JFife

.....and, if you use naoh on a home, you have serious leakage and window issues. .....What if the naoh leaks through cracks (it will) and runs down the interior wall?? I've had this happen. What if the brightener runs down the interior wall and they aren't sealed???? I've also had this happen. Even if you tape windows before applying stripper, it finds it's way through and either strips paint or eats metal. It provides many stressful hassles and aggrevations.

I do little except log work anymore, so I was referring to media blasting. .....but, log homes have decks, and media blasting is not efficient for that. Ken, I say I don't want to use strippers because of the aggrevation. Burns, chokes, etc. I've not found anything one can wear as protection to totally protect you (in comes the xjet). Have you got naoh in your fingernails???? Ahhh, that is the worst. Frankly, I am not making enough money to deal with all of the naoh issues. That is why I'd support anyone looking for a way to make it safer and less potent. But since you brought up blasting with water, if that worked that is what I'd do. I factor sanding/buffing in every job I do, I've done very few jobs where it is not required, whether it is naoh, percarb, bleach, etc.

Another issue not brought up is mixability. I usually xjet strippers, so I have to mix something three times as strong so it will be the correct strength when it hits the surface. I can usually remove anything w/ 40oz naoh xjetted. I may buy some hd80 or something else and compare it side to side with naoh. I understand and respect all of your opinions, especially regarding the liability factors, and if you had a lot of employees like say, Henry has, that would be an issue. But as far as performance, I truly feel naoh works better than anything else out there, and I know plenty of others that agree. Perhaps I am buying a stronger grade?? I don't know. I am going to research it though and see what's up, just for my curiosity. Even so, my goal is to never use naoh again within two years, at least not in the same form. All blasting, and strong percarbs for me.

Beth, Of course my ins. co. doesn't know, probably wouldn't care. There is nothing illegal or wrong or incorrect about mixing chems that can be readily bought. I do agree mixing is not in a newbie's best interest, i am talking to the guys doing a couple hundred grand in work a year or more. Just trying to pass on some helpful info to the contractors. Whether anyone does it or not is really of no consequence to me in any way. And it is not important to me to be proven right, either. I am fine agreeing to disagree. But maybe if we all quit buying re-packaged Naoh it would put pressure on the chemists/makers to make something different and safer. Like I said, I hardly use these chems that much anymore. I go with more expensive and safer every time. That is why I am going to try Pressuretek's stripper, I've heard it is far less toxic and I'll support someone moving in that direction.

....Many valid points. One I cannot get my hands around though is the safety issue. Are you guys seriously thinking that if an employee of yours gets burned that ES will come to the rescue with lawyers and insurance coverage and assistance, etc.???? Seriously??? What is it you expect from one of these companies if something "happens"??? I think Russ would tell you his liability ends when his product leaves his home. I figured the apple/orange arguments would fire up with, "I can make my own bread/tomato sauce/ketchup, etc." Ok, you use, what, ten bottles of ketchup a year for a cost of $25. You use $2,500 worth of stripper which you could make yourself for $250. Not really analagous. Ken, I can tell you are a very intelligent guy and I knew you'd definitely have an open mind to saving money. One thing I would add is that I wouldn't advise this to a beginner. A newbie doesn't use much product, and can benefit from calls to these companies. I am not suggesting this to newbies, I am suggesting it to you guys that are doing 250 decks or so a year and spending 5K on strippers. Ken, me and another guy had some products analyzed by a chemist, products we had found to work well. These are the ratios we found to work best. You can increase the percarb wash as needed. I am not saying buying this stuff is all bad. I don't use these chems nearly as much as I used to, and sometimes it is more convenient for me just to buy some stripexL instead of going to the work of messing with the chems.

