Russell Cissell

Kevin I'm not the guy to talk to about water based stains. There are some interesting things on the horizon, but for the most part I'm not happy with the chemistry and much prefer the oil based finishes. No doubt one day politics will bring an end to oil based formulations, but in my opinion they are far superior in nearly every way. Wood-Tux is an oil based stain and sealer. It is not a hybrid or oil/water base. It does not contain urethane.

First time users have a natural tendency to over-apply. Once you get used to working with the high solids content it becomes much easier. That is the number one thing to look out for the first few times you use Wood-Tux. Wood-Tux is extremely high in pigment and resin solids. One coat is all you ever need when applying it to slightly damp or dry wood. There is no need to "saturate" the wood with Wood-Tux. Your spread rate should be 200 square feet or more. Any less than that and you are over applying. If you are going to use an 18 inch pad, spread the product as much as you can. An 18 inch pad holds a lot of product so you should get a good amount of coverage with each trip to the stain tray. Since this is your first time applying the product, I would recommend going over the deck with a dry pad when you are finished applying. This will just help insure that if you have any heavy spots, they will be spread out or picked up by the dry pad.

Dan We've never really set any limitation to what you can do with the product. That's the difference between a "product" guarantee and a "satisfaction" guarantee. It's my job to create products and pass on sufficient technical knowledge so that you don't land yourself in a dissatisfactory type situation. That being said, here is what you can expect. Wood-Tux will dive through water and bond with the wood regardless of the moisture content. The higher the moisture content the slower it will dive into the wood. Your goal is to apply at a rate of about 200 square feet per gallon regardless of how fast or slow it penetrates. This means you will move much faster on bone dry wood than you will on soaking wet wood. Application is only half the battle. Your other consideration is the cure time of the product. Wood-Tux is an oil based drying finish that is designed to cure. In order for it to cure, it has to be free of water and then go through the same drying/curing process you've probably seen with other oil based finishes. On dry wood at 85+ degrees it dries and cures relatively quickly. It's designed to handle hot wood without flashing. The nice thing is that if the wood is really, really hot, you can mist it with water to lower the surface temperature giving yourself more time to work the product in the heat. On the flip side, this means the more wet the wood is when you apply, the longer it will take for the product to fully cure. If the wood is really wet like it is when you have just finished washing, you can expect a very slow dry time and possibly 24 to 48 hours or more to fully cure. If the wood is in the sun it will cure faster, if it is in the shade it will cure out more slowly. Temperature means everything. When conditions are least favorable, such as when it's cool, wet and shady the addition of a drier such as Japan Dry (available at most paint stores) will speed up the curing process. It's also good to let the homeowner know upfront that a deck that's stained wet requires longer to cure and they should plan to stay off the deck. (Dogs too) If you stain a deck and it immediately begins to rain, that deck is going to take longer to dry and cure. In severe conditions, the finish may even begin to turn yellow (like it does when it is applied to very wet wood). Once the rain stops and the moisture evaporates, the finish will even back out and dry beautifully (in most cases). I know this isn't a very direct answer but, I hope it helps you.

Kevin We got the tiny little boxes in and all of the samples were shipped. You should receive yours in a few days. I would contact Ready Seal with your concerns about their product. They would be much better suited to help you. If you believe it would be helpful, feel free to repost that information. Ken When an acid reacts with a base, two products are formed; water and a salt. A salt is an ionic compound composed of positive ions and negative ions. The ionic bond is what keeps salts in their molecular form. Chemically speaking the term “salts” is used to classify a whole group of ionic compounds. These ionic compounds are created during the complete or partial neutralization of acids. Salts can also be created by the direct combination of elements, reactions of salts and acids, or reactions between different salts. It's possible for you to see these salts at the surface, but it is the salts that are formed inside the wood that you have to be most concerned with, because you don't necessarily see them. More or less, yes. All chemical reactions require temperature and time so the immediacy of the reaction is dependent upon the conditions in which the reaction is taking place. Yes, at the point they are formed they can easily be flushed away with water.

