MMI Enterprises

To do that John the angle would have to be so steep that the distance from the tip to the ground is increased and you loose the actual power to disipation.It is going to be a hard press to prove to me that the water moving into the grime is much, if any, faster and makes for better/faster cleaning with the word 'better' being key. Whatever water speed increase that may happen are going to have to be halfed or calculated out in respect to the energy of the spin being at a right(er) angle....Here another example for ya, Does a puddy knife scraping of a slab result in a cleaner surface if you scrape it faster rather than slower?..no not really. If same angle were used and force adjusted down to allow for the increased kinetics (coming from it being one mass and attached to a variable force such as yer hand) were produced and used the same amount of clean happens. If you jamm it in there ya got energy increases and shock effect.. Such don't happen with water as it is constant speed and flow made by the machine and not really attached to your hand or a spinner bar or imovable object. The energy of a bar spin does not impart the energy in same direction as the tip is spraying for one and every microsecond it sprays is another postion of contact.. Is only way I can explain it... Don't get me wrong, I would love to be proven wrong here and would love to see what yer hearing put in action. Way I see it the only advantage to a faster spin is the ability to walk without striping on real big machines where the backthrust of the water itself can't keep up. Just to be clear 5gpm is not limited to 32" that fer sure.. All being equal a 8gpm will always clean faster no matter.. Anyways, over and out fer now.. :)

Yes John the motorized idea is already mentioned above and I don't think it will take very much motor at all. As to the angle cleaning effectiveness...I think only to a point will tips clean better the straighter up and down they are. Too verticle and ya loose scraping effect (like when getting gum or using puddy knife) .Some bar situation perhaps may even flex to point of hitting top deck. I can't say I support your idea of spin AWAY versus TOWARDS... I'll try to do thesis and explain in my uneducated layman way....lol. Given same angle and power, a wand or bar moving either direction has never shown me to exhibit faster/better or worse cleaning. Once the angle is set to where it is getting underneith various types of grime the surface gets just as clean no matter direction. The process is better viewed as a PASS OVER that accumulates time on contact as the revs add up. Also applies in case of a wand. As you move it either direction at same speed, same angle, and same distance the cleaning is just as good with wand. I mention speed only due to my normal use of 'time on contact' terminology. Going back to my prior post it can be seen that I meant to convey the speed of a surfacers bar does not clean. I say such for a few reasons to do with energy direction, mass, kinetics, etc... Let's stray a moment, for my layman reasons, to example of cleaning something with a broom, The mechanical abrasion that does the cleaning does not do its deed until actual contact and the power in that contact will differ at the very second of impact from what you put into it...if your impacting bristles into the surface that is. Angles usually change with a broom also and so it is almost a poor example but I mention it as the speed in such case can store energy into the bristles to be released and transfered to the surface. The main mass happens to be connected to direct force by way of arms. etc. The PASS OVER of a broom is just as effective either direction if all is same during contact and there is indeed contact. No place here for glancing blow theory.. With a washer the above talk of speed, mass, do not apply and more kinetics involved.. With a spray of water out a tip we have a constant spray force. The force is always there right at the surface and the blast impact is decided by the machine. The mass is also on its own and free flowing per particle with a prescribed kinetic energy compared to the broom with no increase of kinetic energy by our leaning or pushing on it, or changing it's speed...It's just there or it isn't. We can't change whats free and in the air and already moving so to speak.. This treads on the old jumping into the air during an elevator crash idea.. (elevator moving and but so are you..haha) To make use of my broom talk, the spinning of a surfacer imparts no energy or stores no energy into bristles of a spray of water to be released later due to the nature of water being fluid. When realizing the medium being used with a washer (water) has perticular grit/softness and mass that is relatively small we quikly see that it takes a decent amount of power transfered into it to make it useful. The amount of water in the air between tip and surface is a fairly small amount of mass as a whole at any given time and broken up at that through atomization. Try throwing a splash of water by hand on a slab at high velocity enough to try and matter and we fail. Only throwing a larger mass will increase the cleaning by way of mass holding/keeping the kinetic energy. We just can't throw it fast enough to create abrasion. So a washer imparts a huge amount of initial speed (from psi) into the equation to get the force up. On the Passover idea we may see that the move or passover of a wand or a surface cleaners tips are not increasing mechanical abrasion nor kinetic mass cleaning ability as tip is no closer to surface. Power is always built in and always available to the surface if all in way of angle, distance, and power(made by the machine) is the same. We've all pulled trigger and had a wand fly away and nothing got cleaned but that is due to time on contact being short and mainly the fact the the tip distance to surface increased and energies disipated. Such is not case in a surface cleaner. The hampering of cleaning effectiveness of a surface cleaner by way of increasing rpm (spinning) only really comes by way of fact that angle of tip changed from optimal. In fact the terms flying away or towards aren't applicable at all as the angle dictated is fixed and moving along a right angle axis. (PASS OVER) There is no measurable fly away persay as any movement of bar puts the spray on a different spot and it's distance from surface remains same. When it comes around again it will hit with same exact force. Once again we left at Clean = time on contact whether it by single pass or many accumulated. If say 2k worth of rpm were actually somehow contributed/added to the speed of the spray flow onto one single spot then we could maybe have something to consider... but don't worry as such is not possable here as spinning is a sideways movement of the tips compared to surface. Energy/speed increases or decreases via AWAY or TOWARDS needs to be same direction as what is to be increased. Is a spacial thing. What the speed the rpm calculates into I do not know and it don't matter for this thesis..:). Flying straight into the ground off a rocketship with wand in hand to increase the speed of the water could work..for a split second that is..haha. Turning tips total horizontal on same plane should be able demonstrate such example of increasing or decreasing speed of the water compared to our stable earth enviro but the power developed obviously is into thin air within said plane and unusable for what we want. Ok so I rambled enough tonight,, do forgive, and do forgive any mistakes or use of word.. its late and physics aint my game really..

