MMI Enterprises
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Posts posted by MMI Enterprises
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Ken, ..am after no alterior motives or getting at anything specific. If you wish to elaborate yer welcome to. Maybe I should be more clear. By additively I mean I just want to get them product names into the right list spot and the overall possabilities that a product is capable or incapable of to become clearer for us newbies as a quik resource we can refer to..
Perhaps now it is clear of the format I am after... please quote the last posting of the list and add the brand names.. thanx folks :)
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Rick, thanx for the advice, however this is not limited to already tinted stains or products. As example, some here may be using clear poly type sealants for exterior wood decking and their name product info would go in the appropriate list item.
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Thanx heaps Russell. Those are the exact type answers I am interested in.
I dare not be bold and add them to my thread http://www.thegrimescene.com/forums/wood-cleaning-restoration-decks-fences-etc/10187-experienced-deck.html though myself cause I am new to wood care. Hopefully a 3rd party experienced wood care person will agree and add the info to that thread. Hope to get cross section of technical things all in one place if ya know what I mean... If no one decides to contribute toit I'll likely go ahead and start jotting the info's in myself and use it for my own reference point.. :)
thanx again!!
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I don't aim for this to be a debate or a thread for full on commentary but understand if some might want to elaborate on their experience based answers in order to justify or to not be misunderstood.
Please offer any or all brand/model names of sealants and/or stains you have direct experience with to the list below. If you don't know answer please leave blank.
(I am not looking for opinion of what is better or how many people believe the prior contributors info. It would be nice to see this list copied and pasted back to the thread with your additional info contributed. If your info conflicts then please just say so in a single short post that includes only the list item and your belief. Majority (or modship) will rule.
Please keep info simple as in product name and model... Hope you folks get the point of this..Is meant like a survey or a reverse directory phone book for wood care newbies such as myself so please keep list intact and if anything only growing in list items.
Cause you are also welcome in adding list items of course... :)
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updated 4/4/2007
Exterior Wood sealants and/or stains and what we know about them
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water based=
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oil based= RS, WT, Baker's Gray Away, Sikkens SRD, Cabots (all), Deckscapes (Cuprinol), house brands from MAB, SW, Ben Moore, Wolman's F&P, TWP
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parafinnic oil replenishing type product= RS, TWS, Bakers Gray Away
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silica densifier product (non-strippable)=
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acrylic top coat=
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outter topcoat/film forming= Cabot's
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permanent or 7+ year=
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low sheen= RS,WT
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high sheen=RS(multi-coat)
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penetrating= RS,
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transparent= RS,
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tintable= RS,
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offered pre-tinted= RS,
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available mail order only= WT, Baker's
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available from nationwide suppliers= RS,
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not available to California=
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avg's under $30 per gal.= RS,WT,Baker's Gray Away, Sikkens SRD, Cabots (all), Deckscapes (Cuprinol), house brands from MAB, SW, Ben Moore, Wolman's F&P, TWP
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avg's under $50 per gal.=
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can be applied to wet wood=WT, Cabot's SPF
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initially usually requires more than one coat= RS,Baker's Gray Away, Sikkens SRD, Cabots (all), Deckscapes (Cuprinol), house brands from MAB, SW, Ben Moore, Wolman's F&P, TWP
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usually needs stripped before reapplication=
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usually lasts 2 years or more= RS,
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reapplication after 2 years usually requires full strip=
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lasts more then 1 year on ipe=
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wood must absolutely be neutralized prior to application=
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must be brushed on=
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can be sprayed on with airless= RS,
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can be sprayed on with pump up sprayer= RS,
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can be water diluted prior to application= WT
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can be sprayed on with pressure washer downstreaming or xjetting=
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accepts foot traffic within 2 hours= RS,
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accepts foot traffic within half day= RS,
- accepts foot traffic within one day= RS,
RS=ReadySeal
TWS=Thompson's Water Seal
WT=Wood Tux
TWP= Total Wood Protectant
Please help the above abbreviation area..
..and please think additively..if it seems that we end up getting too many conflicting ideas we'll have to just chalk it up to the fact that yes indeed this other fella might like to spray with this or dilute or walk on and recoat, etc... This certainly not going to be soley a manufacture spec sheet or what they recommend and but of course they are welcome to offer info.. I want to know more so what can be done more so than what can't be done if ya get my point....beyond slander or known dangerous misuse of their chemical makeup's outside of safe practice, that should be acceptable to manufactures and our own sensibilities.
