being applied to the physics are against it?

Question #3. Why are we willing to compromise the integrity of the wood in order to make a coating last longer?

Question #4. Do we really understand the implications of what is trying to be done here and the problems we will create for ourselves and the homeowner by doing so? (I for one don't want a nightmare to deal with in a years time or a customer that is pissed at me for creating such a predicament.)

Question #5. Is it really that important to make a coating last that long on a surface that is has the equivalent rating of steel without the problem of rust being an environmental biodegrading agent and the durability to outlast the home it is constructed on?

These may seem somewhat onerous but no less valid than the goal of what we are trying to accomplish here...find a way to protect this wood and keep it looking good for longer than a few months.

Something to chew on. hehehe ;)

Rod!~

[PressurePros 248]

You're right. Ipe may be the bane of the wood care profession or it could be the key to riches. Dealing with the issue of sealer life on ipe can be viewed in one of two ways. Resign yourself to the fact that ipe cannot be sealed by the current methods/products at our disposal and at best clean it once a season and let the wood's natural properties protect it from wear. Or, charge the customer the full boat every season (maybe twice per season down south) and do your best to let the customer know that the precious wood they purchased is very difficult to work with and will not sustain a pigmented selaer aesthetically.

I applied WTW to my mahogany deck about a month ago. I really wanted to get it down earlier in the season, but you know how that goes. I made the stupid mistake of putting together furniture on the surface without having protection down and scratched the surface.. very noticeably in some spots. My feeling is that a richly pigmented coating made of a light oil such as a parafinnic followed by a coating of WT locking at the surface could possibly offer a solution for both longevity and maintenance. Once per season a quick wash with a light bleach and soap solution followed by a fresh coat of WT on the horizontals would be a feasible, cost effective solution for both the homeowner and the wood resto contractor. Any thoughts?

[Everett Abrams 501]

Ipe has applications that are 50 years old and more with no sealer. How long are you trying to extend the life? Ipe as a product will already last 3 to 5 times longer than traditional material such as cedar, redwood, and any of the pressure treated products. The ONLY reason to need a sealer is for appearance sake. The purchaser of Ipe needs to be informed that this will probably need annual maintenance for appearance.

I do not know what the mention of sap meant. If you were relating to other species or applications or not. Ipe does not have sap but is loaded with natural oils. Anyone who has worked with a fair amount of Ipe will notice the yellow powder and either reddish brown or green flecks in the wood. This is natural to this species however, like the sap and resins in pine this will not go away by sanding. Unfortunately, board replacement is the answer here as well.

I believe Ken was beginning to allude to it but, this is probably the most maintenance free decking option and still have wood. This is it's true marketability as a decking option.