Cyclone

You are mixing up Org's and Certs....but, neither are "the industry". The industry doesn't put food on my table, I do. I am able to do it because of customers that hire me. They hire me because they heard of me, seen my truck or seen my website. I've never heard a customer ask about "the industry", Org or Cert....not one single time. The Org's are a tool....I agree. Unfortunately, not one has ever been used properly. Like all bureaucracies, the purpose of their existence always evolves into sustaining the bureaucracy. This cert program is another example of that. As I pointed out, the only people I see benefiting from me getting certified is the bureaucracy. The Org's gave us Robert H....They gave us "cosmetic" cleaning and they labeled us polluters. I know the ***** has flip flopped on this, that you and I have always opposed it but at one time, the previous Directors thought it was a good idea. That's what concerns me the most about these certs. Nobody will answer direct questions, share the standards or open this to public comment. Are we seeing history repeat itself? Bill Booz 09-09-2012 Post #34 Bill Booz 09-09-2012 Post #43 That's all we need.....The EPA crawling around roof cleaning. Someone over there needs to reign this dude in.

What is "the industry"? Sometimes, I get the impression that some people use that phrase to mean Org. I give plenty...always have. People don't need to be in an Org to help people. There is a world of people outside of these forums, Org's and roundtables that use a phone to associate and help each other. Just a few weeks ago, I offered to help people with the EPA issue.....I called you on the phone to do it. I owe the industry nothing...The industry didn't pay for my equipment or market my business.

I don't recall mentioning anywhere in this thread, the other threads here and on *** or my email snippet anything about Ron specifically other than with regard to the certs. So, if we could...let's drop that premise completely. If you go back and read all the pages, threads....the only people that have been vehement about their positions have been for the certs. You left out the rest of the story... The guy now has an Org cert and logo to prove it. It cost him the membership dues and the training costs. He now has a cert that he can brandish on his website and direct his customers to....as almost every single supporter of cert say they do....and note to the customer "CPW is not certified" or "I'm the only certified roof cleaner in the area". Not only that, The ***** is now going to get involved in the marketing....directly promoting cert holders in local markets. Now, after losing a few jobs, wasting many hours of my life explaining why I'm actually more experienced, more qualified and that cert test was filled with nonsense questions, I finally surrender to the whole thing and join the ***** and buy me a cert logo and pay my "Union" dues every year and keep my mouth shut. With the story finished, please explain to me who benefited from the certification process? Seems to me it was the *****, the people that offer certification approved training and people like Bill Booz that want to create things like this to further their own career. My wallet is a bit lighter every year and my local customers have not gained a single thing. This whole thing is not only a cloaked membership drive, it uses contractors and attacks peoples income to arm twist them into joining. It's a bad way to have started the third redux of the *****.....look at the divisiveness it's already caused. They created a whole new group of people. There once was just people that joined and people that didn't....this will cause people to publicly campaign against them because of the certs.

John, I know Doug's school is a sore spot for you and possibly a sore spot for others....maybe it's just being used as an example. I really think that it's a symptom and not a problem. It's only a problem because of another problem. If the ***** were not pushing for certifications, Doug's school wouldn't really be a problem. It's a free country and there is nothing wrong with capitalism. Doug could serve on the board, pressure wash and teach. I think Doug is a standup guy, caught in the middle of a bad decision made after he became VP. His school predates the Certification program. You could say the same about NCE...again, a company owned by Ron (President) that employs NCE East Bill Booz (BOD) and solicits vendors that are approved training sources wouldn't be a problem if there wasn't a certification approved training program such as NCE training, Bill Booz training, etc. I'm not aware of other BOD members that benefit from the cert program but do we really need any more than the Pres, VP and Chairman (and originator) of the certification program before we conclude that its not the people, but the plan that's wrong. Does this require that there be a secret plan for financial gain behind it....no. Is it possible that it was just an idea that nobody thought through? Yes....although in Bill Booz's case, given his actions at the RCIA and the admission that he brought the idea to the table at the *****, I have my doubts. You don't accidentally try and monetize certifications at two different Org's in 2 years. Instead of attacking Doug, perhaps everyone should redirect to the root cause of the problem....the Cert process. Absent that one bad decision...who would care how much money a school in Texas makes or who owns it.