By Russell Cissell - Extreme Solutions, Inc I’ve noticed recently a lot of confusion with regard to the neutralization of wood during the cleaning and restoration process. I wanted to take just a few minutes to explain neutralization from the practical as well as physical standpoint. While it is not necessary to have a degree in chemistry to be proficient at wood restoration, a basic familiarity of the chemical processes that are taking place will help you understand why things sometimes go wrong for “no apparent reason”. Further, it will help you predict results and alter your process to match the job at hand. Unfortunately, I am going to have to give you a bit of background information before I can get into how neutralization affects the results of your work. -pH 101 A Danish chemist first coined the term pH. “p” for the Danish word potenz which translates to “power” and H for hydrogen. Many compounds dissolve in water and alter the concentration of ions. Substances that form ions when they are dissolved in water are called electrolytes. The three types of electrolytes are acids, bases, and salts. Compounds that produce hydrogen ions when they are dissolved in water are called acids. Compounds that produce hydroxyl ions when they are dissolved in water are called bases. The pH scale was developed as a (simplified) way of assigning a value to the level of acidity or basicity of any given substance. The scale runs from 0 to 14 with 7 being neutral. Acid 0_1_2_3_4_5_6___7___8_9_10_11_12_13_14 Base __________________Neutral______________________ Anything with a value less than 7 (for simplicity) can be called an acid. Anything with a value over 7 can be called a base. The further you go from 7 toward either end of the scale indicates the relative strength of the acid or base. Sodium Hydroxide, a common ingredient in wood strippers, ranges on the pH scale from 12.0 to 14.0 so it is very “Basic”. Oxalic, 0.1N, used in many brightener/neutralizers hits the pH scale at 1.6 so it is acidic. “Acids” are substances that dissociate in water to produce hydrogen (H+). An example of a common acid is sulfuric acid, H2SO4- In solution, H2S04 dissociates to form hydrogen and sulfate ions. Some other examples of acids are lemon juice, orange juice, aspirin and vinegar. Acids all share some common properties. For instance the term “Acid” comes from a Latin word that means, “sour.” You will find that most acid solutions will taste sour. On a side note, tasting a solution to determine if it is in fact an acid is not the best method! Acids share some other properties that are much safer to test for. Here are some examples: Acids turn litmus paper red. Acids react with many metals to form hydrogen gas. Acids react with carbonates to form C02 (carbon dioxide gas). “Bases” are substances that produce hydroxide ions (OH-) when dissolved in water. An example of a common base used in wood restoration is sodium hydroxide, NaOH. In solution NaOH, dissociates to form sodium ions and hydroxide ions. Common types of bases are most soaps, household ammonia and lye. Like Acids, Bases share common characteristics. The following are four characteristic properties of all bases. Basic solutions taste bitter. Basic solutions are slippery to the touch. Bases turn litmus paper blue. Bases neutralize acids. Anytime you combine an Acid with a Base the chemical reaction that takes place is called “Neutralization.” This process of neutralization creates “Salts” Salts When an acid reacts with a base, two products are formed; water and a salt. A salt is an ionic compound composed of positive ions and negative ions. The ionic bond is what keeps salts in their molecular form. The “salts” that are produced are not simple table salt (Sodium Chloride) such as is found in seawater. Chemically speaking the term “salts” is used to classify a whole group of ionic compounds. These ionic compounds are created during the complete or partial neutralization of acids. Salts can also be created by the direct combination of elements, reactions of salts and acids, or reactions between different salts. The term “salts” can further be broken down into two sub categories: Acid Salts and Normal Salts. While “Normal Salts” are created during complete neutralization, “Acid Salts” are created during incomplete neutralization. Certain soluble salts (principally sodium, potassium, magnesium, and calcium) that have the property of combining with acids to form neutral salts are called alkalies. Unlike acids and bases, salts vary greatly in all their properties except their ionic characteristics. Salts may taste salty, sour, bitter, astringent, sweet, or tasteless. Solutions of salts may be acidic, basic, or neutral to acid-base indicators. The reactions of salts are numerous and varied. Because of their ionic nature salts cause or enhance chemical reactions. Being ionic means that salts have an imbalance in the electrons that they contain. This imbalance facilitates the transfer of electrons from other molecules. This transfer of electrons is the very basis of a chemical reaction. In some cases this transfer of electrons is a very desirable thing. When it comes to the curing of a freshly applied stain or sealer it can cause reactions that are not conducive to the performance and longevity of the finish. Having said that I want to take a look the chemistry behind the restoration process. Because wood, especially cedar and redwood, tends to be slightly acidic, understanding the neutralization process becomes very important. When a contractor strips a solid colored stain or paint, often times they will use a stripper that contains a caustic, or base, such as sodium hydroxide. After the wood has been stripped the pH will still be very high (basic) and the wood may take on a dark appearance. It then becomes necessary to neutralize the wood to restore a more natural pH and color. Proper neutralization is crucial for the finish to cure out and perform optimally. If the wood is too caustic or basic it can react with the oils in the stain and produce a form of soap. This reaction will drastically alter the curing process of the finish and result in premature failure. If the wood is too acidic it can cause decolorization of the stain or prevent proper penetration and adhesion. In general most finishes are more tolerant to acidic conditions then basic conditions. As you read before, the neutralization process produces salts. These salts can have varied and unpredictable effects on a finish. It is not enough to simply neutralize. You must also thoroughly rinse the wood prior to the application of the finish. Substrate preparation accounts for about 90% of a finishes performance. If there are salts left behind by the cleaning process, you are asking for trouble when the finish is applied. The tricky thing about salts is they have a way of changing on you. Again, as mentioned earlier salts can be created from a reaction of other salts. Because of this it is difficult to know exactly what type of salts you will have when you return and thereby impossible to predict how a finish is going to react to any salts left behind. An example of this can be found when looking at color shift. Color shift is a term used to describe the process wood (especially cedar and redwood) goes through after it has been over treated with oxalic acid. The chemical process that takes place draws the natural coloring of the wood to the surface. This is an unnatural state for the wood and in a short time the natural colors in the wood will migrate or shift away from the surface of the wood. This can result in an uneven or splotchy appearance. In some cases the shift can be such that the wood will take on a whitish “dead” look. The absolute best advise I can give with regard to the cleaning and neutralization process is to rinse, rinse and rinse. When you are certain that you have rinsed as much as you can, rinse everything one more time. The extra couple minutes it takes you to rinse well is nothing when compared to the time it takes to strip off and reapply a finish that failed because you didn’t rinse well enough. © Copyright 2004 by ESProducts.net

