Everett Abrams

Not trying to step on anyone's toes but, the above info is incorrect. Honda warranty threads have been on the various BB's before. Not all Honda dealers will do the small engine work. In my area I have two honda dealerships within 30 minutes of me and neither do the work. There is a small engine person 20 minutes away that performs their warranty work. The last time I checked the next two closest were out of state. When I contacted Honda previously they recommended I get it fixed and submit the receipt for reimbursement, if I were to use someone else. I would say the best way would be to call Honda first and ask them exactly who in your area does warranty work. I personally like Honda engines but, I have had to have repairs done while the motor was still under warranty, twice. It may be fine in some areas but I did speak to an area manager in Philadelphia, who was responsible for my area, it certainly wasn't the case here.

It is very long and getting longer. Great stuff though. John T. should be commended for putting his neck out there. It has been very professional with NO bashing.

Paul, You are talking about educating customers and giving them options. You can't do this. Don't you know that the less they know the better? (Sarcastic Humor HaHa) I couldn't agree more and you are right this thread could end up turning into a novel on the misconception topics. One thing I have done is make up hand-outs to give to my customers as it relates to the bid. The perception being that it is much easier for them to believe the printed word over the spoken word. Examples are; Water Beading, Sealers vs. Semi's vs. Solids, Artillery Fungus, etc. I couldn't agree more in giving customers options and education. I also like to offer options but, I do have a slightly different take on this. I know a guy out here who does body work and paints vehicles. He told me once that he will only do work one way, the right way. Regardless of price you either pay or you don't. Reason is this, he doesn't want anyone to see his work that is offered at a lesser price and/or quality because this is how he feels the dialogue will go. "Hey, I see the paint on your car is bubbling (coming off) a bit. Didn't you just get it painted a year ago." Reply, "Yes I did." "Who painted it?" Reply, "ABC Company." You don't hear them say that they paid less to get less of a job. Then that other person goes around and says that he saw so and so's car and ABC company did it don't use them. He feels if he does the work one way NO ONE can ever say that about him and his company because he will only do work one way at one price. There is a point to that because when people look at the house, deck or fence I just did and saw my trucks out there they may think if it fails in a year (or before it should) then that is the type of work I do. They don't know that the customer paid for a lesser job or only part of the job. Perceptions, perceptions, perceptions. This is good stuff.

Earl, It has been found that in some cases of hardwoods that the tannins will react with the oils in an oil-based product. This will cause the black spots you have mentioned. I have had the same problem on a door and the same thing occured. I sanded it and it looked great and even, applied marine varnish and looked great. Came back the next day and I was sick to my stomach. There are products out there that you apply to the surface first to block this occurance and leave the end result looking even and right. You find these products at any boat or marina store. The product I used was from Zinnser but there are other stain blockers other than that. This is common used product when refinishing boat surfaces. Unfortunately, you'll have to restrip and neutralize again. If you would like e-mail me and I'll give more detailed info eabrams@deckrestorationplus.com

Paul B, Boy, isn't it the hardest part getting through the customers "misconceptions." They have been so clouded by unprofessionals and the "guy at Home Depot" it is difficult to tell them anything different. They assume we are trying to sell them something that either isn't true OR doesn't matter. I have had the same issue pop up about the primer and being used with an acrylic, only a couple of time though. Just my opinion but, the problem solver makes all the difference. I have never had a problem when using this product. Many of the failed coatings I run into have much to do with no primer used. Many contractors shortcut here because they think that the verticals take longer to wear that they don't need the primer, WRONG. You hit those reasons very well, I would add that there are still folks out ther doing this work and not using a moisture meter. To me this is unexcusable, specifically at this time of year and in the spring. I will say that I have used a low-temp paint before on wood surfaces (down to 35 degrees) and it held up. This was on trim about 6 years ago, I had to try it. Paul, sometimes I feel that contractors are out there intentionally UNDER guaranteeing projects and lowering expectations so that they can come back every year , or sooner than they should, just to take more money. Sad to say but, I know of one contractor in my area that does this. They tell all their customers that there is NO prodoct that is going to last more than a year and they have to come back every year. They do this with semi's also. I guess you call this job security. Anyway another great response and thread by you.