Revisting the o'l 'gpm dictates the size' thing again I see... Sorry but it is untrue in many respects. Not looking forward to going in depth here as I've delved before here and elsewhere BUT it more about the specific make/model surfacer, or swivel, or amount of bars, or how they adjusted that sets limits to how well a larger may or may not actually clean. It's about time of pressure on one spot. The size area cleaned by surface cleaners is not akin to a wand tips fan size and its lack of effectiveness as it gets larger period. Nor is it akin to a turbo nozzle either for those maybe comparing some theory of more power in smaller area. Distance to ground from orifice gets larger on any fan could be intertwined here but anyways I'll get to the points.. Picture it this way...the swath or arc made by a tip on a bar of a 20" cleans just as well as one of a 32+" if it has same contact time. The donut shape area cleaned by either is driven by a very miniscule amount of energy provided by the back thrust of the water hitting the surface rather than some mythical tapping of the machines power. The volume or psi is not any different between the two size. Both sizes can work with only two tips which is example I refer to in a 32". I contend that when you get down there underneith and measure the bar lengths that you'll see that there is only 6" of bar length difference for each bar between a 20" and a 32" surfacer. The weight difference of the extra material is so small that any slowdown to the backthrust power to turn the bar is tiny. In fact the speed of the bar turning is a misunderstood thing in terms of what it does for cleaning effectivness. Sometimes it described that the assembly needs to turn at thousands of rpm with some idea that speed cleans. Nope, equaling amounts of time on contact clean when cleaning units and tips are same pound for pound. When you hand wand your on a spot one time for a small time at very low rpm (none..lol). When you 20" at 2k rpm your on a spot many times for a small time to end up with some amount of total contact time either less, equal, or more than a wand or 32". Tip distance on a 20" is same as wand or a 32" and therefore just as effective. When your total on contact time is more with a 20" your donut area cleaned is of course smaller compared to a 32" and if sitting there or moving slow you of course got more time on contact then the wand. Since you did not make effort to move it the cleaning is more/better than a wand and the area larger. On a 32" the time it takes the extra 6" of bar to cover its half circle is about nothing and of no meaningful effect to rpm... many often site or compute such exagerated effect with being able to outwalk a surfacer when the loss is pretty much unimportant. Could ask why would one want to think about outwalking as walking and swinging is not much fun. Slow down and let the backthrust do the work for you.. *Fact is the amount of rpm increase needed on a 32" to match same as a 20" is absolutely NOTHING, But the energy increase to keep it same rpm is very marginal as discussed earlier*...Maybe reread that a couple time if you miss the point of this post. :) Experience I have with walking different type floor machineries with many different fixed rpms as well as adjustments on my 32" (5gpm) surfacer tells me you can not outwalk a few hundred rpm anymore than you can a couple thousand rpm. The idea that you can comes from picturing a real slow turning assembly where you jerk it forward before the tips could come and swath over area a certain amount of times..aka zebra stripes..In reality 500rpm is about enough to prevent.. When you use a 20" it usually is overkill/more time on spot than needed in terms of outwalking whether adjusted fast (2k) or slow(500). If rpm is down in the hundreds via tip angle adjust the cleaning can be actually better due to the tip angle itself but no better due to rpm increase. It cleans no more amount of space as it still only a 20" and any lack of rpm gives back no energy in way of cleaning units but rather only more time on spot during a single revolution. It all balances out as it won't do as many cycles around. Make a 12' surfacer with two 6' bars and two tips and yea maybe the backthrust will be too weak to turn the bar assembly to do but a snails pace to avoid striping but look at it this way..on a 24x12 pad you only need to expend enough man energy to move it 12 feet one direction. If its rotation were gear driven same revolutions you give no energy back to the actual arc being cleaned as none was being sapped in first place. Only thing that was happening was a dilution of cleaning due to the long path/arc/swath going way around. If it too slow for ya go ahead and stick a sprocket on the pipe shaft coming off the rotating union and run a gear reduced gas motor to it. The same tip cleaning effectiveness/cleaning units/etc. will hit each individual spot through the donut arc with same power as a wand, 20", 32" 36", etc.. Why it not done?..maybe cause our unions can't handle the assembly weight, they too big for easy use and transport, cost too much... End of story... I hope anyways, I hope this goes some distance to opening peoples minds of what is possable...nyt now it late..lol :)