Kevin That color chart was just a mock up I did with some pictures that I had on my computer. It's not a printable file due to the low resolution needed in order to post it on TGS.

Larry Can you give me an idea of what the un treated wood looks like? What type of wood? What color is the wood? I will be messing around on the computer tonight, I can send you some pictures, if I know what you are looking for. If you liked the color of the Timber Oil then you will find the Wood-Tux is the same color with just a little more sheen. Sounds like that is what you are after.

Here is a color chart for Wood-Tux and all of the Woodrich Brand Stains and Sealers. Keep in mind that the color of the wood itself will determine the finished color of your project.

Smells like money

For a limited time when you order a sample, we will throw in a free scoop! Sample kits are one of the things that we've got in the works. If you want to make it real easy on me, I'll tell you what I can do. . . I've got about 30 little 4 oz sample bottles of Wood-Tux Warm Honey Gold left over from a round table meeting. WHG is the only color available. Some have labels and some don't. Some have stain on them all have stain in them. They would be ideal for making up sample boards. Each one should cover about 10 - 12 square feet. Send an e-mail to: imrcc1@aol.com with Wood-Tux in the subject. Never tell anyone I sent you a free sample. I will forward the requests to Suzie and have them out the door within a week. (I've got to find a suitable box for the little things) Please limit 1 sample per contractor Wood-Tux is not available to homeowners. I was just kidding about the free scoop.

