MMI Enterprises

Different strokes for different folks on general cleaning I suppose... When it comes to solving an actual issue though then fer sure ya got to consider options and then make point to choose the best option for task at hand even if it outside yer game plan. As them be the times to put forth your best without excessive regard to pride, price, efficiency, etc. For me the idea of flexability in what I use could pose small problem to some though. Take for instance a business pushing their wares as green or eco friendly yadda yadda ..they can't ethically go outside their game plan to fix a special issue just cause it special issue now could they?... :) Happened to be browsing Messmer's in regard to a question elsewhere and noticed the consession of voting for bleach directly after not voting for bleach..sort of funny the halfway conflicting statements..

Have heard of undersizing DSer's to get a bit more draw so I could see system with two of the 3-5gpm working fine while under single 8gpm spaying or dual. Not sure how much affect the increased restriction is to the 8gpm of desired power down the line though. Doubt it much though as the orifice difference is like .2 mm between the 3 sizes generally available. Can't see two of the 5-8gpm version working as good in terms of draw rate as they could have in a single wand system except for fact the 8 rating is at the higher end of the 5-8 rating.

I'm there man.. thanx heaps!!.. Will try to pass back in summation anything related if I get chance. I get knowledge everywhere I can find it and am sure you respect and understand the simple goal of justifying our claims directly from valid or respected sources.. For instance I've relatives with college learnin in the Forest Service and old time painters that I gleam off but as we all know 3rd party heresay really is just that..

Eric, I know you are better able to explain issues that could be involved so I am good and happy with you composing it. I too am awaiting the proper way to go about the dual wanding and then secondarily, but most importantly to me, the DS issues of multi DSing. I just know if you were to combine the outputs after splitting and DSing that at some point no gains will be had in the total amount of chem being drawable. Something to do with head pressure, back pressure, and energy losses. My feeling (brain is mush again after thinking on wood for the last hour) is that the 8gpm trying to go through just one 4gpm tip is going to set off the unloader. Thinks I heard some mention one time or another about using two unloaders..Where's the experts? they come here anymore?

Bored today and feel like writing so... Maybe you missed why the mention of interior wood? Was about chem effects in isolation from cyclical weather, not about mechanical breakdown/fiber removal that might come after. With that said, yes indeed maybe the early/late wood could exhibit the raised condition if a non flat method of mechanical wear was introduced rather than floor scrubbers or a sander via digging in.... But again it is easy enough to see what I am after. I am after some proof that one chem softens or sets up a piece of wood for this failure more than another. I hear Rod saying basically that the early/late rings are softened/or lignan affected differently from chem. Where the proof of this?..not saying it doesn't, just want to see it is all.. I see it that yes indeed one ring might loose it's natural oils and durabilities faster than the other via the weathering cycles or maybe yes the chems at play but then we are into the poor practice of using too much pressure to show it. I would contend it needs proven that the wood gets changed from the chem as I suspect the early/late already has these differing softness already irrevokably until sucked dry due to resin/sap distribution. The softness is preset from the naturals. That is common sense as anyone can walk outside and see a piece of wood with raised grain but never having any chem or pressure taken to it. Trees grow at varying rates through a year or over the years and will have differing amounts of absorbable fiber. When we cut a board out of them no allowance for the natural varying amounts of oils or what the wood would be shaped like if full of moisture/resin/sap or totaly bone dry can be tolerated for as we cut it at a fixed time and space. Therefore any piece of wood will show raised or lowered grain between the rings if all the naturals are removed. Same as fixing a dent with steam we can always change or infuse the cell structures with a fluid to change the flatness. Plain old water will do it or anything we use or apply to it that penetrates. The condition the wood is in when we cut or maintain it is not it's natural state of either being fully alive or fully drained of it's moisture and it's natural growth byproducts. Wood is just like a sponge. If you take a dried out sponge and apply a couple lines of resin across it and then get it wet it will expand but expand in a corrugated fashion as if it a ring of a tree. If ya do it with oil it will also but if you degrease sponge first it won't. Now answer me this..is the sponge fiber all consistantly distributed and same softness when dry..Answer is yes...Is a tree same through and through. Answer is no on the consistancy of cell distribution. But that relates to the amount of growth difference over the years and not to softness via the amount of hardened byproduct/resin. We can never get around raised grain as we cut it in one point in time that does not account for the fully dried state. So but anyways.. feel free to point me to the info that shows the fully drained wood being softer between the rings or info showing chems softening ring areas differently. To me this whole secondary topic of 'raised' grain on our part is about resin being there or not..perhaps bleach don't take it away as fast as other chems..afterall, everyone knows a degreasing type product will disolve various oils faster than other chems....that's my fence sitting position folks.. you could say I agree with James and Beth both. James speaks in absolutes and so does Beth...all here are correct in their own way...haha :) My adivice is that if your going to strip and open the wood up then your going to be in a position of raising a grain (although almost microscopic it can still be felt) with any liquid.

