Everett Abrams

If you have mold and mildew you need something to kill off the mold or mildew or you are inviting adhesion problems. You need a chem that does this and I am sorry but no matter how you slice it "detergent, water, and pressure" isn't the answer. I just so happen to know a bit about IPE and wood restoration as well and while I commend folks for trying to think out of the box this just doesn't work. Tests have proven even with bleach being used you will not remove 100% of the mold and mildew, so why would you NOT use it? Is there something better? If you want to talk conventional versus unconventional you can read my post on the Deck Guide. Why are you even coating the IPE at all? If you have oiled the ends and installed it correctly then let it gray out. Bleach and clean when you are having your company over, because of all the characteristics you mention. By the way about unconventional, have you tried mineral oil and offer to do it more often. Mineral oil is a penetrating oil and was actually used in the old, old Thompson product. Many expert opinions are that this is the best oil for wood but because it is so penetrating you need to do it a couple of times a season. Because the wood is different I can understand why you would consider doing something different for the coating. For cleaning, mold and mildew is mold and mildew and you get rid of it the same way.

In the initial post mold was mentioned, this should be an instant trigger that a bleach or stripper(when mold and mildew are heavy) should be used. Also as Beth mentioned it is NEVER the right choice to just use water and coat the wood. Mold and mildew spores do not take very long to attach to the wood.

It has been my experience that the Timber Oil Natural WILL NOT hold up more than about 18 months on mahogany. The other three seem to outperform the natural. The reason I bring it up is it is better to set the expectation for the customer now and not when they call you back to do work for free. I do feel this is the best natural finish to put on mahogany if that is their preference.

None of these products will ever be endorsed to be "better" than wood as it stands today. They are all inferior and if it has wood content in it it needs a preservative. It was VERY irresponsible for these companies to promote their products as they did and are now retracting most, if not all, of their initial recommendations. I have seen where these products have been tested and ALL of them had significant issues in regards to mold and mildew. The problem now is that these companies have a lot of money resources to market their products. Think of composites as the equivilant of Thompson's in the coatings products.

Latex outperforms acrylic everytime.

glock40, At least you are here and moving forward are trying to better yourself. I see contractors out there blasting away each week. The worst part of this is when you try and talk to them they come off with a higher than mighty attitude and the conversation dead ends, that is ignorance. Good luck in your learning and if I can be of any help I meant what I stated earlier, just give a call.

I sincerely hope this does not start something but I can not let this go by. I hope others that read this post will learn from it moving forward. glock 40 while I respect your entrepeneurship it is this type of practice that is hurting the industry and giving professionals a black eye. Before any of the "you have to learn sometime" folks jump on the bandwagon here I want to be a constructive critic. glock 40 before you have even done ONE deck, even if it was your own, you should have educated yourself prior to asking these questions. It is my opinion that anyone using 3200 psi on a deck is a "vandal" providing "vandalism" as a service, and not wood restoration. My advice would be to stop and use the search functions on the bulletin boards, try to team up with a local contractor, take a class, or make some calls to helpful contractors. As dk34 mentioned about chemicals, it would be beneficial to learn more about them and their applications in wood restoration along with safety practices. I would be more than happy to help you. I would rather help than see the post you made with the practices you seem to be using. If I am misinterpreting any of the information I apologize, my reply is meant to be helpful.

I have seen what Jim is talking about in tests and it IS THE OPTIMAL way to restore wood. The problem is that it is extra time and time is money. Most people won't pay this amount for their deck because they are also skeptical of just how long it will last. Wood preservatives followed by film formers out perform any other method or way.

Celeste, Sorry I am just getting back to you. You are correct about Cabot not being as forgiving. I use mostly brush application and use the Bestt-Liebco Chinese Bristle Brushes. I have found these to be the best on the market and also have a threaded handle so that you can interchange with any extension pole or broom handle.

Ken, Only if this is done with a wet on dry coat. Once this product has dried you can not go over it as it will not get into the wood leaving it ideal for mold and mildew growth. The other thing is not to leave excess, it really needs to be worked evenly.

Jim Foley should answer this as I think he has now become a SuperDeck sales rep! LOL

I believe if you are still seeing the 1400 series you are getting the old product that was in inventory before the change in VOC regulations. I will caution anyone who has used Cabots that all the new products ARE a different color than the old. Forget about a maintenance coat! You will end up doing spindles on repeat work to match the floor. I found out the hard way myself! Cabot has told you about their semi's and that they were not made for horizontal surfaces. I will tell you though, that I have done some decks with it(semi's) for testing myself and have found the same results as Ken. It may not last as long but it performs reasonably well and shows more grain. In any event, the decking stains are more along the lines of a semi-solid and are intermixed with the clears. I am not aware of any 1400 series clear. The only clears are in the 3000 series and the Timber Oils. I intermix the Timber Oil Natural with decking stains 50/50 and have had some unbelievable results in color retention and durability. It is harder to match these up though when doing repeat maintenance because of intermixing and the degradation of the product over a couple years or so. You should easily achieve over two years with intermixing.

The "Aussie Oil" works well on any wood. Cabot won't release their findings because it would eliminate a line brand of their product but they have tested it soft woods. The Timber Oils last longer and out perform their 3000 series on soft woods. I have gone to decks that have lasted three years. It is easier to maintain and recoat these decks because the Timber Oils are more penetrating than the 3000 series. Another nice feature of a more pentrating product on softwoods like cedar is that since it is made for hardwoods it provides a more even coat around the knotty areas that the other products leave more inconsistent.