"We need to be careful not to post untrue information about products here. Field experience by contractors may or may not be based upon correct product usage.http://www.thegrimescene.com/forums/...uncements.html
We encourage manufacturers and distributors of the above mentioned products to participate by providing accurate information about the above mentioned products, or links to their sites where this information may be found.
Thank you.
Beth "
Format should stick if you just quote the person before you.
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water based=
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Beth, You just had to ttt this thread didn't you? Which are you refering to..RS? WTW, or? :)
Do I dare mention that I read this whole thread and never did hear the brands that don't compare after a year or two in. Am a bit depressed over it actually but I understand in a business sense why it is not best for a manufacture to be name specific on known lesser competitors.
Is always best to speak of your assets and what you can do rather than what others can't. Maybe I would have felt better about this thread if Russell could have just mentioned firstly only how long he expects his product to last or had only used his secondary rebutal language of relating his product into the "quality" group. I am much more comfortable with the straight facts on how something lasts on it's own merits.
I admire how both Rick and Russell turned to accentuating their stuff in their last posts and being professionals of great charactor...that was awesome luv :)
I'll leave a couple questions I have for a new topic since this thread is or should have been specific to the wood tux..
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Note the lumber and concrete treatment info:
Sodium silicate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
..wonder if we can make a similar sealer more cheaply out of the Red Devil TSP: Household Products Database ..anyone know how much it costs?
The wikipedia mentions about how they had been trying to come up with ways of making it permenant treatment as they apparently now have in this Sealmax product. I might be able to get satisfactory results with a home brew on crete.
p.s. -
But oh wait..why bother going through all that trouble? Here is probably most likely an equivlent to the sealmax stuff for $32 per gal. Concrete Sealer, Concrete Sealant - VSeal
Not a bad deal for a 20 year seal that apparently keeps a natural look to whatever substrate your heart desires it on..
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Well I have it too and is the one that says hand cleaner/dishwashing. (read the label also)..My take on it is that I can't imagine it having any amonia in it due to it being meant for hands and for in-kitchen use. The liability issues of it accidentally being used along with autodishwasher stuff, which usually contains bleach, would just be too great for a manufacture to ignore. Many dishwashers drain directly into kitchen sink or the drain thereof. Doing dishes both manually and auto at same time might never have been more dangerous than this stuff being on the market now..haha, j/k ... :)
Companies are always writing such things on containers whether or not there are any dangers. Often times they'll just write "do not mix with other household chemicals" for liability sake. I imagine that beyond the obvious dangers of mixing bleach and amonia they also don't want the responsability of damaging peoples items through sinergistic type enhancements.
Don't know for sure but it seems these days there is law where the lables have to say "contains bleach" if product does so why not for one with amonia? It would be contradictory to what they trying to prevent in the way of poisonings if not.
But anyways.. Some day I fully expect to see a bottle of bleach with label saying "Do not mix with bleach".
p.s.
philip: You must use a "bleach stable" soap. For example: Laundry soap is bleach stable, dish soap generally is not. Also, some chemicals that are bleach stable at 0-2% concentrations are not stable at 6-12%. It's just too hot of a mix.Maybe Philip will revisit this to get away from debating..hehe :)
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If you're going to spend as much as an Xjet costs, why not just get an Xjet?Well other than assumed price difference, I don't know..that why I asking. :) Any obvious pro's or con's compared to competitor xjet?
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Here are a few nozzle: close in 4030, a brass hose barb pinched for about a 3' fan at 25' or so, a real smooth stainless barb that is same inner diameter at both ends that gets me over my roof at about 30' to 35', and a 0008 mid pressure that gets out to about 12 to 15'.
I don't know what the size the barbs translate into but I can't wait to get the 0030 or 0040 cause they are surely smaller and should shoot way farther..
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Ifyou have a ball valve you can turn down the pressure that way too.
just a thought..I am under the impression from professional equipment folk that a ball valve on the intake to starve pump can cause problems in long run for pump.
yea? nea?
Use chart such as found here- http://www.dultmeier.com/pdfs/tech-library/C_Nozzle.pdf ..take pressure your after from top and go down to your machines gpm then on over to the left to the orifice sizing.
ps- Dultmeier Sales Technical Library: product literature, specifications, documentation, instructions, charts and diagrams great resource a page earlier on that site
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I tend to think that regardless of seeds planted and what entity waters them in the end the fruit bearing recipient must be the one to be willing to seek conversion and believe or like the fruit. Although we all fall into the trap of apologetics of this or that at some point many just plainly dislike a whole bushell falling on their head at once.... such is life, 911, redtape, stealing of freedoms, war in general, opinion, etc. etc... .. everything in moderation.
