Russell Cissell

Bill I appreciate Rod recommending our Woodrich Brand Timber Oil however it isn't really suited for your application. Of our entire line of finishes, Timber Oil would fail quickest. For dense wood like Ipe I would recommend that you go with a higher solids product like Wood-Tux or Woodrich Brand Hardwood Formula Wiping Stain. Both formulas were designed for situations where penetration is limited. I am confident in saying that either formula will outperform any store bought finish by 100% - 200% We've done extensive testing with Ipe and Cambara and other hardwoods. We found that most finishes fail in as little as 3 months on Ipe. The better ones will last about 6 months. Wood-Tux by way of comparison will easily last 1 - 2 years and beyond. The same is true of our Hardwood Formula Wiping Stain. If an Ipe deck is to be set up on a maintenance contract, we recommend annual maintenance of the horizontals. In this way, you can clean and freshen the finish without the need for stripping.

Bill You might try doing a test patch with good cleaner like EFC-38. Ipe is a very dense wood that allows for little penetration. Any existing finish should be very easy to remove. I doubt you would need to use a stripper like HD-80. Any time that you do use a stripper it's important to neutralize. With a product like EFC-38, it isn't required, but you might want to apply Citralic just for the additional brightening effect. Feel free to give me a call Monday if you like. Best of Luck!

Below are the three finalist selected in the Wildcard category of the ESI wood restoration photo contest. Now it's your turn to pick a winner. Take a look at each of the photos below and then vote for your favorite. The photo with the most votes at 12:01am on March 1st is the winner. The pictures below are not in the same order as the poll above. Hover over the picture to see it's file name so you know you are voting for the right one. Due to file size restrictions, these compilation images are a lower resolution than the original entries. If you would like to view the original entry before casting your vote, you can find them here. http://forums.thegrimescene.com/industry-news-events/8115-wood-restoration-photo-contest.html?highlight=photo+contest

Below are the three finalist selected in the Decks category of the ESI wood restoration photo contest. Now it's your turn to pick a winner. Take a look at each of the photos below and then vote for your favorite. The photo with the most votes at 12:01am on March 1st is the winner.

Below are the three finalist selected in the Wood Homes category of the ESI wood restoration photo contest. Now it's your turn to pick a winner. Take a look at each of the photos below and then vote for your favorite. The photo with the most votes at 12:01am on March 1st is the winner.

Below are the three finalist selected in the Wildcard category of the ESI wood restoration photo contest. Now it's your turn to pick a winner. Take a look at each of the photos below and then vote for your favorite. The photo with the most votes at 12:01am on March 1st is the winner.

Jon I saw that you posted I wasn't sure what the "last" questions was.

Congratulations to Neil Spencer & My Curb Appeal! Your photo has received the most contractor votes and has been selected as the winner of the Decks Category. Next time you visit www.esproducts.net, you will see that your account has been credited to receive yet another $500.00 in FREE wood restoration products. I think we're going to name one of the mixers after you. That is a total of $1,500.00 combined! That should be more than enough to cover your next 10,000 square feet of wood, or two of those monster jobs you work on! Thanks again Neil, you rock.

Congratulations to Neil Spencer & My Curb Appeal! Your photo has received the most contractor votes and has been selected as the winner of the Homes Category. Next time you visit www.esproducts.net, you will see that your account has been credited to receive another $500.00 in FREE wood restoration products. Order it all at once, or spread it out, the choice is yours. You swept this category too, great job!

Congratulations to Neil Spencer & My Curb Appeal! Your photo has received the most contractor votes and has been selected as the winner of the Series Category. Next time you visit www.esproducts.net, you will see that your account has been credited to receive $500.00 in FREE wood restoration products. Order it all at once, or spread it out, the choice is yours. What can I say Neil? You submitted some awesome shots. You clearly swept this category, great job! I really appreciate your participation in the photo contest. You set the bar this year! I look forward to seeing what come up with in 2007.

Congratulations to Celeste Gothorp & Carolina ProWash! Your photo has received the most contractor votes and has been selected as the winner of the wildcard category. Next time you visit www.esproducts.net, you will see that your account has been credited to receive FREE wood restoration products for one full year. Stock up on HD-80, EFC-38 and Citralic Brightener/Neutralizer, this year it's on us! You've got carte blanche, so order a pallet full at a time or a few tubs per week. Thanks again for your participation. Your deck and pine sided home shots look nice on our new labels. You submitted some really great shots and I look forward to your participation in our 2007 Photo Contest.