Coincidence has it that the Modern Marvels episode on cryogentics was on History channel tonight and there is a segment on this mixed in among other topics of why they freeze things. Said something like 50-80% of all dry ice is used in dry ice blasting. Showed them doing brick wall, some wood structures, and removing tar from roof tiles worth 10k each at some historical building. The thing not mentioned in site link above that has me so interested this past year or so is that it is being used for cleaning very delicate items besides the industrial type items. Apparently some types of dry ice blasting machines are either made or are adjustable down to a fog to be able to do very delicate work. They showed it cleaning an old book in a library. Not sure how fine the line between being able to freeze and then blow particles of grime (that the term they used) away without doing same to the particles of a delicate old book but that's what they were doing without harming the book. Supposed to work due to the softness of the ice as it goes through the sublimation back to gas....Truly shocking results this process can deliver!

That what i told him last night that this one i liked.. so what was the second account? warned the idiot after seeing what they up to but well.....

you mean them theives right..lol..j/k... go ahead and send...no one ever know.. :)

it's all right here.. just run a search.. go ahead and email me yer ebook. I want to see it..thanx :)

Likely depends on the city yer hitting but yea they want ya to get a permit for a day or maybe it by the week. Just another scam for cities to make money and keep hard workers and the free market down.. Places don't let ya flyer parking lots neither. Next thing will be no dropping of cards or literature at places of business..Meanwhile the USPS can spam all they want..GOOBERMINT SCAM IT ALL IS I TELL YA!!