Stephen That will not work. If you try to add the Hang Time to the pre-mixed caustic solution, it will turn to a gelatinous glob of goo and sink to the bottom of your pail. I would recommend using Hang-Time only as directed. Please feel free to give me a call. 636-288-8512

You can find information you need about product performance on our website at www.esproducts.net. If you would like more detailed information about the products, you can call me direct at 636-288-8512 There is too much liability as a manufacturer to mention other products by name. I can however give you a direct comparison if you ask, and if it can be backed up with facts. It is difficult to discuss the assets of a product on an open BBS where no one is held to fact. Regardless of what you see posted (mostly by those who have never actually seen/used Wood-Tux) the following are the facts. You can expect 1 coat coverage on dry or damp wood. You should apply 2 coats if the wood is soaking wet. The spread rate should be 200 square feet per gallon (or more). Any less and you are over applying except in very rare cases. Wood-Tux does not need to be cut with anything. The finish will look good on most decks 4 years if you do nothing else to it. Maintenance should be done every 2 years on horizontals and as needed on verticals. Wood-Tux is an oil based penetrating sealer that does not form a film (when applied as directed) The only way to get Wood-Tux to form a film is with multiple wet on dry coats or drastic over application neither of which are recommended. Wood-Tux is not "food" for mold and mildew. If you apply Wood-Tux to a moldy board, it will kill the mold. There is the same level of anti-microbial in Wood-Tux as any quality 30 year exterior paint. You will find Wood-Tux extremely easy to apply if you have ever worked with any other sealer. Wood-Tux can easily be removed when it is new with HD-80, when it is aged (over 1 year) it can be removed with full strength EFC-38. I am more than happy to answer any questions you have.

Scott Wood-Tux covers a lot better on damp wood. With Woodrich Brand Stain and Seal you will likely have to apply two coats, wet on wet. There is no reason to be afraid of Wood-Tux. It isn't that difficult to apply. It will certainly give you more bang for the buck.

Joel Feel free to give me a call. I am confident that HD-80 will remove that build up. Like all of our products, HD-80 has a 100% satisfaction guarantee.

Jeff Great news! Sometimes I think people are seeking attention as much as anything. If they make a big fuss and get everyone jumping through hoopps for them it helps to reinforce their self worth. Glad this turned out well for you!

Jeff If both (all) ingredients are branded and supplied by the same vendor as a "kit" with specific mixing instructions the mix (solution) is covered by the manufacturers product liability insurance. If you mix ingredients together that are not a part of a "kit" you assume full responsibility for that mix. If you mix a solution for commercial use, you are required to have it analyzed and a MSDS produced or you are in violation of the law. If you mix your own solution, you are also required to follow all fair/safe labeling regulations if the product is to be stored/handled. Unfortunately, the law applies to solutions as simple as bleach and dish soap. It's fine for a homeowner to do this, but if a contractor does it, all laws and regulations apply. In these cases, it's not about going to court and proving that your solution was "safe" it's about staying out of court to begin with. If a litigious person discovers that you are in violation of a law or regulation, you can be assured that will be the foundation for their case against you and your insurance company. To get a feel for the level of liability, try this. . . Call an insurance provider and request a rate comparison based on using "off-the-shelf" products vs. "home brews" I'm not trying to discourage the safe use of home brews if you have the basic understanding of chemistry, and know what NOT to mix. I just wanted to share what I've learned. Sometimes I think it's insane the way things are evolving due to so much litigation. I understand the need to protect people, however the way the laws are set up, it seems to support if not encourage further litigation. To (kind of) quote Rick. . . Good luck to you, I hope things turn out well.

Tony This sort of thing is right up my alley. Unless you've got a specific company in mind already, I would volunteer time and materials for this type of event. I look forward to hearing more about it.

