JFife

.....I imagine PressurePro meant the deck would have rails, and probably two steps (average for my area on a small spec house). And I think his price is fair. Think, you invest one hour into the estimate, two hours to get there, set up, and clean, and two hours to get there, set up, and seal, and leave. And $50 in products. At $400, minus the $50 in product, that leaves a gross profit of $350, with 5hrs work. Even if it had NO rails, the time might only go down one hour, at the most two hours. Either way, the price is fair. If the "fair" rate for a job like this is $200, why would you even waste your time??

Hey Ron, Are you Vendor packages really big?? I am filing one, and I bet it is 30 pages. It is for a really big nationwide resort, and we'll be on their list to perform certain services, some which is already bid and accepted, just need to become a vendor. Hey Ron, how many employees do you have?? Do you have a salesman or are you the salesman?? Do you have an employee that takes care of biz things, i.e. billing, bills, filing, etc.?? I may call you again sometime---last time we talked you called me at around 3am, LOL. :)

Len, ...atta boy. What sold him was that you were not willing to do an inferior job, even if you would make a profit. Well played.

....Great to hear about your success Carlos! Glad the year has been great for you guys, I am really impressed with your business model and ideas. ...again, great news on the pwna front. Though I don't consider myself a pwasher per se, I still like to keep a finger on the pulse of the industry. This kind of thing makes me want to join pwna, if for no other reason that network building. Seems to me, there are lots of pwna members that us "boardies" don't even know about, guys in the nation that do tons of work, big operations. It would great to network with those guys and learn from them. I think the pwna members that know a guy like Carlos, a West Coaster, should wine and dine him to membership. He is the kind of person you need to bolster that area of the country, someone who brings positivity and ideas, and not conflict and distress. I really think that the pwna should work on strengthening the West, and it would be a slow process, but ultimately is necessary for a strong organization. I just think a guy like Carlos would bring a lot of muscle for this type of growth. ....another growth I've noticed from the pwna is laying off of the people against the idea. For some reason, there are people that just don't like anything, and will find fault with any type of idea. I WOULD NOT WASTE ANY MORE TIME TRYING TO CONVINCE THESE PEOPLE OF THE VIRTUES OF PWNA, USE THE ENERGY FOR POSITIVE THINGS!! There are enough people out there that are just unlearned or unaware that are prospects. Not to stereotype one-man-shows, but they seem to feel they have the least to gain from pwna (pleeeeaaase don't jump on this statement--it is only my observation). That is fine, I think an organization like this would be most beneficial to the guy that wants to GROW. There are a lot of people out there looking to grow their biz, and a lot give up due to the difficulties. THESE are the members you are looking for. Just my opinions, I guess this wasn't really a hijack, the thread was started more as a statement of fact, and perhaps a dialogue starter.

......Rod does kinda favor Brad Pitt:)

I think that is a big step in the right direction for pwna. Kudos!

Okay, we all know Naoh strippers will eat metal.........I bought some Drano last night for my shower (yeah, so I'm losing some hair:)) and I was looking at the active ingredients in it. I knew the main ingredient was Naoh, but it also has bleach in it. But the thing I found interesting was that it listed Sodium Silicate in the ingredients, and said it was a 'corrosion inhibitor.' Sure enough, I poured it over the drain and left it, and the stopper looks fine. I plan on putting some Drano on an oilbase stain and seeing if it will lift it, and if it will, I'm going to then brush it on some metal threshholds and see what happens. If this works, then I'd think a stripper manufacturer (bob/russ) would be able to lessen the destructiveness of a Naoh stripper. Thoughts?? I'll report my results.

Did you get that storm last night Russ?? Holy geez, I was driving back from an estimate in Kansas and am thanking my lucky stars to be alive!! (end of hijack)

Good post Russ. Not that i think you took it this way, but in no way do i mean to insult you as a salesman or spin doctor. That is what you are, that is what I am, and if we do it poorly we go broke or go home. Says a lot though that you are willing to step into the Lion's Den and answer questions from all of us skeptics. Interesting point you make about the cedar siding de-warping once oiled up. I too agree that an oil provides SOME FUNCTION that preserves wood. The Cedar Shake and Shingle Bureau states that periodic applications of TWP 200 will double the life of a roof, and as expensive as shakes are, that is money well spent. Perhaps I am more comfortable with the term "replace" as opposed to "replinish." One thing I believe you may have nailed is if you DMC product performs as a PRIMER, and not just a conditioner. In other words, take 20yr old siding, neglected, clean it up, and stain, and the results might be a '6' on a scale of 1-10. Now, if the DMC seals the wood and allows the WTW color to stay near the top more, then you'll be the final appearance up to that 8-9 range. I proposed this theory to Pierce in regards to RS, but he said that even RS Clear is an Amber color, so you couldn't get a true "invisible prime". With one of the waterbase systems I use a lot, they have a clear primer that dries invisible, and allows the stain to sit on top of it (filmforming waterbase) thus creating a beautiful finish every time, even if the wood is neglected or blasted. But since it is oil, I assume you DMC is not a true clear (correct me if I'm wrong) jon (ps for russ): i made a post in this forum a few weeks ago entitled, "eating metal", if you get a chance read that and post a thought or two,