Same here...The yearly fall here sees them gone in a few minutes on commercial accounts with the 3-5%

Water under the bridge now...maybe isn't worth yer time or stress in making a hoopla about it.. Personally only few time in my many year have I let people get away with non payment. Usually reasons of cutting losses or being young and dumb. Few times though I had to make clear that I don't go through normal channels to collect what's owed. One time some dumb store clerk wasn't going to pay and he starts closing up shop and locking things down while I stood there all calm. He thought I would leave or something. When he mentioned the police I got in his face yelling something stupid like yea they'll be needed to pick his face up off the floor.. He promptly called his boss and after I yelled at them over phone I was paid and on my way to another satisfied customer..lol :)

Ah what fun of blending chems up..does away with drink or a fella getting involved in other spirited vice!!..just blend, roll, and snort..good deal Cody!!...I'll take a recipe PM of yer best elixir thank you.:lgbow:

Pete, No paint on fake bricks but is there paint on the balcony? If not then then them phosphoric type restore products a good choice and or the stronger bleaching...sorta looked painted on my screen.. :)

Sounds simple enough to just expect them to be ok with that but don't bet on it with everyone. Better decision might be to work yer way into it slowly one step at a time from account to account for existing customers. I only hold customers to 30 day notice with no duration listed and paperwork is more for scope of work, frequency and a bit of show. I describe things as being based on quality of work and ongoing mutual relationship. Any work done without contract collect under an 'on-call basis' at completion via written or verbal price quote or a provided price sheet that lists rates for such type work. Whoem ever is on shift does a 'pay-out'..Unsure what laws rule off-contract type purchasing but most everyone respects it like hey if the price is on the wall you done bought it. I think any judge in the land would uphold a charge you make upon someone if their was past business dealings proving a known figure or expectation of work that gets performed.. ya think?

That type deco brick facade (not painted right?) can likely take a turbo if ya got no heat. May need turbo even with heat. The flat balcony looks thin on paint like it's been oxidized and worn through from the runoff. A strong house mix of the 6-8% level, a butyl gutter type cleaner, or even some Clorox Cleanup should of sufficed if the stuff was on a solid top coat of paint. Following up with some citric is about all ya can do after the cleaners.

Is it real?.. some them accents these days are made of who knows what.. I've had good success on similar (rock beds) with about 6% and no pressure.

completion or deadline dates...what are those? Is all about the lingo and not over-promising. "Work set to commence *-*-07 and tentatively completed by end of work day *-*-07 as 'your company name' schedule or weather allows." This guy think he yer only customer and things are done in one day?..Sounds like a classic weisel of a theif looking for an out!..I suspect you'de of gotten it right if left to do yer job without pressure.

Hi Lyle...how goes it yer way, anything much happening on the wood over there? Nice to see you pay the site a visit.. Happy Holidays back at ya..Enjoy!!

Fantastic Greg!.. I luv a testing attitude come full circle, can't wait to see results... Did you happen to catch the idear I had a little bit ago about trying the concrete dyes before the silicates to do away with oil carried pigments and sealers entirely? Some are water based and some you mix with acetone. They used for polished concrete. I predict it could be wave of the future and have no doubt that mad scientists, if not industry chemists, are scheming hard behind bolted doors to come up with such a package. Hardest part likely in getting the coloring correct and ready to market rather than whether it will work. It may work so good that it gets sqwelched by manufactures for sake of conitnueing business as usual with what we got now....Is all a conspiracy man...lol..:)

For sure Jim yer right when there is huge padding going on...After all the guy securing the sale deserves what he ended up selling in the way of extra gravy and we really don't know what them figures might be. For sake of common sense though it would be wise that a fella break down his costs and understands what his profit percentage needs to be in a minimum sense. Steven, If you have such info into your costs and needs then they usually can be translated directly into a percentage that you can use in the real world. Check the deal out if you do as Jim says. Part the reason why some are sighting figures like 20 or 30% profit on the contractors part is because if you imagine a true partnership deal where all profits or costs are split down middle then you'll see that many opperate under premise of about 40% profits(can be alot less dependng on business model, marketing, etc.). When you split that profit he get's 20 and you get 20. In yer case though you need the other 60% to cover costs. Reason why you take no less is because your already gonna be soaked in labor as he is silent partner doing nothing. Know your figures then let him have his gravy if it there.

