MMI Enterprises

Greg, That was solid stain you removed and not paint correct? Just boosted S/H or you use some packaged specialty product?

Well..what happened here on this one??

Do we get pics? :) Sounds good. I hope to try it soon too right after I try the RS. Somebody gonna offer up a test kit and good pricing..please,pretty please.. Btw, The Penofin went yesterday real well and good with one coat also!

Charlie, Percarb weekens in something like a half day to day.. Not sure on other stuff which would be considered strippers... Greg, Concerning the oven cleaner for testing between oils and acrylics...Most existing acrylic finishes that would have been used on exterior wood by a professional or even happy home owner would have been higher solid content formulas with strong durability qualities compared to interior products whether they were oil or waterbase. I agree to some point that the oven cleaner (hydroxide)won't generally attack the finish hard enough to leave any confusion about whether it was oil or acrylic but do you ever run across situations where the oven cleaner did eat the acrylic with longer dwell of over a few minutes? I use the oven cleaner for testing interior waterbased acrylics all the time and use the results to decide my stripper strengths or even sometimes to remove edge buildup on floors. There is surely a measurable difference between the interior and exterior acrylics cause of the solids and oil based solvent aspect. ....wondering anyone ever runs across the middle of the road interior acrylics used on decking. I think this topic begs the question what Greg or Chris actually use to strip the acrylics with.. .boosted hydroxide perhaps??

Daniel, How about keeping friendly and realizing people gab..post #105 as example :) I somewhat agree with sticking to topic but if your refering to the parafinnic discussion..Rick brung it up and keeps gabbing too. Personally I believe post #96 is enough basis for continued discussion on what is being used in this extremeley important test. I also think that the test results is applicable to other woods as well.

First it needs to be decided how strong you want it. Like how many oz. per gal . Then you have to work it into what draw rate your xjet gets based on your machines gpm. Think a 4pm can get 2 gal per min. and a 5 like 1.6 gal per min. or some such.. Got to test it really.. I just flojet it on my self. You can use the formula info found below to try and see if xjetting brighteners will be strong enough for crete : ... worked on some ratio formula here: http://www.thegrimescene.com/forums/residential-pressure-washing/10204-12-5-sh-quesiton.html ..or xjet specific here: House Wash with an X-Jet, with recipes for outstanding mixes!

Depending on how old, etc. it might have built in sump in the facility. What they doing..turning it into a convienance store or some such? If so, sell them on a whole package of oil removal and then diamond grind it down for them to install their new flooring...just an idea :)

For sure I totally agree... would not doubt at all if I heard that the same base oil is actually in 99% of all the oil base out there and the other 2% are pure natural/organic drying and nondrying oils. The term like any other fancy play on words has come to mean in this industry that which penetrates with said ultrafine oil base but does not leave hard to remove drying oils. That a fair statement?....not sure what other oils or resins the TWP has so not adding without more research. Penofin (includes rosewood oil) might not really qualify neither in some folks mind cause it might not have the same base that others qualify the definition of paraffinic with. Although a little hokie, the blotter test they have on their site that compares all the biggies to their product shows the penetration as being supperior..bUtya know how marketing is. It's like yea just cause I got a kitchen full of ingredients don't mean I can cook.. STAIN ON!!..carry on :)

Yea woodies get stuck with all the problem situations created by well intentioned DIY home owners.... better do as Ken says and do the testing Bill. Write your tele number with the stripper and they are sure to take your bid..haha j/k :) Think I'll plan on a wood specific test kit consisting of ingredients to make percarb modified 'apple sauce' on the spot, oven cleaner, boosted hydroxide, jasco in a small metal can, lacquer thinner, oxalic acid, paint brush, 3m scrub pad, scraper, rags, gloves!, maybe some plastic sheet to cover dwell. A wipe with the 3m be about equal to mid pressure rinse with pressure washer? I'm all ears for what others carry also...

Try to have various things available....Can be a mistake pulling it out on every job though. Only pull it out when it looks real hairy of a situation or it is obvious that customer doubts the result you speak of otherwise a few things can happen. 1. It may not work due to mix ratios or dwell time or improper selection. 2. It could look too easy to customer and theycould start to wonder why they got you there in first place. 3. And it can make you look like you've never handled such conditions on a surface before hence they will loose trust in your abilities.