Today is your last chance to vote for your favorite photo. Winners will be announced tomorrow here on TGS. Thanks again to everyone who participated!

Today is your last chance to vote for your favorite photo. Winners will be announced tomorrow here on TGS. Thanks again to everyone who participated!

Today is your last chance to vote for your favorite photo. Winners will be announced tomorrow here on TGS. Thanks again to everyone who participated!

Today is your last chance to vote for your favorite photo. Winners will be announced tomorrow here on TGS. Thanks again to everyone who participated!

Dan I'm sure this isn't a new concept to you, I'm just throwing it out there. . . Part of running a successful business is picking the right customers. It's extremely difficult for any contractor to run a business that delivers on both quality and lowest price. It is difficult to service both types of customers because they require different overhead models. Obviously on any single job if you deliver both the highest quality and the lowest price, your profit will not be substantial or sustaining. If you want to be successful and always be the lowest bid, you've got to run lean and mean. That includes controlling cost at every turn. If you want to be successful and always offer the highest quality you have to invest in excellence and charge accordingly. That includes higher material and equipment costs and many other overhead items the budget contractor doesn't have. There are many ways, as a contractor, to wind up working for the wrong customer. It's also easy to waste a bunch of valuable time estimating jobs that you don't want and probably won't get. The best way to minimize this risk is to prescreen your customers on first contact. If you want to offer the highest quality and screen out those customers that are only looking for the lowest price, imagine yourself as the painter in the following phone call. ----------- Mrs. Smith - "I'm calling to get an estimate for painting my ________." Painter - "Well, Mrs. Smith, there's a lot that goes into estimating a job like that." "The key to any quality painting job is in the surface preparation." "You do want your _______ to look beautiful right Mrs. Smith?" Mrs. Smith - "Uh, yeah?" Painter - "Ok, good" "The final cost varies based on the amount of time and labor that goes into the prep work." "I'm happy to come out and spend some time with you preparing an estimate, of coarse, we only offer quality service so it will certainly not be the lowest bid you receive" "Mrs. Smith, were you looking for the lowest price, or a higher quality experience?" Mrs. Smith - Case 1. "I'm on a pretty tight budget, my husband and I were going to do it ourselves because my sisters first husbands gardener is having a party for his son's soccer team that was supposed to be held at the field but they had some kind of trouble with the sprinkler system so now we are having it HERE and I was going to have everyone put their jackets in the _______room." "We looked at the paint we want at the store but we were in my car and my husband says I should have gotten the SUV because we cant haul anything in my car, but anyway if you do the job, you can just pick up our paint there because we have a charge account." Case 2. "Well, I've had a bad experience with a painter before." "He promised me this great deal and all that I received was a great deal of paint, slopped all over everything." "I certainly understand that you get what you pay for." "I'm still going to ask for another bid or two, but I would like you to take a look at it for me." Painter - Response 1. "Wow Mrs. Smith, sounds like you've got a lot on your plate." "That's great, do you have a pen?" "I am going to give you the phone number of a company that I think is going to be able to take care of your needs." "You can reach them at ______________." Response 2. "Mrs. Smith, you sound like just the type of customer that we enjoy servicing." "I am going to come out to bid this job personally." "It's great when we're able to walk a way from a job knowing we did the absolute best work we could, rather than the best the budget would allow for." ----------------- In both case 1 and case 2 you did your best to give the customer what they want. You have also eliminated the job that offers you very little chance at success. There is no guarantee that you will get the contract for case 2, however if you do, you know that you are going to be able to charge the appropriate amount for the level of quality that you deliver. There are a lot more customers who are shopping for price over quality. They drive the market for low-ballers. Competition is fierce and quality suffers. If you are dedicated to quality you will find a smaller market that is willing to pay for excellence. The good news. . .It's much harder for customers in this market to find the quality they desire. The great thing is the higher your skill level, the fewer true competitors you will have. When you are selling on quality, the guy that comes in at half of your bid isn't going to get the job. If a guy comes in right around your price and gets the job, chances are he won it on presentation. If you can't compete with the splash and dash, lowballing, "I'll paint you toenails if the moneys right" companies, stop going out on their bids. Stop marketing to their customers and most important, stop competing with them. If you know you can't win, why set yourself up to loose?