Paul B., Let me start over I didn't explain it well. If I use the Pro.V.T. I Use a tinted primer as the first coat and the PRO.V.T. as the finish coat (on new wood). That is supposed to be the advantage of the PRO.V.T., one coat on new wood - no primer. I use the primer anyway. If they want a 12 year guarantee, I always give ranges that's why I throw in the 10-12 just my way, that is specifically mentioned in both the PRO.V.T. and the Solid O.V.T. warrantys. Then they must have a primer coat and two finish coats. I honestly have no way of knowing at this point whether or not the PRO.V.T. is going to last 12 years because it hasn't been around that long. In summary, if I am going to give the customer the option of the12 year warranty then they get a primer, two finish coats and they pay the extra. If I am applying less coats, less money. Paul, have you noticed before the PRO.V.T. that on their solids they only offered the guarantee with the Solid O.V.T. Acrylic Stain and not the Solid Oil Stain 6500 series? The PRO.V.T. finish is flat. I hope I did better this time.

Paul, What I have done is give them a higher price option using the Pro V.T. , that way it is there decision and I am getting paid for using the "better" product. Cabot is the one guaranteeing the product for 10-12 years. I basically tell them that it is less they'll have to worry about except for maintenance cleaning, just some thoughts. These two tone decks are really becoming popular and people are paying the extra.

Paul, I use alot of Cabot Products. If you are talking about the verticals I very rarely need three coats. I have the primer tinted the same color I am using and then a finish coat. That third coat is taking your time up. I don't see a reason for that on verticals. Are you using the tint base system? With that being said though lighter color, like white, I usually end up with a third coat. I used the Pro V.T. for the first time last year. Checked it out this year, no problem. That is supposed to be a one-coat application on new or bare wood, primer coat if going over an existing coating. Reed isn't the only one I have heard good things about Cuprinol also. I haven't ried much different on the solids because of how well Cabot's lasts. If the costs go up I just build into the price and let the customer pay for it, I will never sacrifice quality for any reason. I don't know if this is a help, I hope so though.

A lot of great posts and responses. There is certainly a lot of involvement by many. The best part is there is a bit of everything covered in the topics being discussed. This is great!

rfitz, My company does many things. On commercial work we use the proper equipment to comply with the regulations at all times. We do commercial fleet washing, building cleaning, and flatwork. We block the drains, we use berms and we pump water. No water leaves the site and solids are disposed of on site. We do not use the same items on residential unless the runoff is going to the street and into the storm drains. I would suggest you first find out the regulations both federally and in your state first. Check with the EPA and they will guide you. If you would like to discuss how to comply and what the regulations are feel free to call 1-866-440-3325 anytime to discuss. This past summer the EPA in NJ tested along the waterways of the shore to find out about runoff, chemicals, coatings, and such and how far they will leach into the ground and whether it is a concern or how much of a concern. I don't remember posting about reclaiming water around decks, I will say though that I don't let it go into the street and into the storm drains. By the way, my company consists of many businesses including a farm and pest control. Add the pressure washing and I have a great relationship with the government agencies in my state, I need to, as well as partipate with Rutgers Cooperative on many tests in regards to farming. These relationships are what keep me ahead of the curve. Please don't think I only do wood restoration, my businesses require that I know the laws and regulations. As I said feel free to call in regards to the above if necessary, I have often posted, anyone can call me anytime.

I think it comes down to what works for you. We use both x-jets and shur-flo set ups. I personally like the shur-flo. I recently saw a contractor wh ouses an x-jet that is inserted into a back pack sprayer. This was a neat idea and takes away the need to move a bucket, that works for him. On brushing, I always brush trouble spots before washing. If you brush afterwards you show the spot where you cleaned more prominently. I see folks who go to a job and never brush anything. If the pressure washer doesn't get it, oh well. You certainly should keep brushes on the trucks for any circumstance. Just my opinions, I hope they help.