Rick You have me dancing around a bit, but I'm not trying to avoid your question. Please understand that as a manufacturer, I'm not afforded the same freedoms as you. If I mention another product by name, I've pretty well got to stick to what is on their label, literature, etc. If you ask me about a specific product, I can give you a direct comparison. Before I got involved in manufacturing, I was a full time restoration contractor for many years. Granted, a lot has changed in the coatings industry since then with new VOC regulations and increasing oil prices. I've still got a good bit of personal experience to fall back on. Gore hadn't invented the Internet yet, so I had to learn about products through trial and error. If it was on the shelf in the 90's I've probably tried it. My badge of honor was my Wolmans' certification. I was a die hard TWP fan. I sold my customers TWP Cedar 101 and that was about the only thing I would apply. I used the product every day and I knew what to expect from it in almost every situation. In other words, I knew it's limitations, and I also understood how to optimize it's effectiveness. I learned about the benefits of paraffinic oil stains during the time I was developing cleaners and strippers in the mid to late 90's I switched over to Ready Seal when I began subcontracting most of our work. The obvious advantage was the ease of use. The first stain formulation we began working on was a paraffinic base. It used to be called Wood-Tux DMC now we sell it in our online store as Woodrich Brand Timber Oil. I started my wood restoration career in Hotlanta, then I moved to Missouri. Our wood restoration season is about 8 months long if you go by temperature. It's about 6 months long if you go by rain. It was obvious that we had to do something about the wood moisture content issue. The WET technology that we use in Wood-Tux does not work in a true paraffinic base, it requires a resin. When we formulated Wood-Tux, I didn't abandon paraffinic formulations. They are two entirely different animals. In many cases, the best prescription for aged or neglected wood may be a combination of both. We market or sell Wood-Tux so much because it needs it. As you said, to most people, especially on the net, it's a new concept. When I talk about the advantage of being able to stay on schedule through the rainy season my only intention is to let contractors know there is solution. I don't mean to pour salt into a wound. As far as "making more money. . .," the only real quantifiable way Wood-Tux will make you more money is the days you don't loose to rain. It's less expensive to use gallon for gallon than a paraffinic based formula on dry wood, but we're only talking pennies per square foot. For example Wood-Tux easily covers 200 square feet per gallon while Woodrich Brand Timber Oil cover about 150 or less. Even though the Timber Oil is less per pail, at the end of the day it costs more (in material) to apply. Beyond that, what I am talking about is a business model. You could choose any "quality" finish and do the same thing. If you know the strengths and limitations of any good product you can offer high quality service and results. You can cater to those who seek quality rather than those who are on a budget. I know I've used this line before. . "A master can make music with a child's toy while the beginner will blame the instrument." Skill and knowledge are the key. I understand that you like to work with paraffinic stains. When you know how to apply them they provide excellent protection for the wood. I invite you to try our Woodrich Brand Timber Oil, I think you would be impressed by the coverage due to the high pigment solids. Now when you talk about the new guys, you get my attention. I come here to help the new guys and obviously, promote our products. I don't presume to think that I'm teaching the veterans anything. Some try our products and some don't. It's not my intention to misinform anyone. The message that I bring to TGS is a reflection of what I hear all day talking on the phone. One of the most common things that I hear is "I tried "x" finish and it barely lasted a year and when I went back to touch it up, most of the finish came off when I washed it" the other is "I have so many decks washed and it keeps raining and I can't get anything stained to collect any money." There is no doubt that when applied correctly, most finishes will last over a year. It's more profitable for me to invest my time in teaching contractors how to use our products than trouble shoot what they are currently using. There is nothing stopping other manufacturers from visiting these boards and helping contractors become more efficient in the use of their products. Frankly, I would enjoy an open debate. I consider ESI and myself to be reserved when it comes to our product claims. There are a few products out on the market that have more money in marketing than they do in the pail. Like you said about the cat, there's no reason either of us is wrong. If you really want to get into a head to head about products, a real apples to apples sort of thing, I'll come have lunch with you, but you have to promise to walk away with a free pail of Woodrich Brand Timber Oil. Also, I believe protocol dictates I should pick up the tab.

Rick, My answer would be, any finish that is applied on a job that includes a yearly maintenance contract. If no finish requires annual maintenance, what is it you are saying about those contractors who offer annual maintenance contracts? You keep throwing around the words Inaccurate and Misleading but the best I can tell your only proof is your opinion. You are taking what I said out of context to make your point. I have no problem with you attacking our products, this is an open discussion board. When you challenge my personal integrity, you better stand ready to back it up. If you would like to have an honest discussion, begin by telling me your definition of a "premium wood stain" Then, if you name a specific product, I'll give you a direct comparison. Short of that, this amounts to a he said she said debate that doesn't benefit anyone.