Sounds'bout right to me Rod... Wolman agrees in the misnomer apparently as well. They define the term as such: "Raised Grain – A roughened condition of the surface of dressed lumber in which the harder latewood is raised above the softer earlywood but not torn loose from it; similar to a corrugated surface. It’s usually caused by the cyclic wetting and drying of the surface, resulting in swelling and shrinking of the latewood and earlywood bands of individual annual rings." ...leaves out talk of chems or contractor error...maybe for good reason, but also leaves room for other causes with "usually".. The deeper delving into chems causing more swell or faster loss of lignin or oils is to me of lesser importance compared to the cause by moisture cycles but I am open to seeing proof of chem damage causing it without weather exposure. I mean has anyone ever shown boards not exposed to exterior weather cycles of moisture but were exposed to chems and they ended up with raised grain? One might think we should see alot of interior wood surface with raised grain but I can't say I have as most of itis permenant finish. I can tell ya though that I have cleaned and stripped my fair share of wooden flooring with chems of many sorts over the years and still never saw it. It all swells about equal is what I always saw.

..please confirm back after it done and let us know how it all works out.... Wondering if yer going with quik connect spray tips and thinking about halfing their sizes for both high pressure rinse and then also the low pressure DSing? Also, are you going with 4gpm DSer's if ya go with two?..hows that gonna work for ya when single wand spraying? Always been interested in these multi venturi ideas..

More so than that Beth my understanding is that firstly it is a preexisting condition unrelated to chems and is due to normal wood shrinkage and the resulting natural oil loss...but maybe I am confusing the different definitions of wood conditions.. You seem to be implying a condition that only shows itself after cleaning wheras I am refering to examples of it raised even before.

Please point me to where the darkness thing is proven or discussed before. Not sure if you ever responded another time when we touched on the subject. Think I shared my experience that I seen no such thing beyond leaving some gray fir which happens to show as real dark when wet on redwood. Reason being for darkness would be the imply then that the chem is not strong enough in some situation to remove the gray not that it darkens the wood more so than another alkaline chem. If you scrape the wet dark fir with fingernail it will be seen that the good wet wood below the dead is not dark. That would need explaining don't ya think since it too is very wet with percarb. But for most part when these top dead layers that go unremoved due to lack of strength dries it goes as lite as the next chem far as I can tell. To speed up and really see things lighten we know that acid is a good bet to use. I think what many of you bleach people would really like to say is that bleach seems to cut through gray layers to the fresh wood and at same time not make it quite as dark as some other high ph chems such as mainly hydroxide..That fair to say? Regardless I'll stress my meager point in saying I use acid for the wood itself and for the stain itself due to unanswered questions. IS aside from bleach debate...carry on.. :)

Hi Shane, I don't relate my having a question to your stating your abilities and experience. Your work speaks for itself. With that said I would point out that the durability you site is not special beyond that of others not using bleach. Most the quality woodies here know that it is the whole package start to finish and not bleach or hydroxide making the finished products. Really there is no need to expect an answer from me on your questions of why they last so long. It is an industry and consumer expectation that they last about that which you say. Now to try and be even more clear.. (as it seems you guys have a one track bleach mind, hehe)...Most anything in too strong a dilution will degrade a non-catylized and some catylized or cured finishes. The amount of said degradation will vary depending on strength, dwell, and what exactly the finish is. Cured linseed is going to be different in chemical durability lets say than standard water based acrylic or crosslinked water based acrylic. Why them manu recommend using bleach you ask?... I can only guess it cause they know that in right dilution it will not overtly damage most exterior finish beyond some acceptable level. That is not to say it don't do some level of damage. Remember, I was pointing it out that some say such on label just before you and apparently maybe for same reasons. It could also be that they know their product or they think they know everyones wood, or they know bleach don't make for much of a degreaser, or perhaps they be ignorant to whatever fact we choose to label them..haha..don't really care to question their motive really when I know it is about making money and trying to be on the 'RIGHT' or rather the 'More Right/more powerful' side of the ongoing debate themselves... they surely not taking the PC side that fer sure..lol (am not one for or against pc mind you) Your all welcome to use them recommendations of the manufactures as an ammo FOR the bleach gun if ya like. Point that some stain manufacture might enjoy discussing is that they know their stain changes color or lightens when it comes in contact with bleach. Haven't confirmed it either way with a variety of stain myself but I am not at all willing to discount the idea as it has been passed down by old timers way older and wiser than myself. Not to discount anyones experience here on this board but I fail to see any of us as experts beyond that of some really old timer guys. I mean they don't use computers and got a foot or twio in the grave already and we don't really have the bennefit of their imput here. So who has put a cup of bleach or hydroxide in a few variety of stain to see if shade changes, etc?.. maybe a cup to a gallon show us something.. don't know. But in there lay my interests and why I shy towards acid washing and/or a real good rinsing after using bleach or anything up the ph scale or of a bleaching type chem for that matter.