PressurePro, Using your example, Naoh would have cost about $5 instead of $60. A savings of $55....now say you stripped 6 decks a week like this, that is a savings of $330, or $1320 a month ( a decent mortgage payment). Certainly a Wharton man as yourself can appreciate this type of a savings. Look, how many big companies do you know that do this biz that buy products?? Sunbrite??? Make their own... Tim Cross??? Makes his own.... Have you tried plain naoh on wood or are you taking a salesman's word for it?? I'm gonna do a job somewhere near you this summer and you can come take a look at the results derived from naoh, and I'll take you out for a steak with my savings:) Bad for wood??? C'mon, more salesman talk. People say the same thing about bleach......of course it is bad if you don't work properly. Percarb felts wood, so does bleach, naoh, and even plain water will. Next we can all argue the merits of the ole' "oil base stains replinish the depleted oils in the wood" arguement. Hey Seymore! You Texans should start drilling trees for parrifin oil!!

Finally, aph111 says what I've been thinkin'!!! Aph, what Celeste is talking about (i believe) is that hd80 applied cost about three cents per sf. I still don't see the rationale of buying 3 gallons of Naoh for $175, when I can buy it at a chem. store for $25 for a 50# bag. I challenge anyone to use hd80 next to plain ole' Naoh and tell me you get a different result. You can even mix about 10% metacillicate to the mix for a better result (so a chemist told me.) Regarding MSDS, when you buy a chem they give you the msds there on the spot. I probably shouldn't keep wasting my time trying to help some people save some money, but you are basically buying the likes of bottled water. Hey, this is supposed to be a site just for contractors now, so let's let the free information fly: Stripper: 90% Naoh, 10% Sodium Metacillacate, maybe some liquid soap Brightener: Oxalic (up to 10%) or Citric Cleaner: (in a 5er) 32 oz. of Sodium Percarbonate, 8oz of TSP and 2oz. detergent There you have it, I've tried nearly anything on the market and these formulas work as good or better than anything you are buying. If you do ANY significant amount of work, and you make these changes, we won't be talking cents, or dollars, but literally a thousand or more dollars in increased profit. Guess I am just sick of people putting oxalic acid in a cute little baggy and selling it as special "brightener" for 20 times what they paid for it. I was a schmuck that bought like that for a while, until I learned a better way and cut out a middle man. I really think some people spend their hard-earned dollars buying overpriced crap from people because they just like talking to them on the phone, and they realize that this super-helpful salesman on the other end would have no interest in helping them unless they were buying.

If the board isn't screwed down, it should pry up easily with leverage. So, you have a 12' board nailed to 8 joists, once you've removed the nails from half the joists it should pry up with leverage.

That is gorgeous!! You gotta love this biz,

Note: If you do talk them into something else against their will, they will hold whatever it is to a much higher standard. If someone is adament about wanting something in particular, make your disclaimers, and cheerfully do it and tell them how great it looks. Like James said, you do know best, but if they are standing their ground, let them win. My opinion.

I DEFINITELY wouldn't warn anyone. Ever had a doctor tell you, "this may make you dizzy...", of course it does, because it is all you are thinking about. Tell them to be careful of your chems, and guess what, they notice the problem. Staining is a different story, as you may need to have cars moved. At least it is water......think about all the dust blowing from the neighbors lawnmower......I'm sure nobody complains about this, because it cannot be helped, and neither can what you are doing.

For all to remember---there is way more work out there than there is good people to do it---same for any biz. I personally do not get bullied (not saying you did). A lot of time, people just want to see if they'll be able to bully you, should the time come (extra coat of stain, etc) remember, it is no different if she were acting like this, or if she is smiling all sweet, and politely says, "can you pppllleeeasse just sand the deck so it will all look good??!!?" The end result she wants is the same, the method is just different. I'd just as soon work for the loudmouth jerk as the passive-aggressive type. Neither work for me, unless she is really hot or dressed scantily.

......so charge large and go do it!! If it is paying well..... I don't know if you've ever refinished a t&g ceiling, but charge way high for it. Hard to do, hard to make nice, and basically all around miserable work. Budget a lot of buffing and maybe sanding, and you have to get into the bevels which is tough. If you are stripping, washing, neutr., buffing/sanding, and two coats of something, be around $5.00, seriously. You'll kick yourself if you don't. Obviously, if you were doing an entire house this price would be high, but for just 500sf, it is where you need to be. jon