I think everyone here is rather smart and rather wise as far as forums go.
I think all would do well in attempted understanding of how the other forms their beliefs or opinions.
I relate communication difficulties between peoples as problematic but not overwhelmingly impossable. With abit of delving into peoples differing understanding of discipline and how it relates to love and responsability we some times can find common ground beyond the character disorders we see in each other. I suggest if you wish to understand another then politely ask them to share with you their ideas of what makes them willing rather than willful and leave at that.
The immediate 'blasting' of others here in this thread are a bit out of line if one were to consider the topic of blasting another as put forth in the book 'A Road Less Traveled' by M. Scott Peck.. I seriously think that if your searching for to understand anothers way then you check it out for yourself and the others around you...Well that is my contribution of love to this thread....
"Love is the will to extend ones self for the spiritual growth of ones self or another"
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Some examples I consider of sealing and moisture behavior within the objects of our cleaning desires whether they are wood, concrete or carpet;
I picture them all as a sponge that can whick moisture to anywhere within that isn't sealed almost as if there is a river flowing underneith the filming seal. If the rivers source is minimized then of course there will be less chance for damage. In the case of carpet the water (along with missed dirt) will whick or leach back up to surface if so much was introduced in the first place to where it can not dry quik enough. Relying on prespotter and less water is best for carpet and they really should not be coated with teflon type stain prevention stuff till dry. Wood is similar. You cut off the flow of water as much as you can by not having sprinklers underneaith and you use PT when it is placed into the greatest sponge the ground. But! , even though Pt is through and through treated it still contains moisture as it is a preservative against bacteria and not a seal. It will whick, swell, and warp just fine. (or terrible depending on how you view it)..
If you take a sponge and soak it in an acrylic type product and when dry it will end up hard and you can then dunk it in water with it not being effected. However an actual sponges poors are much more absorbant and the product can fully get to all parts of it. Wood and concrete won't absorb the acrylic deep at all cause of likely both it's carrier is not a good solvent and its particles are probably rather big and so acrylic is a top coat. Now with pure constantly liquid oil and a sponge you can dunk it in water without it being effected and is flexible all the time. ( yer long oils versus short oils in wood care). Oil/solvent goes much deeper in both wood and concrete hence sealing better. This is good for wood of course but you have to replenish it as it is never totally solid and it evaporates leaving voids. For my purposes in concrete care the oil is no good as then I can't get proper binding to it with the hard acrylic top coats cause the oil is too flexible and they just don't mix usually neither. But in the case of concrete our products are described in percentages of solids left after they dry.. solvent base usually carry more solid as it is better at keeping things liquid and they penetrate deeper cause they keep the solids dissolved smaller....
When considering the actual topic here I guess we should hand it to whoem ever the inventors are of a product that gets silica deep into things for to densify them permenantly cause everything else is just oil..
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Pressure pros,
Two entirely different animals wood and crete are but apparently not in the case of being able to be penetrated and densified. Apparently also the wood product is different than the concrete product from what yer saying about the needing sunlight to do its silica cure. I only looked at the crete info cause it interests me as to what this stuff is and I didn't see anything on how it cures. I think Reed is correct in its origins. By petrify I assume you mean making harder and what...most likely not as flexable? That has to be the case. I wouldn't want it on my stained woods or furniture type stuff. Just wouldn't be wood anymore really. But hey we got to admit others might want it on their various things.
Wouldn't doubt the same stuff can be found in the concrete field though and that they didn't really invent anything. I've heard about such fancy stuff least a decade ago.
Maybe a google search of penetrating silica will bring some light..
....But to change the subject.. I want to try and make some sense of the whole vapor barrier thing....
Vapor barrier in wood would be no different then when a piece of wood is flush against some other non penetratable (to both water and vapor)object such as metal. The part of the wood that got touched by the vapor barrier would pass no vapor and the part that didn't quite get protected would pass the vapor as normal in whatever direction around it same as any other time. It would not be a thing of water collecting at the spot just next to the spot of no protection within the wood cause two reasons. For one the vapor stays vapor due to the temp that is why it is vapor. It don't condense is what I mean to say until temp changes and is always present. And for two it doesn't condense unless it can have a space to do such. Could be a void next to any water proof coating actually.