Perhaps some missed when I said I am not for or against Bleach?

haha. nice to meet ya goober..ya know Pile?..J/K..hehe That question gettin some play over the other site is what I meant..:)

And whether it don't come perfect after all these methods make sure to get them on the o'l Sheila Shine program to help prevent in future. Put her on by the gallon...j/k...don't do that, wouldn't be for a floor..:) Is good on fountains and sinks though. Buy by the gallon and apply with trigger spray. I always had good results with the old aluminum Mag cleaner..gotta find the right one with acid in it though.Mighta been the Eagle One. Non acid wheel cleaners are mostly junk.

By the time they water it down a tad Charlie it likely at a low house wash level of 1.5% or so ..so should work good fer mild mildew don't ya think..That is what some stain manu tell customer to do in between services is to clean with bleach. I agree most valid debate issues between bleach and other offerings is more about dilutions...so we're on same page there... A deck needing strip is job fer hydroxide and bound to be mixed stronger so I fail to see the point of one doing more damage as very debatable people....hydroxide is used in food production on things like pretzels even.. I also absolutely question the idea of a bleached deck not needing acid washed after a rinse but before stain. Just look at where it is on the ph scale people. The stain wants the right condition too not just the wood....why risk something not meshing or job to job consistancy when ya can give things their best opportune by a little extra rinsing.. or better yet a little acid after as well. I aint for or against bleach....but ya better believe that bleach will degrade and dry out a non catalyzed finish just like most anything else can. Best bet is to have these HOer's clean with neutral car wash or neutral floor cleaner if ya don't want to be back as soon... :)

I see you get around eh Travis :)

Not meant as sarcasm as others would have it...just pointing out that I thinks they already went there... least that the imply anyways. :) enjoy!!

pfffftt

That would be regressive and redundant.

Thaz good to hear Jason on the variable. I have one of them as well as their air orbital and hvlp. Stuff always goes on sale for big savings. Question though.. what the best price and supplier for the osborne type cups you ever find? To me it seems a bit rediculous in having to pay twice as much as the machinery it going on. Even when I get a place like Osh to order they're like $70.

Umm err.. we would need sq.ft. of floor, ln.ft. of railing...yikes stairs is a whole other no fun issue...3.25 gal of stain only?. ahh let's see, Russel says 200-225 per and uses the 6' laydown rail method don't he?.. oohp too much math to figure...lol I'll just get out easy and say $1250 without figuring in drive time and sanding.. :) psst--two 3hr. days max

Now taking bets whether she'll step in and have you do the lattice...:deal:

Them quality hvlp pots by Binks have them agitators built in but they too rich fer me..I'll start useing a drill paddle on all product rather than relying on store shaking and my pouring into sprayer. Being stain or paint done in transparent containers on large scale is fairly new thing I for one had no idea just how fast the parts may stratify...

I wouldn't use it without a sticky test (oh I see you did) or a confirmation that the fixed (classic) does the seperation as well..No matter how many times I have asked the question it never got answered.. Since everyone should now have the fixed stuff in transparent containers it should be readily known. Russell, Scott, Rod?.. what the vedict, does it point to anything?

Wow Russell.. that is the best dang straight forward post you made in awhile.. I am new user of course and but I must be a monkey's uncle if you didn't just hit on everything of importantance in working that product. The part about airless (or hvlp), quik wiping hardwood (or hot weather) rings true to me as well as pre-oiling or post oiling things. In the end I'm all about less slop and no drop so I doing everything I can to limit stain from coming in contact with anything but spray equipment and wood.. :)

Dang I must be dumb thinking I could wash the whole thing and then stain the whole thing..what a knuckle head..