Russ, The comparison comes from everyone wanting to know which is "better." I personally cringe at this question, due to it's worthlessness. What if you charge $2.00sf to refinish, and with one product you must apply every year, but the ease and function allow you be profitable at .50sf. Another product last well for two years, but for maintenance to be profitable you must charge $2.00sf again. One lasts twice as long, but in my mind is not "better." So the debate rages on (this was in no way a comparison RS and WTW) People need to quit asking what is "better", and realize that there is nothing, and never will be anything, that is going to make a deck floor look nice for over two years. Mother Nature/Environment is not going to allow that. So the question that needs to be asked is, "for where I want to position myself in my market, which product will achieve the results I and my customers want, and will allow me to maximize my profit potential for where I am taking my company." AND THIS WILL BE DIFFERENT FOR EVERYONE!!!! If it weren't, then WTW or RS or TWP or SRD or any other grouping of three consonants would dominate the market, and eliminate the others. Since that is not the case, this must mean people have different standards as to what they expect of a product. okay, I've got to get to working now:) Enough of play time:)

My and Russ's posts overlapped in submission......

okay, I'll throw one at ya Beth......what good is "moisturizing??" I've alluded to this before, I've heard the sales pitches about "replenishing lost oils, or sugars, or fats, or whatever" but in the grand scheme of things, what exactly do you feel that is providing?? The wood will crack and split less since it is loaded with oil?? Oil and water don't mix, so eliminating water from the rot equation (wood+air+water+heat=rot) will make the wood last indefinitely?? I've wanted to debate this for a while, so I'm anxious to hear what everyone has to say (not just proposing this to Beth)

Regarding the pic Beth just posted......I'll blame contractor workmanship for that one. I've not used a lot of RS (maybe 600 gallons or so) but I've used enough to know that is not a fair representation of the product. I won't pretend to know what that contractor did, but a clear sealer would look better than that if applied properly. The decks I've done with RS looked exactly the same after one year as they did when freshly coated. No fading on the floor at all. Why?? I don't know, prep, app., whatever. At two years, the floor looks faded and dry, but in no way offensive. I get the same results with TWP. Like I said, just not a fair representation of the durability of RS. Yes, there are things I don't like about it, but for the most part, it is a great product and definitely has it's place with the budget-conscious contractor that has employees applicating.

Henry, Perhaps I am wrong, and if I am I'll stand corrected. But in theory, if you poured motor oil on a deck, it would not "dry" as in form a hard barrier. Many oil base stains perform like this....RS is one of them. Pierce (i think) told me one time that in theory, if enough RS was applied to a deck, in time it would leech out the bottom of the board. While I have no idea if this is true or not, the theory is interesting. But what I meant was, that RS does not dry in the sense of Sikkens SRD or something like that. SRD dries for an hour, and the second coat applies on like paint, no penetration at all. RS will always pentrate, at least until the substate won't accept any more, and that is because it never creates a barrier. ....And this is not a bad thing, it can be great for different applications. This makes for a great deck finish, and makes for easy application. Non-dryers are more suceptible to fungi growth, but RS combats that well.

Cujo-- Perhaps what is hanging you up is the difference between a "drying" and "non-drying" finish. Readyseal does not dry, therefore it is impossible to create any sort of film whatsoever. So with the WTW, I assume what is being said is that it penetrates, and dries once in the wood. Is this a film?? Depends on your definition in my opinion. For this reason, many say TWP is a film-former. I disagree, but it may be more of a battle of semantics than anything. Like Beth, when I think "film former" i think products like Sikkens DEK and CETOL. Most waterbase products are also film-formers. At the risk of being offensive, you've mentioned a few times what was learned in "Wood School." May I submit the idea that perhaps a salesman that is doing a class on restoration and selling the products at the same time may not be the most unbiased resource?? Not to mention having no background in coating research/theory?? Perhaps this instructor was right, perhaps wrong, but I'd at least allow my self out of the box a little bit to consider that there may be more than one way to skin a wooden cat. Don't get me wrong, I think RS is a great product, and were it not for some of my perceived flaws with the product, I'd probably use it a lot more. IMO, there is not that perfect product. I'm not trying to add credentials to the WTW infomercial here, as I have not used the product. From reading the info so far, there are reasons I probably would not try it (imo). But all have flaws, and you just have to figure what works best for you and your methods/biz. I have two collegues that refinish decks and log homes. Both charge about the same, both use similar products. One swears he cannot make money doing log homes, and is faaaar more profitable restoring decks. The other guy hates decks, says he cannot make money on them for anything, but tears it up on log homes. Why is this?? I have absolutely no idea. But you just find what works, and run with it.