Ken is likely right on..Since it is white then it not actually concrete powder splashed up from rinsing and so there is good chance it is salt effloresence directly from brick, if it is really stuck good, or was leached up out of slab and simply oversprayed to it since it is new concrete curing out. Driving water into surfaces can cause these issues or caustic chemicals can cause it. It is not uncommon to keep water on new concrete or to seal it right away by spreading flakes/powder or spraying liquid acrylics. The process is called curing and moisture is purposely kept in the crete. It gets stronger by slow cure. Mild hydrochloric acid (muriatic acid) should work and but sodium hydroxide/lye (which is alkaline cleaning component in things like drano, oven cleaner, etc.) could make it worse. Do a small test spot with both. If it just comes off with the hydroxide and doesn't come back after good and dry then the powder could have been just powder sealant.

I don't aim for this to be a debate or a thread for full on commentary but understand if some might want to elaborate on their experience based answers in order to justify or to not be misunderstood. Please offer any or all brand/model names of sealants and/or stains you have direct experience with to the list below. If you don't know answer please leave blank. (I am not looking for opinion of what is better or how many people believe the prior contributors info. It would be nice to see this list copied and pasted back to the thread with your additional info contributed. If your info conflicts then please just say so in a single short post that includes only the list item and your belief. Majority (or modship) will rule. Please keep info simple as in product name and model... Hope you folks get the point of this..Is meant like a survey or a reverse directory phone book for wood care newbies such as myself so please keep list intact and if anything only growing in list items. Cause you are also welcome in adding list items of course... :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- updated 4/4/2007 Exterior Wood sealants and/or stains and what we know about them water based= oil based= RS, WT, Baker's Gray Away, Sikkens SRD, Cabots (all), Deckscapes (Cuprinol), house brands from MAB, SW, Ben Moore, Wolman's F&P, TWP parafinnic oil replenishing type product= RS, TWS, Bakers Gray Away silica densifier product (non-strippable)= acrylic top coat= outter topcoat/film forming= Cabot's permanent or 7+ year= low sheen= RS,WT high sheen=RS(multi-coat) penetrating= RS, transparent= RS, tintable= RS, offered pre-tinted= RS, available mail order only= WT, Baker's available from nationwide suppliers= RS, not available to California= avg's under $30 per gal.= RS,WT,Baker's Gray Away, Sikkens SRD, Cabots (all), Deckscapes (Cuprinol), house brands from MAB, SW, Ben Moore, Wolman's F&P, TWP avg's under $50 per gal.= can be applied to wet wood=WT, Cabot's SPF initially usually requires more than one coat= RS,Baker's Gray Away, Sikkens SRD, Cabots (all), Deckscapes (Cuprinol), house brands from MAB, SW, Ben Moore, Wolman's F&P, TWP usually needs stripped before reapplication= usually lasts 2 years or more= RS, reapplication after 2 years usually requires full strip= lasts more then 1 year on ipe= wood must absolutely be neutralized prior to application= must be brushed on= can be sprayed on with airless= RS, can be sprayed on with pump up sprayer= RS, can be water diluted prior to application= WT can be sprayed on with pressure washer downstreaming or xjetting= accepts foot traffic within 2 hours= RS, accepts foot traffic within half day= RS, accepts foot traffic within one day= RS, RS=ReadySeal TWS=Thompson's Water Seal WT=Wood Tux TWP= Total Wood Protectant Please help the above abbreviation area.. ..and please think additively..if it seems that we end up getting too many conflicting ideas we'll have to just chalk it up to the fact that yes indeed this other fella might like to spray with this or dilute or walk on and recoat, etc... This certainly not going to be soley a manufacture spec sheet or what they recommend and but of course they are welcome to offer info.. I want to know more so what can be done more so than what can't be done if ya get my point....beyond slander or known dangerous misuse of their chemical makeup's outside of safe practice, that should be acceptable to manufactures and our own sensibilities. Format should stick if you just quote the person before you. end--------------------------------------------------------------------

some sealers can be sited as having paraffin wax cause they may bead water temporarily... ..Paraffin wax is by-product of petroleum distillation of kerosene as is mineral oil and many other oils in our everyday life- kerosene: Definition and Much More from Answers.com Paraffin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ..The term paraffinic oil directly translates to mean kerosene or from kerosene in basic terms but surely what is in the replenishing type stains is something in between the two synonym prone items of straight kerosene and crayola crayons.....lol... my kids unwrap them crayons and stain wood with them pretty good..haha

Who had it made?. Cause apparently Ken sells it and was implying elsewhere that it was somewhat different then the various models of TWP. I also assume that as reason why some one mentioned twp not belonging as a paraffinic oil in the 'experienced on the deck' thread. Worked on that thread heaps and heaps all day and have that part straightend out about the paraffin oil vs/ paraffin wax. I read almost everything under the sun on Answer.com,wikipedia,etc. about kerosene,mineral oil, paraffinoil, praffinwax, synonyms & misuse etc.,..yadda yadda..and oh yea , alboline..great makeup remover/personal lubricant :) Revisit that thread if ya get the time...can't do it all on my own..