Robert, I'm trying F18 this week. Bob sent me a sample, and should be enough to do the deck at my house. I'll email you here when I get a couple minutes and let you know what I've been up to. Oh, and I've found a new ace-in-the-hole for stripping waterbase, i.e. pchink, sascho, etc. I've not had good luck using naoh on these products, but i found something cheap and easy and harmless and good and cheap!! I'll hollar at you soon, ps---still in the market for a chink pump or blaster?? I've found a much cheaper source for that too,

Mistaclean, I don't understand exactly what you mean in your description of where the problems are, but I'll assume you have a board on the floor that is messed up. If it is just one board, I'd tape off around it, and apply plastic. I'd contact Biowash, www.biowash.com and find where to get Removall 310. Brush on the board, sit 30min., brush more on, sit, and lightly scrub. Then wash off. Will take you back to bare wood, make sure to rinse the residue thoroughly. If the whole floor is bad, I'd do the same thing to the floor, brush or roll on. Important--stop and start at the beginning and end of a board if doing a small spot, otherwise a guy like this will notice the overlap.

think I've seen powder coated

Dale, SRD is as good as anything else. A little tougher to apply than, say, RS or TWP, but about as durable as TWP with better color selection. I like Nat. Oak the best.

Used Superdeck for years, wouldn't go back. Bad mildew, tough to recoat. If looking for something local that is good, stick with Sikkens SRD or TWP. I've used some Cabot products with good results, but they just have too much stuff in their line for me to choose from.

If you'd send me his email, I have some people I'd refer it to. Thanks John, jonathanmarkfife@hotmail.com

.....Had a pleasant surprise a couple days ago. I've always bought most of my equipment from whoever is cheapest, usually envirospec. I know a lot of people say spend more and support the local economy, but I've always been more about helping the Jon Fife Economy. Anyway, I had to get some equipment fast, went to a local supplier, and found most of their stuff to be competitive with espec, and some cheaper! Some things they had were still high, especially hose. ......And I was in the market for some advertising material, which I usually have done out of state, called a local company, and they were cheaper than the internet companies! Guess my point is, every now and then you oughta check local prices, you might get a nice surprise. jon

Hello Jon, jonathanmarkfife@hotmail.com

I think about your approach as well. Jon Fife Enterprises, DBA abc decks, etc. But....you'll multiply your biz costs every time, twice as many cards, twice as many vehicle wraps, etc. Now, let's say you are starting out, one vehicle, etc., what name would you put on it??? Both??? What if you are doing one pw job and one deck job, change vehicles during the day?? Change shirts?? I have no idea how big of a biz you currently have, but i'd think you'd need to have a substantial amount of work coming in to justify this. So, I'd start out with whichever thing is working best for you at this time, say decks, and name your biz abc deckcare, and advertise you do houses, driveways as well. ONce you have a lot of that coming in, you could consider starting abc powerwash. good luck, jon

Doolittle, I think percarb wash and re-stain should work fine. 200 is like 95% solids, and be aware that it goes on very dark (lightens in about a month). I know a guy in N.Georgia that uses it exclusively and swears by it. There used to be a guy that posted on the boards named Tim Cross, who does restoration in the Northern Midwest, Milwaukee and Chicago I believe. He's used nothing but 200 for years, puts it one decks, roofs, logs, etc. His biz is probably one of the three biggest in the country for wood restoration. I'd LOVE to use it, for the durability and cost, but I just don't know if I could sell, "wait a month and your house will be beautiful."

....Isn't "southern goddess" an oxymoron????:)

Charlie (or someone else), Can you explain more about how you do the temp. service thing?? I'll add to what Celeste said, if you got audited (and are red-flagged if you are claiming to have a lot of subs) there is a lot to go into proving that they are actually a sub. If they use your equipment......not a sub. Ride in your vehicles.....not a sub. List goes on and on. Celeste is right, err on the side of caution, especially if you have a decent net worth or are trying to establish a reputable, long-term biz. If that is not your goal, get a good mexican that has his own truck, have him buy a biz license called Sanchez Power Wash, liability ins., give him a washer or brushes or whatever, and hire him as a sub. As long as he's insured, licensed and has his own tools, he's a sub. Give him his tax forms, etc., and if he doesn't pay it's his problem (obviously he won't) and you're off the hook. That is how a lot of guys I know work around the system.