I think you are mistaken on your intermixing of the products. The old 1400 series (which is now the 7400 series) can be intermxed with the clear solutuion to achieve the result you are looking for. You should not use the semi-transparent on the horizontal decking surface. The recommendation is what I have stated above. If you are still unsure you should call Cabot and find a "certified dealer" in your area and not just an outlet that sells their products, there is a difference in support and knowledge.

I do not know where you all are coming up with your statistics. I have seen in tests where there is no significant difference, on mold and mildew, in performance between 5% and 2.5%-3%. The stronger the chemical the more damage can be done to the substrate and of course you are spending more money. I also have never heard of the losses in percentage that are mentioned at these rates. Conditions also play an important part in this equation as to where they are stored and the temperature in that storage, in regards to its degradation. I would agree with Pete's recommendation.

Yes, I have done this and it came out very nice. We used a yellow solid stain and put a sunburst in the floor of the decking. The body of this deck was done with Cabot Natural Cedar 3000 series. The customer provided the pattern and it was time consuming. Charge good money for this as their is an extra day involved. Sorry I have no picture. If I go by there this coming week I'll take a picture of what is left. It was done about three years ago.

Sodium Hydroxide will aid in the removal of mold and mildew. Understand in tests that NO chemical removes 100% of the mold and mildew anyway. When there is heavy mold and mildew there are usually a lot of other factors involved like dirt and debris as well. Bleach will react with the first thing it comes in contact with. More often than not on decks in this condition you would end up washing twice with bleach to get the desired finished product. I agree and practice what Ken stated, go right to the stripper and just weaken your dilution. Saves time and if mixed right will not fur up the deck, be careful of what Beth said though and do not mix it like you were removing a stain or sealer.

Very technical thread going here, good stuff. This link should help as well: http://www.intox.org/databank/documents/chemical/petdis/cie803.htm

More pigmentation, more product closer to the surface, harder to maintain. Eye candy is one thing, what is good for the wood may be another. The debate rages on!

Celeste, I was more talking about positive public perception than VOC compliance. Since you mentioned it though, ALL products that were not compliant before the new regulations took effect this year they had to be reformulated. To my knowledge Ready Seal WAS NOT reformulated as it had already met the new VOC requirements prior to this taking effect.

I would say that if it isn't an oil it should not go on the deck, this is my opinion. What drips or oversprays in the environment is insignificant(as I have been told by EPA reps). So this push for water-based products and one day deck products are what is easier for the consumer or the contractor and more politically correct and not neccessarily best for the wood. This is only my opinion and I am sure I am still a bit "old school" when it comes to this but until proven different I'll stick with the oils. Future maintanence of a water based product can also be challenging. To answer your question about mixing the water based products I would say they mix well in my dumpster!

To use a "Foleyism" "Grin and Behr it!"

jnoden, The decking stain you used was probably the 7400 series(this is the old 1400 series) that is their decking stain. It has teflon and other additives in it that their semi-transparent does not have. Cabot's decking stain is more opaque than most semi-transparents. The scenario you speak of when combining equal parts clear and the decking stain is called intermixing. Intermixing of these products can bring great results in appearance. You should also be able to spray the intermixed product through an HVLP type of sprayer. If you are going to be using the decking stains or any solids you would be wise to invest in an airless sprayer. The HVLP sprayers work much better on the 3000 series and Timber Oil products than the heavier pigmented stain lines. Another word of caution when intermixing is to keep track of how you intermix so that future maintenance is not an issue. I ALWAYS intermix at 50/50 with these products. A word of caution that Beth touched on, is that there are two different types of Cabot Dealers. There are regular dealers/distributors and there are certified dealers/distributors. The certified dealers are the ones with the knowledge and good advice. I once had a situation where a regular dealer gave out the problem solver primer and then gave them the 1400 decking stain for the finish coat, which was the wrong product to use. When you contact Cabot ask them for a certified dealer in your area. Also, if you call and are going to use this product you can request a contractor's operational book that they have. It has a lot of good information in it.

I am glad that you, Roger, and the kids are okay. I see the house is all right too. You are very lucky, apparently someone is looking out for you! Be well.

Scott, I have heard you long enough. Your comment about convincing me about non-members is ridiculous. You haven't even been in the business long enough to comment about me with that statement. For those thinking that I am stating anything about length of time in business being significant, I am not, I am using it as a reference. Scott, before there was your company I was having Roundtables for members and non-members. Most of these people were non-members. I have and continue to help non-members all over many of who have come to my place and worked with me and my crews. I do not go around publicizing what I do and who I help, that is my choice. You have no right to get on this Bulletin Board or and other forum and speak about what you know nothing about. I made a choice to join the PWNA because I felt if I was going to be critical of the organization, which I was, that I would get involved. What have I done? I have put my money where my mouth was! I was told educating people by taking Boot Camps on the road wouldn't work(We had over 100 people attend Boot Camps last year). I was told Roundtables would die out, now evolving into Chapters). I was one of the folks who was organizing these things back when(Do some searches on *** or The Deck Guide). These programs are for non-members and the industry. I have always been about the industry and not creating a club! I really do not know how you can even comment about what my views are because you do not know me and have never picked up the phone to find out, it is a toll free number! I will be at Steve's Roundtable I hope you will be there so we can meet in person and you will get the stroy straight. By the way Steve and I are friendly and last I checked he is still a non-member, that doesn't stop us from picking up the phone and being friends in this industry. By the way, out of respect for Beth and Rod's Bulletin Board and keeping it professional I will not continue to post on this thread any responses. Those that want to talk to me can call me directly for one-on-one conversation. My toll free number is in my signature, I will even post my cell number for the first time (609)351-6117. This offer is for ANYONE in the industry who wants to talk the door has always been and will continue to be open!