Rod Like I said, the higher the solids the more durable the finish. The real difference is in application. Wood-Tux will always cover in 1 coat on any type of dry wood and will last 3 to 4 years. Woodrich Stain & Seal will usually cover in 1 coat, sometimes takes 2 and will last 2 to 4 years. Woodrich Timber Oil will require at least 2 coats and will last about half as long.

Dan You are correct in thinking that Woodrich Stain & Seal is a modified version of the Wood-Tux formula. In the simplest of terms if you take Wood-Tux and cut it 30% with paraffinic oil and then add 3.5% pigment by final weight you have Woodrich Stain & Seal. If you cut Wood-Tux 30% with water and applied it side by side with Woodrich Stain & Seal they would look very similar once they both cure. They would not perform the same over time. Woodrich Stain & Seal will last longer. It gets really complicated when I try to chemically explain why, but from a practical point of view this is what's important. Wood-Tux is an oil based formula. When you cut it with water you are not really thinning it, you are reducing it. When you cut a water based paint with water you have thinner paint and more of it. When you cut Wood-Tux with water you have Wood-Tux and water. You have more volume of liquid but it is still Wood-Tux and water. Eventually they must separate. Now think about 1 gallon of Wood-Tux having 100 units of protection. If you cut it with 1 gallon water you have 2 Gallons of "product" but you've still only got 100 units of protection. Because water (in this mix) makes for a lousy carrier, you will get about equal penetration out of your new mix. That means that you are going to spread 100 units of protection over twice the area of wood. (half the protection of Wood-Tux) You have half the pigment, half the mildewcides and here is the big one. . .half the binder. The binder is what holds everything in place and now you've spread it twice as far. It will only be half as strong. So in effect you now have half the protection lasting half as long. When you thin Wood-Tux with an oil, you get a different scenario. For example if you just took 1 gallon of Wood-Tux and added 1 gallon of paraffinic oil you get 2 gallons of thinner Wood-Tux. Because you've actually reduced the viscosity with the appropriate carrier you are going to get increased penetration or a reduction in spread rate. So your same 100 units of protection will cover virtually the same surface area as the original Wood-Tux because the oils will dive deeper and faster. I am really over simplifying this to make my point. Another way to think about it. . . Imagine your wood is like a progressive strainer or filter. The deeper you go into the wood, the smaller the holes in your filter become. At the surface (3 - 5 mils) you have big ole # 4 holes and at the heart of the board you have tiny little #1 holes or smaller Now imagine that your stain is made up of 4 different sized components. From smallest to largest they would be: 1 Mildewcide 2 Oil 3 Resin 4 Pigment The mildewcide and oil can filter all the way to the heart of the wood. The resin goes a little deeper than the surface and all of the pigment is trapped in the upper most layer of the filter. For the finish to provide UV protection it has to load up the surface of the wood with UV blocking pigment. For simplicity lets say you require 100 units of pigment per square foot to protect the wood from UV damage for 1 year. If you were to apply straight pigment, it would take very little volume to load up all of the #4 holes. If you apply straight oil, you would have to fill all of the #2 holes, then all of the #3 holes and then finally all of the #4 holes would fill up. In a perfect world the perfect product "if it were possible" would have exactly enough pigment to fill all of the number #4 holes with just a little room left for resin and mildewcide. All of the number 3 holes would contain resin and only about 80 - 90 # of the #2 holes would be filled. In that way you know that you have the maximum amount of your best protection at the surface. Too much oil and there isn't enough room left for binder and pigment. Because the oil doesn't evaporate, if it fills all the way up into the #4 holes it won't ever let the pigment fill them all the way. Too much resin and pigment makes the finish very difficult to work with and you leave too many #1 and # 2 holes empty. In the good ole' days, it was pretty easy, you would just take the amount of pigment and binder you wanted and thin the heck out of it with mineral spirits. The spirits would dive into the wood and pull the pigment and resin as deep as they could go and the spirits would evaporate leaving plenty of room. Now it has to be way more precisely calculated. To make things worse, mineral spirits were less expensive than most any alternative. So now, a good finish is more difficult to make and much more expensive. Bringing this back around to a why the heck does Dan care place, the point is this. All water does is reduce your solids content without accelerating or enhancing penetration. When you cut with water you are truly reducing the amount of pigment and resin going into the #4 holes. The only fix for that is to apply two coats, which defeats the purpose of cutting it to begin with. (back to the same cost per square foot with more application time). Woodrich has been thinned with oil so it will dive faster, but the pigment is adjusted to be sure all the #4 holes get filled up. I can't speak for the market in general, but with regard to our products, they all basically cost the same amount because all you pay for is the resin and pigment. At the end of the day it doesn't matter whether you pay $139.00 per pail for Wood-Tux or $99.00 per pail for Woodrich Brand Timber Oil your cost per square foot is going to be between 12 and 14 cents. The real difference is in application. Wood-Tux will always cover in 1 coat on any type of dry wood and will last 3 to 4 years. Woodrich Stain & Seal will usually cover in 1 coat, sometimes takes 2 and will last 2 to 4 years. Woodrich Timber Oil will require at least 2 coats and will last about half as long. If you want to do some field modification to demand that "custom" dollar, thin your Wood-Tux with Woodrich Timber Oil. If you want my honest opinion on the fastest, easiest way to get what you want, just buy Woodrich Stain & Seal.