No way man!. You need 70 to 80%.. Yes you may be saving some marketing and sales dollars in a ready made work situation but you gonna be having to suffer all the equipment, chemical, and labor burdens as well as taxes. Surely he gonna 1099 ya to get out his huge tax burden. With that said no way I would sub out work and go through all the fund handling or the like and take less then 30%. ..If it were all his stuff and yer like his employee then you could expect 40% or less.

Have no idea what went on or what was said at RT but how about sharing the jist of it... Exclusions and what is not covered or how much is of great importance. When I recently went through about 2 weeks of non stop search for best carrier I weighed and balanced cost to coverage or lack of coverage and exclusions and ended up seeing none more overwhelmingly better then another far as sneaking in the exclusions. What I did see is that the line #6 Care/custody which is akin to comprehensive coverage on a car is out the window with most inexpensive providers except for Joe Walter's. Am not saying it fantastic or great since the individual coverages covered under that part is rather low compared to the main yearly aggregates but hey it better then nothing. Below is link to an actual Accord binder put up by a guy up the hill from me. I find it somewhat amusing the guy puts up such info but that mainly his line 6 is not filled in and therefore what he is actually caring for is not actually covered. Tahoe City's Top Choice For Quality Painting & Staining - Chapman Painting Inc.

Daniel, If comparing the term 'cling' to Rod's terms 'coadhesion' and 'molecular compatability' then that about right. Almost like saying same thing to me in a layman terms or outlook.. I'll add that not all curing type finishes whether the solids carrier is oil, water or an alkyd(emulsion mix) can be boxed into causing water to bead. It is more to do with the solids molecular compatability as Rod says. I can attest to this as I've probably used at least 30 brands of acylics or urethane mixes in hard surface care over the years and the beed can't be pinned down to having much to do with smoothness, how old the finish is, or the amount of oxidation present. For example I burnish floors totally smooth as glass and the finishes can still hold their characteristics whether beading or not. In case of car finish I think the loss of the beading that is so sought after becomes about the oxidation changing the mechanical surface tension of the water to wax relationship and the molecules of the wax being covered over. In floor care like I do oxidation does not apply as they serviced regularly. I still see tons of difference between finishes and their beed ability or rather their ability to not beed water. Is a strange thing to consider that at same time of having a more slip resistant finish (almost the term 'cling') I can still have a non water bead situation so that water dries quiker yet the surface is totally smooth, thick, and shiny. Water beeding comes down to molecular compatability and dispersion in my book. Maybe the term 'affinity to water' can be used as well. Silicone is a nasty bugger and I think it be main culprit in the o'l water beading arena. Terms like 'surface tension' or 'slip coefficient' or 'slip resistance' are used to actually measure such aspects of surfaces or coatings effects on them. We touched on the water bead thing in a few other threads back in April that you may wish to check out: http://www.thegrimescene.com/forums/wood-cleaning-restoration-decks-fences-etc/10325-stripping-new-water-based-stain.html http://www.thegrimescene.com/forums/wood-cleaning-restoration-decks-fences-etc/10187-experienced-deck.html#post102703 This latter thread could use some tending.. :)

Contrary to Bill, I always inhaled..lol.. :) ..but yea I'd do that wall in like 4 hour myself for $600.. now give that thing back over.

Hi Cody, What you recommend on acid and strength on the 'every job' when they not much visable in way efflo?

Sounds like he toking on that bong called 'surface clean the flat work at 3 cent so just boost price at 7 to 10 cent and blast it'.... Does it hurt to worry about driving all that water into the real brick. I'd surely test an area and let it dry a few days first..What the Brick Association say?