The vapor barrier does not fail due to vapor though where as sealers and paints and acrylics, etc, on outside can by way of lost grip, etc.. The wicking action of a part of the wood unsealed would have a problem same as any other product that attempted to water seal only part of the wood. Picture normal coatings used on wood painted on a sheet of metal on top of say a deck. The coating will not fail from inside out(grip wise)cause vapor did not try and pass through the metal and the wood would not rot unless standing water was allowed between the metal (metaphorical vapor barrier)and the wood by way of an air space. Like you could picture raising the metal as a roof above.. well then there is a whole lot of air space for water to collect under if you allowed it there. If the metal is exactly flush though, liquid water can not get in and everything is fine. No airspace equals sealed to water. The vapor barrier product would be similar result as that except it is really flush and actual within the wood. This is how it is for concrete problem situations how places keep coatings from failing in an extreme enviroment on concrete where vapor comes from beneith. And I view about same for wood. a slab or a deck both can be on an invisable steam bed of humidity sorta....Well there..I talked and rambled myself through that to what end I don't know..lol.what I just say?
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thanx for the link...apparently it is a penetrating sealer rather than a surface product.
In terms of concrete sealing and strengthening it doesn't sound like anything magical beyond that of other products. Concrete gets stronger as it cures at slower rates so most anything that will keep the water in does such. I don't think the psi breaking point and penetration amounts they site are anything to brag about and are low pressures to site. Modern concrete mixes with admix are standard up around 4k to begin with aren't they? ..and 5 to 7k for a tad bit more money. The strengthening is important for vehicle traffic and forklift traffic early on in new warehouse and hanger type places and so they often times need a bit more strength faster regardless of this kinda stuff.
But there is something to be considered about the differences between products that are just water proof and products that are a vapor barrier. Vapor barrier stuff is about $80 to $150 per gal. Last time I checked HD.
One thing lots of folks don't understand is that just cause a surface is waterproof doesn't mean water vapor won't pass through it. Some places need vapor barrier but I neverhad the priviledge of knowing anybody that applies it in the construction field.
With that said, they don't even claim this stuff to be a vapor barrier from what the literature says..If I missed it please can someone let me know..
How much is this stuff costing folks?
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They don't strip either. If your deck has a prior stain on it they don't strip, but clean and put their silicone crap on it. Here in the St. Louis area they have quite a few BBB actions. Plus, they are way over priced, almost double of what you and I would charge.Product was developed for concrete overpasses, not wood.
Say away from this stuff and discourage it's use on wood whenever you can.
MHO.
ooo.. sounds like yer saying it is that densifier stuff to make concrete waterproof when it can be made that way in first place...
btw.. link please..or is that discouraged here. I forget
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Scary thing here for me to consider would be that of thinking I know who really would go ahead and push the button and they don't even know it.
Sepperate, segragate, don't think it hopeless over there.... Simple fact is when war isn't going how things could then changes are in order. No one has the kahonas to do them changes though as it may be looked by some as a save face regression type act. I say hell with that..tare down boundaries and move everyone around. Put that whole sorry excuse of an organized goobermint at square one and let them play checkers on their own.. Who here really cares if this side or that gets the riches as long as the world still gets sold the oil??..
This nation building/policing thing is way old and reminds me of the song by Cake called Race car Yaya's.. ..carry on folks.. good amount of content today..lol
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Rod,
My use of "redtape" was metaphor of how the military's hands get tied behind their backs due to compassion modern methods of warfare. You seem to be using it in terms of the stretching and extension of the war by and for political means and then on down through to and through the military as if they too like the extension. ..You can use the term anyway you wish of course...just wanted to be clear :)
I am taking what you say about getting job done so as notto look like being there for something else and putting it in my business repertoire.. :)
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I thought some of you might find this interesting. There is obviously a lot of strong emotion on this on both sides. The attachment is an after action assessment from Gen. Barry McCaffery (Ret.). If you remember the first Gulf War, you probably remember him...he was all over the briefings. Whether you like him, or don't, he's a straight up guy that tells it like it is. He doesn't sugar coat the present situation, he gives an accurate description of our current political environment, and he describes a hopeful solution in Iraq. Read it all the way through, very interesting.About that pdf.... in other words either blow it up or get out of dodge..