Rick I'm not challenging your success, you've obviously got a business model that works well for you. I'm not trying to disparage your choice of products. I know Ready Seal is a good product when applied correctly. If you go back about a decade, I used to sell hundreds of gallons to contractors and homeowners here in St. Louis. I was speaking to a specific question. "Is it better (more profitable) to do annual maintenance or use a product like Wood-Tux that requires less frequent maintenance?" I could spend time arguing both sides. There is a way to make either model successful. I chose to argue the side of quality because it puts me in a position to promote my product. Many people come here to learn new techniques, or tips & trick for business and even to find new products. I come here to sell products. I try to balance that with general information when I feel I can help. Most contractors who sell service contracts have no desire to strip and reapply finish every year. They want to maintain the finish that is on the deck by keeping it clean and applying occasional re-coats. One reason they may choose to do annual as opposed to every other year is wear. If you take average stain "A" and apply it to a deck and come back in one year, the finish will likely still look good. At that point it should still have the integrity to hold up to a washing. If you wait another year and try to wash it, you will likely remove too much pigment in some areas. This could result in an uneven finish causing you to have to strip the entire surface. What I am saying is that if you let Wood-Tux age two to three years, it still has the integrity to hold up to a washing. I understand it's human nature to be leery of sales people, and I welcome your criticisms. I will however ask that you qualify what you said. What is it exactly, that I said, that you consider to be misinformation?

I don't think the product is quite that good. Close, but not quite. If left to age the finish would look really good for 3 or 4 years and possibly longer. If you are planning to do maintenance, you should schedule it for about halfway through the products service life. So you should check up on them every two years. You want to get back to clean and re-coat while the original application is still in reasonably good shape. If you let it go 4 years every time, the finish may not hold up to the cleaning in some high traffic areas if the deck is really dirty, so you would then have to strip it in order to get a nice even finish on your next application.

Dan In every major market that I've studied, there is more wood in need of restoration or preservation than there are qualified wood restoration contractors. In other words, the demand exceeds the supply. In every market, there are those customers seeking quality. Wood-Tux does last longer and cut down on the required maintenance. Rather than yearly maintenance, it only requires attention every two to three years. The maintenance is extremely easy, and much faster than other products that require you to strip the entire surface each time you return for maintenance. When you are selling to customers based on quality, you will do fewer jobs for more money. Because you don't have to go back every year for maintenance you can schedule more new work at your premium. The customers who demand quality aren't going to forget you in 3 or 4 years. They will remember you and appreciate that you delivered the quality they desired. This also means that the referral work you get is also likely to be customers looking for quality, rather than just the lowest price. In a business that is built mainly off of referrals, your next job is likely to be very similar to the one you are working on now. I tell contractors all the time that if you have the skills and the tools to deliver the highest level of quality you are doing yourself and the market a disservice competing with lowballers. Anyone can come in and offer blow and go services, but not everyone has the skills to service the more discerning customers. There are a lot of customers out there who want quality, and very few contractors who have what it takes to deliver. It is a tough fight to get out there and battle every day with a "competitor" who has no insurance, healthcare, payroll or other legitimate business expenses. When it comes to a battle of price, they are going to beat you every time.

Thats funny you say that Ken, because I heard from your customers that their favorite thing about Wood-Tux is that it lasts and keeps you away longer.

Michael If you give me a call at 636-288-8512, I would be happy to talk with you about tinting our products.

Michael Ken is correct, we are going to discontinue our tint system and begin offering all of our finishes in 5 natural colors beginning about March 15th. The colors will be Warm Honey Gold (available now), Brown Sugar, Western Cedar, Seasoned Walnut, California Redwood and Clear. The colors can be intermixed to create half tones and other variations as needed. Ken It couldn't have happened to a squeakier wheel. Forgive me while I laugh directly at you. I've been told that if you go to the paint department at HD or Lowes and ask them, some carry red transoxide pigment and a mass tone black. With those two tints, you can make any of the 5 colors in our line as well as anything you've ever made with our tint system.