Dan Have you thought about using Woodrich Brand Stain & Seal? Russell

This is the final week to vote for your favorite pictures in the 2006 ESI photo contest. It has already been a big winner for us. We received many excellent entries that will go on to appear in our sales and educational materials. In fact some of you may have already recognized Carolina Pro Wash's work featured on our new product labels. Now comes the fun part! In a few days, we will tally the final count and award over $2,500.00 in prizes to the winners in each of the four categories. If you haven't already, please take the time to visit each of the (Pick a Winner) threads and vote for your favorite photo. http://www.thegrimescene.com/forums/wood-cleaning-restoration-decks-fences-etc/ I want to thank everyone who has helped to make this contest a success. I look forward to kicking off the 2007 ESI Photo contest later this spring. Best of Luck!

That was about 10 minutes or so, but that is extremely subjective. The more aged it becomes the easier it is to remove. I sort of feel backed in a corner by questions like this. The best true answer that I can give you is, it depends on the circumstances. What are you using the EFC-38 for? Is the deck really dirty so you need the cleaning action? Is the finish still too fresh but you want to open it up so it will take more stain? Pass this tip on to your crews: Do a scratch test on the dry deck before you begin. Use smooth coin like a penny or nickel. With light pressure scratch the surface of the finish back and forth. If the finish holds up to the scratch test in several of the most aged places on the deck, you can clean it will EFC-38 if you have to. Depending on how dirty the deck is you may only need a very weak solution of cleaner. The goal is to create a surface that is free of dirt and debris. If you are there to maintain the finish, there is no reason to overdo it. EFC-38 is not like a percarbonate cleaner, it was designed to remove oil based finishes. I only advocate using bleach on wood if you have a serious mildew situation however. . .if you are cleaning the finish and not the wood a solution of bleach and a yellow dish soap makes a nice surface cleaner. Try 1 part bleach to 4 or 5 parts water and add about 1 teaspoon of dish soap per gallon. There is no way for me to write one set of instructions for all of our products. It always comes down to a judgment call in the field. You have to apply your practical experience to determine the best plan of attack. When you turn employees loose to do the work, the same applies. The best you can do is give them the theory, they will have to develop the art of restoration on their own, unless you want to stand over their shoulder all day.