Since this really is a thread about maintenance of Ipe decking...here is a link to some interesting info on the tree that is toted as being 2 to 3 times stronger than oak... Oakley Woods Company Profile

3 to 6 mon. gross as long as they good customers of at least a half year or so and on at least a 6 mon. contract that contains proper legal verbage to bind them to you. Real Estate contracts or options sometimes include such with User/Agent lingo but I have never actually seen a good example in this type service industry. Have seen subcontracting stuff over the years from franchisers or 3rd party mangers like Jani King or Johnson Controls but that isn't quite the same as they usually are still in control or doing the accounting while the accounts are being paid for on a time basis. 1K is small amount so I wouldn't worry about it much. Cleaning service type businesses don't go for much more then mentioned unless equipment, employees,materials, name, etc. is coming with them.

Wood Finish This is one step up from what neighbor used...is readily available all over town at moments notice..hmmm may want to try their marine oil on some things as an experiment.. what ya think Rick?

Yea. I sent email to him as soon as you provided it..thanx.. Went to HD and no go on the Penofin brand stuff due to VOC compliance they got rid of it. Am not all that impressed with it on neighbors fence other than sprinkler protection. (just seen that Ace/True Value has it).. HD got Thompson's and some stuff called Preservawood that might be along the line of non drying replenishing product. What your thoughts on the Thompsons? If I had some more brand names that might be supplied out here I may find something suitable for the goal of feeding the wood rather then coating it. Mind you I have not checked with paint stores yet for a parafinic but someone must have readily available. It is dismal out here really. If you drive down streets in fancy areas you usually see either new slightly treated wood, gray wood, or darker stain. If you drive in run down areas you see gray wood, blotchy half stripped honey colored HO jobs, or a little new wood that is untreated. Not sure how suitable Woodrich Timber wood be for my needs as I've heard nothing on how it does on redwood.

Most leave it on concrete as it makes crete whiter as the sun hits it. Most rinse it off wood though as it's main use there is to neutralize the alkalinity of what was used to clean it and to get rid of the gray dead wood.

John, May I ask what product the customers usually opt for and how do you figure or quote to customer the product usage amounts?

update 4/23/07: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Exterior Wood sealants and/or stains and what we know about them broadly termed as oil based products= RS, WTW, Baker's Gray Away, Sikkens SRD, Cabots, Deckscapes (Cuprinol), CWF, Penofin, house brands from (MAB, Sherwin Williams, Ben Moore, Wolman's F&P, TWP) natural drying oil products (i.e. tung, linseed) : Superdeck alkyd oil based (synthetic resins)= Cabot Solid 1600/7600 alkyd oil based (synthetic resins) + drying oils= Cabot (7400,AUtimber oil, clear solutions,etc.) modified alkyd (emulsion/oil-waterbase)= OMax ?, WTW? acrylic latex (waterbased) = Cabot Spf,Cabot Solid 1800 contains petroleum distillate oils/paraffinic oil (kerosene)rendered mineral oils or exhibits low viscosity penetration abilities (replenishing type products that usually need not be stripped prior to reapplication) = RS,TWS (may need stripped), BGray, WR Timber, penofin (brazilian rosewood oil) , Preservawood? silica densifier product (non-strippable)= Sealmax, One Time? topcoat/film forming= Cabot's,Omax, Sikkens Deck & DeckBase exhibits temporary water beeding due to wax additions such as paraffin wax (bi-product of kerosene) melting or evaporating on hot days: RS, Penofin marketed as permanent and/or lasting 7+ years= One Time? , Sealmax low sheen= RS,WTW, Sikkens SRD high sheen= RS(multi-coat), Sikkens Dek, WTW (multi-coat) clear tintable transparents= Cabots Clear, Sikkens? available mail order only= WTW, RS, BGray available from major nationwide distributors/big box/retail= SD, Superdeck, OMax, Mwar, Cabbot, Sikkens, Penofin, Wolman's F&P not available to California= under $30 per gal.= RS,WR Brand,WR Timber, Sikkens SRD, Cabots (all), Bgray(contractor pricing ?), Deckscapes (Cuprinol), MWar, OMax, house brands from (MAB, SW, Ben Moore, Wolman's F&P, TWP) , Penofin Blue under $50 per gal.= WTW, Sikkens DEK, Penofin Ultra, One Time ($80) marketed as only requiring one initial coat= Penofin,OMax usually needs stripped/or sanded before reapplication= OMax, CWF lasts more then 1 year on ipe= must be thinned to spray with non-airless type sprayers= should be sprayed with professional atomizing sprayers to prevent top coat finish flaws or adhesion problems,etc. in film forming type finishes= ??? (i.e.- high solid catalyzed polyurethanes or catalyzed lacquers) can be applied with pump up sprayer= RS no back brushing or working in required= RS can be water diluted prior to application= WTW can be applied to wet wood= WTW, Cabots SPF accepts foot traffic within 2 hours= RS, accepts foot traffic within half day= RS, accepts foot traffic within one day= RS, RS=Ready Seal TWS=Thompson's Water Seal WTW=Wood Tux Wet WR=Woodrich TWP= Total Wood Protectant SW= Sherwin Williams SD= Sherwin Williams Deckscapes OMax= Olympic Maximum Mwar= McCloskey Man O War BGray= Bakers Gray Away CWF= Flood's Clear Wood Finish Format should stick if you just quote the person before you. end-------------------------------------------------------------------- How about some more additions and placement info on which are film forming and need stripped before reapplying, etc. , or things in error.. :)

