Russell Cissell

Rick I think you misunderstood me. I'm not addressing the physical properties of raw linseed oil. I am speaking to the effectiveness of formulations, or finished product. I am a bit ticked off that much of the marketing hype would have you believe that a paraffinic oil = mildew free finish. When they make their case against other oils they talk about them being a "food" for mold and mildew in their raw form. I don't know of any high quality products that use raw linseed oil. Please qualify this statement. When you say "base oil in and of itself" what do you mean? Why do you believe this? What led you to that belief?

Timber Oil (our paraffinic based stain) requires more mildewcide because it is a non drying stain. It doesn't dry or cure to lock in the ingredients. Just so you know, we go WAY above and beyond what is "required."

Dan I just walked away from the computer and then thought about how things can be misread. The joke was that you could come join me in the stain manufacturing business if you wanted to be broke like me.

Dan Brilliant! Send me a sample, we'll apply for a patent then we can both be broke! Sweet

The best way I can answer that simply is Pigment/Binder : Everything else Obviously you need several other key components like mildewcides, dryers, etc., to make the finish function properly but these key ingredients are required in smaller percentages. When you look specifically at the pigments and binder resin, proportionally you will have much more resin, but the pigment gives you the best "protection" at the surface. Remember, the customer complains loudest when it doesn't "look" good. The wood may be completely protected but if it isn't pretty, it's no good. I don't really feel qualified to answer that question. From my experience linseed oil and soy oil both make for a nice alkyd. Though they are quite different in what you can do with them, both can be used to make an excellent finish. There is a wide variety of other oils used ranging from nut oils to rose oils but I'm not sure that all can be modified into an alkyd. That's why I draw a tech support check and Richard makes the big money! The reason they are modified is to make them more betterer and I'll teach you how it's done if you would like to come work in production. The courts found Behr negligent for failing to put adequate mildewcides in some of their product lines. If we released Woodrich Brand Timber Oil (A paraffinic based formula which contains no raw linseed oil) and failed put adequate mildewcides in it, I would expect it to have mildew problems and result in customer complaints. How those complaints were handled would determine whether or not we ever wound up in court. We took the easy way out and loaded our Timber Oil down with mildewcide like the rest of our formulas.

As a manufacturer, I would be out of line speaking directly to the how or why of other companies. The choices are fairly limited. You are exactly right though, if they want to continue to sell in those markets they have to lower the volatile content. That means an increase in more expensive oils and resin. There really isn't any inert "cheap filler" that can be used. When you are talking about the longevity of a finish, nothing is more important than the pigment to binder (resin) ratio. As you said, the binder is what sort of locks everything in place. For example Woodrich Brand Timber Oil is called a stain (not a sealer) because even though it is high in pigment content, it is low in binder resin. Most of the oil in that product is paraffinic oil which doesn't dry or cure. There is only enough resin in the formula to hold the pigment in suspension. So it is a non drying oil based stain. Even though it will keep water out of the wood, it would be misleading to call this product a sealer. On the flip side, Woodtux is extremely high in both pigment and binder and has no paraffinic oil. This means that after it's applied, it will dry and cure to form a seal. This seal works both to keep water out and to keep all the good stuff in. If you apply the exact same amount of each product side by side on a deck, the Timber Oil would offer less protection because there is nothing protecting the oil and pigment. That means that it can dissipate or even be washed away by the rain. Wood-Tux will last a long time before it even begins to break down because the resin cures to protect everything and keep it in the wood. Resins are simply modified oils. Take for instance linseed oil. Plain old linseed oil can be used in a stain formulation to get one result or you can first "cook" that linseed oil into an alkyd resin for a different end result. It all just depends on what the finish is being designed for. By itself linseed oil will eventually dry out and there are a variety of "dryers" that can be used in the formulation to speed this process. (still not really a sealer) The difference is, once made into an alkyd the same linseed oil will "cure" and form a seal either at or on the surface of the wood. Those that would have you believe that linseed oil if food for mold and mildew earn their paycheck from the marketing department. The bottom line is paraffinic oil is much cheaper than resins. Because it's not a "vegetable" oil or my favorite "food oil" they attack linseed oil and have you believe that it will "attract" mold and mildew. I am here to tell you if you take two boards, one treated with just linseed oil and one treated with just paraffinic oil, there is no contest. Paraffinic oil does not dry so mold and mildew spores stick to it along with pollen and other organics. Once you the mold and mildew will not "feed" on the oil, but they will thrive on the buffet that is caught by the wet oil. When it comes to long term mold and mildew prevention, I would much rather work with nice alkyd than a non drying paraffinic oil. That is why I recommend that Timber Oil should be top coated with Wood-Tux or Woodrich Stain & Seal. I really cant say it any better than Plainpainter did above.