The formula has changed very little in the past 5 years. There was the addition of the WET technology a few years ago. Wood-Tux is low in VOC because it is very high in pigment and resin solids. Many finishes that are sold in the less restrictive states are solvent based. These are the types of formulas that had to change in order to meet the lower VOC regulations in the North East. As far as the removal of Wood-Tux, I think we are talking about opposite ends of the service life. The board in that picture is three years old. The stain was applied in the Midwest and aged in partial to full sun. It has been through hot summer months and freezing winter months. As you can see there is still plenty of color, but the finish has lost much of it's vibrance. This finish is entering the last 25% of it's estimated service life. At this point there are three options: 1. Allow the finish to remain and wait 1 more year. There is still plenty of color so the wood is protected from UV, It should still be preventing deep water intrusion and there is plenty of mildewcide. 2. Give it a gentle wash and reapply a very light fresh coat. Maybe use the same color, of even go a little lighter or darker. What is important is that you rejuvenate the finish and allow it to cure and seal the surface. 3. Strip the finish off using full strength EFC-38 or a weak solution of HD-80. Here in the Midwest the practical service life of Wood-Tux is right around four years. That means that if I let it go 4 years I have lost options 1 & 2. Obviously, here, after 4 years number 1 is no longer true on flat deck surfaces. Option 2 would likely lead to patches where there is less color than others, primarily in the high traffic areas of the floor. This will lead to an uneven finish if I try to apply over it so it must be stripped. If you want to avoid stripping you do the maintenance about half way through the products practical service life. It's much faster and uses less product. Now in the early stages of it's service life, say in the first 6 months to 1 year, it will be more difficult to remove because it is very water repellent. The finish doesn't really want to allow EFC-38 to emulsify it. HD-80 is a much faster solution if you have to remove the finish when it's new.

Rod It isn't practical for me to address that. At best you are giving me second hand information about what you and the homeowner think happened with another contractor. You provide no information about what method the second contractor used to prep the deck prior to the application of RS. Have you personally ever tried to remove Wood-Tux and then apply RS or any other finish? The picture below shows aged Wood-Tux after the application of EFC-38. It is clear to see that the finish has been easily removed (without the use of a power washer). There is no reason whatsoever that after removing the old Wood-Tux another finish could not be applied to the wood.

Rick With regard to: I think, as Rod said, he is just playing Devils Advocate, or something. There is no actual logic in that statement. In my experience RS is not the type of stain to get tacky. Besides that, being that it is a paraffinic oil, it would migrate through the existing Wood-Tux finish unless it was freshly applied and I assume you are talking about an aged finish. In addition I believe that your stated intention was to remove the existing Wood-Tux before applying RS correct? With regard to Wood-Tux being difficult to remove, I've seen others post that in the past too, but again that's just not our experience nor consistent with how the finish is designed. Unless it was just applied a day or so before, a milder product like EFC-38 will take it right off. Having only used the product on the one deck, I would like you to elaborate on your statement about the products "lack of penetration." It would be interesting to get your perspective. I think it may touch on another popular misconception about exterior wood finishes.

When you are working with semitransparent finishes, the color of the substrate, or wood itself will always have an impact of the final color. Regardless of the product you're using. Think of it as if you're mixing two different colors together. Your stain being one color and the wood itself being the other. For example the Warm Honey Gold Wood-Tux stain is an amber yellow color and here is why. In my experience, the majority of homeowners want something that looks natural. It's common to hear them say "I like the way the wood looks when it's wet." Well, obviously without some pigment in the finish the wood will quickly begin to patina. By making the stain an amber yellow color we are able to block out the suns UV rays while at the same time staying as close to the natural color of the wood as possible. Warm Honey Gold fits the bill on any species of wood that has a natural rich color. Ipe, Cambara, Red Cedar and your darker Pressure Treated lumbers are some examples. Now, if the homeowner says, I like the way the neighbors deck looks, things become more interesting. Lets say for example, they want their greenish tinted pressure treated deck to look like their neighbors red cedar deck. Well, there was never anything green about the neighbors deck so that is the first thing you've got to cancel out. We all remember from art class that (HA!) that Red + Green = Brown. . .Eureka! If you want to make Green Pressure Treated wood look like cedar, your stain needs to have some red in it. If the homeowner has a very light yellowish pressure treated pine and you apply a Warm Honey Gold color, that's no good. You are basically adding the same colors to the wood, which will intensify it to an orangy color. So, if you want yellow pressure treated wood to look like a rich cedar your stain needs to cancel some of the yellow, increase the red and deepen the tone. Yellow + Black = Green + Red = Brown + Amber = Sweet! For very light wood like yellow pine or light cedar you have to have a darker richer stain color if you want a finish result similar to Ipe or Cedar. Some home owners prefer a finish that is more brown or more red. They don't always understand that the original color of the wood is half the story. If you present them with color samples remember, the color they choose isn't always the color you use. Make an effort to have a clear understanding of what they envision as the finished product and then match your stain color to the wood to achieve that result.