Lance, the job could get hairy either way. I wouldn't paint/solid over a penetrating stain like RS or TWP for anything. The non-drying properties aren't something I want to try and adhere to. Your situation.......geez.........honestly, the stripping process could end up being the same either way you go, stripping the film or stripping paint....so you might gamble and try and paint over it (cringing as I advise). .......I dunno, I'd like to advise you on a cost-effective solution since it's a rental, but man, I'd hate for you to look across the street at sheets of paint falling off too. Think I'll defer:)

HOW 'BOUT THEM ASTROS!!!!! GO REDBIRDS!!! Shane, got my samples today!!! Hey outlaw, what color is that??? That the PERFECT color! Shane, that is the color i like, but yours always look darker, redder. Do you think it may just be the sunlight the pic was shot in??

Thanks Russ!! The AR "RKV" is the one on it, and I don't know the difference between that and the XKV. I'll probably just get a new unloader as well, and a pump rebuild kit (if you have them). I'll call you this week sometime, I'm not in a rush since it's a backup, but I'd like to have it ready. Thanks again for your help, jon

God bless you guys, P and C. Not to give it a selfish intent, but the main premise of the Bible is to love and worship God and love and help your neighbor, and it is always funny to me how doing that almost makes you feel better than the people you help. It is a real blessing to be able to give, and in moments of darkness like this, I'm glad there are Godly people out there that are willing to give all of themselves to help other humans. The media will miss these acts, but the people that are touched will not.

Officer Mike, Mine is the same as PressurePro. The key is, make it seem like you are doing them a favor. Important to come off bold and strong, probably like you must in your day job. We start talking contract, and I say, "Ok Mr. Smith, obviously we have to take money up front, but so that you feel confident giving me a check, I won't require it until the end of the first day. I want you to know and see that we are a professional operation, have the tools to do the job, and know exactly what we are doing, and you'll see that the first day. I don't want to take your check now and have you be edgy for the next week until we show up, and you are wondering whether we will or not." About 50% of the time, they'll go ahead and give you a check at this point. Regarding boldness, DO NOT say, "is it ok to give a downpayment today"?? You've gotta tell them the payment terms, just read straight through it like it is not a matter of discussion. Every now and then, someone will contest the dp. Dont freak out, this is not a red flag. Like PP said, they've probably been burned. If they insist that they only want to pay when the job is completed, this is a red flag. The fact is, this is uncomfortable for people to talk about, so just confront it bluntly and stay in charge. Don't let them set the terms.

I've got $3200 in GM Creditcard money built up, so I guess I'm gonna buy a GM here in the next couple weeks. I like Ford, and have had about 10. My next personal truck is going to be just like the one Don got, except I'm going to hold out for a couple years until they put that 4.5L diesel in the 1/2 tons.

John T and PressurePro, Thanks for the info on the bucket trucks. I know I could benefit from one, but I don't know if it would be enough to justify the cost, and I know resale on true work trucks (buckets, utility beds, etc) is tough. PressurePro has a nice one John, you should check it out and add it to the fleet:) If I get one, it will have to be 4x4.

........3 days and counting, $12200, some other guy............

First, DEFINITELY strip that finish off, and you'll need to hire a contractor. This is an EXTREMELY difficult removal, and many pro's cannot do it. For siding, I recommend a penetrating oil stain, such as Sikkens SRD or TWP. I don't like waterbase finishes on wood siding, and I don't like the Sikkens Cetol for wood siding. They have new product out, Sikkens Log and Siding which looks promising, but again, you are definitely in the realm of the professional, and not a homeowner app. And not to scare you, but 95% of pro's won't know how to strip your house and properly prep it for Sikkens. I'm not trying a hard sell of my service; but unfortunately I am correct in my assertions. Good luck, let me know if I can help more,

John T, Perhaps people understood it to mean, as the owner, the "gross" they take home before taxes. Still, in a seasonal business that would still be low, unless the guys voting are mostly part-time. Matter of fact, if you have two employees working and you are not grossing 15K in receipts, you aren't making money. 5K for employees, 1K advertise, 1K biz expenses, 1K truck and rig lease.......then you've got fuel, job expenses, maintenance........etc. At 15K gross receipts, you'd probably only make a moderate living, but you'd get by fine and stay afloat.