Rick Your understanding of the ingredients is pretty well right on. To keep things simple forget about the word "carrier" as an ingredient. In the finished formulation, the oil itself is the primary carrier. Now that leaves four things to discuss. Oils, Resin, Solvents and Pigment. Most oil based finish formulations will primarily consist of these four ingredients in different ratios depending on the intended purpose of the finish. One of the best ways to predict how long a finish will last in any particular situation is to look at it's solid content. The term solids has adopted two definitions in this industry so it can get a little confusing. In the paint industry solids are used to refer to the body (or resin) and the pigments. In our industry it has taken on a modified definition of "anything that doesn't evaporate when the finish cures." I find the old paint definition a much better indication of a products longevity. By way of example, look at two of our products, Woodrich Brand Timber Oil and Wood-Tux Stain. If you use the "anything that doesn't evaporate" criteria, Timber Oil is nearly 100% solids while Wood-Tux falls short of 80%. This is because Timber Oil is a paraffinic based formula with virtually no solvent or other evaporative. If our marketing boasted nearly 100% solids you might believe that Timber Oil would last longer More important to the longevity and effectiveness of a product is the amount of resin and pigment solids. Using the measure as understood by the coatings industry Wood-Tux is actually much higher in solids because we wouldn't count the paraffinic oil that is in Timber Oil as a solid, only the resin and pigments. We don't count the paraffinic oil because alone it will never dry or cure, therefore it is always subject to loss. Because Wood-Tux is higher in resin and pigment solids you will get a much better spread rate and gallon for gallon more protection. Timber Oil is designed to dive much deeper into the wood for conditioning purposes. It contains less pigment by percentage and requires more product to be applied to achieve the same concentration of pigments at the surface. Generally speaking, the higher the resin and pigment solids, the more difficult a finish will be to apply. Timber Oil is extremely easy to apply because it has very little resin. Wood-Tux requires more skill because it is a heavy bodied finish that is very high in resin and pigment solids. Again, there is no magic bullet so you have to find what works best for you. This is no exaggeration, there are manufacturers out there who put more $$ per gallon into marketing than they do the actual product. The fastest way to separate marketing hype from fact is to do your own product testing. In most cases you will find that a couple months is all it takes to recognize quality. I'm not sure how well I did at answering your questions. It's difficult for me to talk about broad subjects without going into sales mode. You know they put the word SELL in my name twice for a reason. I'm more than happy to spend time educating contractors. If you would like more specific information, I would be glad to take another stab at it.