I don't know if anyone missed it but, oneness nailed it. The regulations are federal , it doesn't matter what you are doing locally. It may take longer for some to "get caught" but why be the first. Some of the folks who responded "no way" guess what? If you get caught and it makes the papers you won't have to wait about going out of business. There is natural evaporation in most residences and you guys should listen to Alan, it doesn't have cost a lot to be environmentally friendly. The image it adds to your company adds to the professionalism. The real issue is for those who don't know or are aware of the regulations should just get educated. I am sure guys like Jon, Alan, Ron M. and others have no problem spreading the word and helping, they do it all the time now.

Cedar is not considered a dense wood. Here is another link to check on many types of wood. http://www.worldagroforestrycentre.org/sea/Products/AFDbases/WD/Index.htm Use the search function and check out and compare the different types we usually run into. This is a great reference tool actually. When comparing densities the lower the number the least dense. If we refer to the link above and the pdf file on page 4 it addresses the wood density. Further, if you also refer to page 10 it does go into "new wood" and it does not recommend an aging process. This can further be followed up with a phone call to "The Western Red Cedar Lumber Association. They actually recommend that no wood "sit" for over two weeks. A comment on penetrating oils, these work very well on cedar, specifically if it is knotty. The penetrating oils are usually recommended for hardwoods, this is why it works well around the dense knots. It leaves the appearance much more even. It has also been relayed to me in a study that Cabot did that the penetrating oil lasted approx. 6 months loger than their other products. Penetrating oils are also recommended on page 12 of the file by the same association. I can also tell you in speaking with them they do not endorse chlorine bleach for any purpose as well as they don't even endorse pressure washing. There reason behind this is that as an industry we cause to much damage because of lack of knowledge and proper education. Most of the problems come from too much pressure, lack of knowledge of chemicals, and lack of knowledge of coatings and their applications. Another topic we often discuss is Mill Glaze. Their feeling is there is no such animal. Second hand information tells me that the Forest Products Lab in Madison, WI has tried to replicate mill glaze and can find no way to do so. Thet have also asked for samples and found nothing in studies. They also state that while they can't prove that it doesn't exist , they also can not prove that it does. I also find this thread extremely interesting and informative. I hope others reading this are enjoying it as much. I know I got a great idea I wouldn't have had if not for this thread. These are all interesting topics and no one has to believe me but, feel free to call these folks and see what they have to say. I just follow what these folks tell me. This is where I get my education and advice. I am sure the debates will continue. I don't want to refute what others say necessarily, I am merely offering up other information. I do think though for us to grow as an industry these items will eventually have to have a standard answer. This is what the USDA and the WRCLA are trying to do.

Paul B, Awesome reply to post. A couple of things I would like to add. Jeff, In regards to mill glaze, you should do a splash test just as you always do. If the water beads up as if it were sealed then there is mill glaze. It will not weather off by itself. Also, in regards to letting wood "age", this is a very common misconception. You don't have to take my word for it though, The Western Red Cedar Lumber Association issues this statement "Caution: Cedar should not be left unfinished for 6 to 12 months as suggested by some finish manufacturers and others" This can be viewed at the following site: http://www.wrcla.org/ look on page 6 of the pdf file. This is also a great site for info. In regards to multiple coats. Where sealers are concerned a wet on wet coat is recommended. If you let the first coat dry and apply a second coat the first coat may repel the first. Further, by letting the first coat dry you are taking away just what the properties of the sealer are supposed to do when applying a second coat. Understand that many of the products are oil based and are a food source for mold and mildew. If the second coat doesn't completely dry all you are doing is feeding the mold and mildew, attracting it. With that said, as was stated always refer to the manufacturer's recommendations as some products may be able to be recoated in different ways.

Furring is usually referred to the result on the wood from too much pressure. Fuzzing is usually referred to as a chemical reaction. The fuzzing is caused by alkalines and there effect on lignin. This encompasses the bleach, sodium hydroxides, and other alkalines. So as others have stated wood can be furred by bleach. However, to bleach or not to bleach? The debate continues...