I mean like we might as well talk about something while that deck ages right Rick? So Paul has not posted since Oct... he is a wealth of knowledge and would like to know how his search for another wet application stain besides wood tux went. Also in reading that old poll thread that quote came from I see that James doesn't like to put on anything that needs to be stripped. I sure would like if either of them could share some more insight on the non film forming products that are readily available at popular national distributors. Without keeping an inventory on hand I really need more options then RS. Penofin was mentioned in that thread by Paul and going by it's name it sounds to be along the lines of not needing to be stripped?...sound sorta like parafin anyways..lol.. It is available to me supposedly at my big box stores (nope,not at HD no more..voc situation apparently) as my neighbor has it in brazilin rosewood on our adjoining fence. Looks awesome for over 2 years now on north facing boards. Sun side boards are pretty dry though... we get alot of sun out here. Who knows anything about the Penofin, McCloskey Man o war(walmart), Olympic Maximum? p.s. - well judging by this recent thread and the south facing boards on neighbors fence Wood tux or RS is way to go-- http://www.thegrimescene.com/forums/wood-cleaning-restoration-decks-fences-etc/9837-need-some-help-w-ipe.html p.p.s. - ok so what's the down the road story now on the Olympic Max since it changed due to VOC compliance? http://www.thegrimescene.com/forums/wood-cleaning-restoration-decks-fences-etc/5053-advice-stains-locally.html

p.s... apparently I not the only one traversing the mountain to RS..

Rick, So far, which result is closer match to that of whatever sales related color chart samples supplied by RS for that color? RS has not yet responded to my request for pricing or sales materials... Am sure if I search here hard enough I could find labeled examples of each color on finished wood but I really need some professional ones in hand. Will have to do some examples up myself on some old boards but a starting point or paper ones I can attach to my own would be nice to show how they might look on other wood types or surface preperations. ... I wonder how long is their turn around on orders if they can't get back to me on the pricing or resource materials?

Maybe check out them silicate impregnating products or better yet do some heavy research on long and short oils and how they relate to the boating industry. Although I don't know how long they last, I'de about bet that the old time methods of gloss on stain surely hasn't been beat yet. There is a very good website on wood oil definitions and uses but I've lost it recently..sorry. Here is my further opinions: Most exterior wood care rely on stain pigments (from the ground) to do the protecting of the wood from the UV which you already have under control with a stain. Now you need a flexible oil (as I elude to above) that is compatable with it. If you try and go modern hard coat with UV protections (some catalyzed urathanes or epoxies are) built in you will still likely experience too early a coating failure due to moisture escape issues within the wood in an exterior situation. Such coatings are meant for hard surfaces like cars and concrete. So shy away.. What ever you do you need to be aware that when it fails and starts chipping off it will likely need to be stripped in total as the underlying wood will have shown some level of unsightly grey wood or even white areas from trapped moisture. This effect has been seen by most folks that bought cheap outdoor furniture done in lacquer or conversion varnish meant for interior wood. First it starts off as small grey spots where the finish chips and then it starts splintering off. After awhile you just end up with dead dry ugly wood again if the coating was thin. If the coating is heavy it will be a nightmare to look at for years and years until redone. You won't be able to just recoat it with clear again. Solid primer and paint would then be only option if you were to not strip. I say don't even think further on trying to speculate on anything bonding properly with the wood tux. Too dangerous of a game..