I fully agree with keeping things professional on these BBS's. Like Beth pointed out, people searching the web for these topics are likely to come across what is written here and on other BBS's. In large part being a professional is about taking responsibility. I think TGS in particular is a great place for people to come and learn. It's great that there are so many good people here willing to help out. It's natural for people who want to help to become overzealous sometimes. Without realizing it, and with all of the best intentions, those who want to help may actually do more harm than good. Parts of this thread are an example of that. I think it is important to be sure the information you share when you intend to help others is accurate. Bad information at best confuses people and at worst leads to someone getting hurt. It's true that wood restoration and pressure washing in general is not rocket science, but when it comes to the chemistry behind it, it's not like trading cake recipes either. The following "facts" presented in this thread are just plain bad information. It's important that anyone reading this should know the difference. It is important to understand that paraffinic (petroleum) oils are nonionic so there are no ions to repel each other. Solvents are only one means of temporarily holding pigment in suspension. For instance, solvents are used in pigment dispersions to keep a dry pigment suspended in a liquid for easier blending. In a stain or sealer the oils hold the pigment in suspension. That is why heavier bodied oil stains require less stirring than their thinner counterparts. Phenols are illegal and are not used to make stain or sealer. Paraffinic oil does not necessarily contain wax. Paraffinic is a descriptor in this case a type of oil or a kind of wax. Adding a mineral to anything will not spawn a higher form of life. On earth, organisms always spawn like organisms. Mold will always yield mold. Mold + minerals will never spawn a chicken or any life form higher than mold. The biggest problem I see is pollen or something providing a food source for mold. Adding oil to wood does not keep it from drying out and in fact, some types of oils can cause wood to dry out faster. I think there are two points being confused here. Wood that is free of water is good. Drying wood to remove excess water is a part of the process between forrest and lumber yard. Once at the lumber yard the challenge to keep water from getting back into the wood begins. Wood has natural oils in varying amounts by species. As a rule lighter wood like pine has much less oil than heavier wood such as Ipe. Without some protection these natural oils can be depleted. That being the case, oils can be added to the wood to replace what is missing. In waterborne systems, the polymer sets up as the water evaporates (almost completely). This evaporation happens at the surface, the water is never "channeled" deeper in. That is why this type of system is called an "evaporative coating" Acetone IS a keytone and is 100% volatile or 100%VOC. Acetone is exempt from the VOC regulations, but make no mistake about it, it is never used to lower the VOC content. It may be used to skirt the regulations but Acetone is no friend to the environment. It's a great thing to want to give back to the industry and help others but remember to stick with what you know and understand. Unless you are 100% confident with the source, you should always check the facts. The topic of this thread (sealer composition) is way too broad to fully adress in this type of format. Perhaps we would be better served taking things one component at a time? What is everyones primary concern?

Extreme Solutions, Inc. is getting ready to launch a new web site. I am looking for a few contractors who have the time to visit and test the site. I would ask that you register for the site, flip through the pages and place a test order or two so I can check things out. I want to make sure that it functions properly for all browsers and etc. If you have the time, please shoot me an e-mail at imrcc1@aol.com, I will return the temporary web address. Thank you!

Chris Living as I do, right on the water, I have seen my share of wooden docks. Your best bet is going to be resurfacing the wood every time. Once a dock takes to splintering there is little else you can do to protect bare feet from impending doom. A good floor sander should make quick work of it. Best to use a unit with recovery if you are directly over the water. Once you've got it resurfaced, you can pretty well go with any finish you like.

Which engine is it and what does the hour meter read?

There is an awful lot of truth in what Scott said too!

I used to carry All American Equipment. I can answer any question you have about that unit. It is a very heavy duty well built trailer. They put together a nice package.

Doesn't matter, we like it. Like I said, I think it goes good with EFC-38. They just thought some of the other shots were more appropriate untill I explained that it scored well based on it's applicability toward the environmentally friendly stuff.

Hey Roger! I got a call today and they (caller) want your butterfly picture out of the contest! They thought I was playing favorites to some woman until I told them Roger G. took that shot. You are so artistic. We scored that picture high because it works well with the environmentally friendly feel of EFC-38.

Actually, now that I look again, they don't always come up in the right order. Just make sure the one you vote for is the same as the file name on the picture.