Hot water raises the grain and is not necessary. The exception I used along time ago though is this; about 10 years ago I put CWF on a deck and when the customer came home was having an absolute fit about the tone(that he had already agreed to). When stripping it in cool temps. it wasn't coming off real well(the next day). For kicks, I turned on the hot water and with the stripper made a difference in removing the fresh sealer. This was my opinion at the time and the ONLY time I have used hot water on a deck. The same situation today and the product I use, I wouldn't even consider hot water.

I wanted to take the timout to thank the contractors who have attended the Boot Camps over the past months. We have been very well received and it is a pleasure to meet and interact with other contractors. This past weekend we were in Lancaster, PA. I was invited out to see the operation of Richard Atkins and his son. I was both impressed and appreciative of the invitation. I have enjoyed these experiences and am glad that the PWNA can be more accessible to folks in this way. Please feel free to contact myself or the PWNA if you are interested in a Boot Camp in your area.

We just need enough folks interested to make the Boot Camps successful and productive. We keep track of folks interest like you have shown. We ask for others in a geographic area to post or contact us. When there is enough we try and get as much interest and attendence as possible. If you know of others in your area who would be interested please contact myself, the PWNA, or post here. This can be for either the Wood or the Kitchen Exhaust Boot Camps. These remote boot Camps are really becoming popular and there seems to be a lot of interest in these type of functions. eabrams@deckrestorationplus.com or if you have questions about the camps and would like to talk to me directly call 1-866-440-3325.

Just wanted to add my two cents. First, I compliment all on the professional and well typed responses. My feeling on the whole issue stems from folks working for us and those who do ALL the work themselves. If you have folks working for you I have a hard time with the liability factor of folks spraying chemicals where there is even a small chance of injury. Even at that I agree with Morgan, if you take all the safety precautions and you are doing it yourself, X-Jet away! I have both set-ups and like both the shur-flo and the x-jet in different circumstances.

Tomorrow night, Tuesday September , 23 2003 is the first scheduled chat for the new PWNA feature. The Chat will start at 8:00 pm EST. I hope to see many folks on the chat. Here is the link to the site http://pwnabbs.org/chat1/ The Chat topic will be "WOOD" and will be in MyRoom1. If you are an AOL user you may want to use your Internet Explorer to log on. You will have to register first. If there are any questions post here or e-mail me at eabrams@deckrestorationplus.com Hope to chat with you tomorrow! __________________

John T, Not that I am guessing but maybe you've seen mine! I have been on the Parkway, Turnpike, PA/NJ Bridges, etc. with no problem. I just pay more at the tolls and watch for trailer restrictions due to weather. Why not in NY?

I don't know about Axel but, I have seen him refer to himself as "Diamond Jim!" Glad to be part of this with you Jim.

I hope you guys get the help you need. We got hit much harder than expected here i Burlington County , NJ. I have a farm and we are in the middle of a field. Electric was out for 16 hours. Much debris to clean up, two broken windows, lost some shingles, and the corn that was left is flat on the ground and twisted. Winds were definitely higher than predicted. I hope your clean up and all goes well. We are closed up today as well for work.

I would like to thank everyone for the welcome. I will do my best to help out. I am really excited about the prospects of this BB and what has been started here. You guys have done a great job. I am now glad to be a part of it. I am even further excited about the party, I'm there.

I am very surprised that no one has voted for the last option. There are folks jumping off and out all around. I would suggest that the weather has played a major factor in this year. It has wreaked havoc with scheduling for many people. This actually goes back to the winter up here in the northeast, for full-time folks, as we had a rough winter with temperatures, snow, ice, etc. There seems to be a lot of equipment that is new to nearly-new available. I stand by previous made statements, that it isn't the industry we are in that makes you successful or not. It is the individual(s) involved. Many contractors who work outside are in the same situation that we are with weather issues, lowballers, etc. Business always seems to run in cycles, you just weather the storms!