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Hey you guys are throwing so much soap in the mix that yer clogging my injector!! :) Although this has been an intriguiing refreshing debate it has gotten a bit personal on each other with the nit picking and quoting every little thing. Agreeing to disagree seems the only way out. It be like the pot calling the kettle black but do ya all think so much more can be said with fewer words?
Rod, Your respect for human life is admirable but at same time your responsability to freedom as I related them to each other earlier in my one post is in question in my most humble opinion anyway...
I believe that war itself has become disfuctional in terms of red tape nitpicking of what not to bomb or who to try and save. It has become too much like this debate in which we must pick and choose carefully from all the data and things said in order to come up with decent minded points and side taking. War is not decent and is not until this past century meant to be clean and pretty. I mean are we at war or not? Time for debate of reasons why or justification are over. In old days armies just went through and ravaged everything leaving nothing but starvation and burnt fields or the overthrowers commanded so much respect through their past endeavours that the people under them dare not rebel. It has become something much more sinister in my opinion now these days.
I would have prefurred to see us out after the heavy bombing was over cause I knew dang well that we weren't going to be able to go through and do it satisfactory to all let alone completely. Shoulda withdrew, let saddam come out his hole, go back and bomb him again, and let them all kill each other.
Policing for military is just silly idea. And if it aint policing and is considered full on war instead then we should be conducting it as such with whole area clearing and upsetting of the system. The system the way it is now is one of don't tell on cousin cause it will offend Ala yadda yadda... Old days you would find it hard pressed to hide from troops looking for you cause you had no where to hide or people to hide behind. Your support system/communications was thrown through a loop by your contacts being uprooted and isolated off in a camp somewhere or moved to places lacking proper communications just so as to get away from the advancing campaign of heavy bombing or door to door type of war. Why the heck do we continue to help rebuid what needs to come down anyway. All we're doingis giving more places and resources to those we are at war with.
In war you siege, starv, burn, or bomb out your enemy until they give up.
In Iraq's case I care not much for stupid innocent people standing around while war goes on around them. If they are so stupid to stand there as casualites and try and continue on about their financial or any other type life they are living in the wrong century. Old days people knew when to run and knew their whole life was going to be in shambles if they did not follow the change of rule. Helping rebel forces would get you hanged or staked to the ground.. Anyways. I believe in much of what everyone here has said but I would go to war with only some...carry on...
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interesting!... I've always wondered how much loss can happen due to plumbing items. I gained about 20% worth of effectivness at the tip by removing rollover gizmo just the other day..was like a freaken miracle.
Now when I get another DS'er I wonder how much that'll cost me..
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Been getting emulisfying strippers and degreasers on me for about 20 years and I can verify personally the delayed effects and sensitivity. The slightest amount of simple green type stuff to me and I get facial rash similar to exsima (sp?). Some strippers will go straight through you and if strong enough you can taste them with your tounge. Crazy stuff!!. Well these days I wear respirator inside with hearing protection while servicing floors. People look at me thinking what the heck and want to know where their gear is. I tell them don't worry I am in the firing zone all the time or boot them out.
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Anybody got anything to say about this one:
Link will be good for 5 more days but the seller chappieboy will likely have new auctions you can search out.
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Keth,
That is a wealth of info..thanx for sharing!
The ball valve switching over to fresh water so as to clean DS is the best idea I heard ever concerning DS'ing. :)
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Sounds like precat lacquer or waterbased acrylic hype. Could be like the waterbased epoxy stuff too since the term reactive is used. Who knows with all that fancy lingo..could even be just like conversion varnish which can look like hell after a short time out of doors.
All I know is everything is oil when ya break it down and it's durability depends on it's carrier, catylization, and curing methods. Ran up on a dang good website about wood coatings one time and it takes ya through each and every product through history and explains all the differences between.
The two very best permenant coatings that seal are catylized urethane and solvent based epoxy period. With that said, if you want to get such coatings off when they do fail (wear, element & Sun exposure, hydrostatic pressure, etc.) your looking at very caustic, dangerous, and expensive epoxy paint removers like Jasco or Aircraft Stripper. Lacquer thinner helps too in that goal of getting off....But Never put a permenant product on a surface that will be harmed by its remover's!!
Personaly I believe most wood should be allowed to breath, flex, and swell with the seasons..
Can anyone confirm a product that keeps its gloss out of doors for a year or more under say $40 a gal that isn't cat or epoxy.? Heck I would love to test it out.
Experienced on the deck
in Wood Cleaning & Restoration - Decks, Fences, etc.
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