I would like to thank all of the contractors who submitted entries for our photo contest. Over and again in our sales literature we tout that our products help to make your projects look better. The truth is, it's contractors like you that make our products look good! We had a tough job scoring and selecting the finalists. I hope you have fun selecting the winners. Voting is open to everyone here on The Grime Scene, so click on each of the links below and pick a winner! The entry with the most votes in the Deck, Wood Home and Best Series categories each win a $500.00 prize. The winner of the Wild Card category will receive FREE wood restoration chemicals for the entire 2007 season! If you missed your chance to submit a photo for the contest, don't worry we will run this contest again in the fall of '07. Keep up the great work and don't forget to take lots of pictures. Your next job could land you an extra $500 or even a years worth of soap! Thanks again to all who participated and best of luck to the finalists. http://forums.thegrimescene.com/industry-news-events/9242-pick-winner-decks.html http://forums.thegrimescene.com/industry-news-events/9243-pick-winner-homes.html http://forums.thegrimescene.com/industry-news-events/9247-pick-winner-series.html http://forums.thegrimescene.com/industry-news-events/9246-pick-winner-wildcard.html

Yes, they should be in order. Also, if you hover over the picture, it should also tell you the file name.

Terry, I totally agree, it is tough. We already ranked each of the photos based on our score system. Now it's just a matter of picking your overall favorite from the three finalists. If you go back to the original entry thread you might get more information on the finalists: http://forums.thegrimescene.com/industry-news-events/8115-wood-restoration-photo-contest.html?highlight=photo+contest I noticed that the pictures don't always appear in the same order as the poll. Hover over the picture to see the file name that goes along with it.

This thread was a thinker, really got into my head. I'm thinking the only qualification necessary in an instructor is the ability to instill confidence. If the instructor is confident about his message, as a student, you will walk away with a belief in what you've studied. All minds process information in the same way. First you think about something, then you believe something, then you know something. Regardless of the qualification of an instructor the best they can ever hope to achieve is having you believe something. If you believe in what you study, you will have the confidence to apply it. It is only after applying what you believe in the real world that you come to know something. So the question is not what is the qualification of the instructor, but rather what is the quality of their material. Where did the material come from? If I do a good job of teaching you bad information, it's not going to help you succeed. If I compile a bunch of material that is readily available sit you down and cause you to believe it, you will have the confidence to go out and know for yourself. Certainly there is value in that. True, you could just research it yourself and learn the information on your own but what you really paid for was courage. You've put your faith in the same information, but it was the instructor that helped you believe it. If I teach you something new and original, something that is not readily available, certainly there is value in that. The obvious downside is, the newer and more original information is, the less it is backed with experience. All new ideas eventually either die out or become common knowledge. The key here is in knowing what new information is a shooting star destined to become tomorrow's status quo and which is about to fizzle. There is no real way to quantify the concept of "Quality" or "Value" when it comes to information. Information is subjective and will have a different impact on each individual. "Success" is another word that can't be pinned down. One man's vision of success is another man's view of hell on earth. It comes down to what is most important to you. Some will teach you the fastest way to make a buck, all be damned but you. Some will teach you to believe in what benefits the teacher most. Some will teach you quality to the point of diminishing returns. Some will teach you the key is finding joy in what you do. Many will teach you a little bit of everything. To boil this rambling bit of opinion down to a single statement I would say. . . Go with your gut, if you get a bad feeling about something run, if it feels right stick around a while. But that's the same advise I give about everything.

Out of respect for our hostess and others who've made the request, I am extending the deadline for entry until after the holidays. Feel free to post your entries through Jan 2, 2007. We will select the finalists and post them for voting the following Monday, January 8th.

It's Cold.

This is a close up of the iron rail panels. This deck was cleaned with EFC-38 and stained with Woodrich Stain & Seal

If you have any trouble accessing the chat, feel free to give me a call at 636-288-8512

If there is something specific you would like to discuss or you have any questions, feel free to post them here ahead of time. I will make sure to have my notes prepared so that we can cover your topic. Look forward to seeing you there!