Go read the thread on *** (september) and tell me if my position is any different. Call anyone that has known me for a few years and ask them how I feel about Certs....Not just the ***** certs....all of them. I helped Chris Tucker with his new forum....ask him, ask his members. I've never agreed with the RCIA cert's. The reason I can disagree with RCIA and still help Chris is that he never took my opinion personally and the result is that we have talked and helped each other for years. Call some of the guys that are members of PRCA...ask them if I offered to help them with their map (for free). Ask them if I agree with Certs. Why would I feel slighted? I can't take on all the jobs as it is....why would I get angry over losing a job I don't need? Read the email I sent various Org Directors on Aug 30th about my Roof Cleaning Directory, which predates the ***** Cert thread which was the official ***** Cert announcement. It was exactly the same position I have maintained for years. Snipet: Tony...I have the utmost respect for you. When we first talked, shared stories of our similar personal tragedies, shared our opinions of the direction of our country, I thought we would always be above the forum politics. There is very little that we disagree on but I respect your opinions none the less. If you don't feel the same....that's a greater loss to me than 100 website jobs. Again, you are confusing two different issues... You and I talked about an SEO plan, networked websites relating to BMP's/EPA/pressure washing and I offered to set it all up for free.....it wasn't a website, it was a network, it was an SEO plan. At about the same time....maybe right before we talked or right after....I was told by Doug that the job was declined.....two separate issues.

I had a call in Jan from a Director that is a customer and whom I consider a friend. He told me that unfortunately, the BOD had decided to just tweak what they had. It never made it to an estimate because the questions I submitted were never answered. The range in price was proportional to the unique pages...I don't know how anyone could have made a decision without additional input to me and from me. A month passes and Tuesday morning, I'm told that I was being considered? I was told that this thread would impact the decision? Odd timing.... I have no issues working for someone I don't like. The process is the same regardless of who it's for. I ask for examples, I build it from scratch, customize it and install it. The person that hired me provides feedback at every step and if he doesn't like it, I'll sell it to someone else and give them their money back. Working for someone that does not like me is a different issue. I'm not going to put my reputation at risk of someone that has an ax to grind. I have to have server access to my customers database. Just look at the things here Guy B posted about me. Look at the accusations in this thread...supposedly, everyone here is just attacking the ***** because they don't like someone. What happens if someone trashes the site I built? Is someone going to accuse me of sabotage? It's not a good fit...plain and simple. By declining, I protect both myself and the ***** from a lot of unnecessary drama. I really don't feel comfortable discussing this any further because I will not share private emails and text messages. There are a lot more details and because it has nothing to do with Certs, its just a distraction. Ironically, If I was able to disagree or have an opposing opinion without personal attacks on my character or motives...none of this website discussion would be relevant.

I don't think you are a flip flopper Tony...I use you often as an example of a person of consistent convictions. We talked about that at length last month. I was only pointing it out because somehow you were led to believe I was upset about a website job. I can't do them all and turn down about half as it is. Even so, I never declined any of the three that involved the ***** or Ron until yesterday when he said that "I was on the agenda" for last nights BOD meeting. I simply asked to be taken off the agenda. Not because I was mad but it would be very difficult to work with some of the people at ***** after yesterday. It just wasn't a good fit.

Those were just a few I came up with, I don't know if the others you mentioned even clean roofs. I thought the list might spur the ***** to start discussing this. Debating what I think or want with another guy and a 5 more other guys is a waste of time. It's what the ***** wants that's important. I'd like to know what's in the Cert....There are talkshoes going back 11 1/2 months.....surely there is something that people can read.

You are confusing two different issues....actually three if you count the one I never told you anything about. Doug asked me about building a new ***** website. That fizzled out pretty quickly and was pretty much dead before we talked. When I called you, I offered to (for free) to build an integrated EPA cleaning blog network, with multiple people involved, no central hub, no owner. That was what I asked you to run by the others. Not long after that, Ron asked if it was possible to build a WordPress front-end for *** and 3 other forums. I built a quick demo and I tried several times to get him to look at it and call me. After three weeks of no contact, I assumed the idea was dead. I get lots of people that ask and never follow up. Ron's mockup site was one rare time I did any work without money down and I learned again why I had this rule. Business is business....Even though Ron was not the nicest guy after I built a directory, I was still open to doing work for him. Even though I am not a big fan of the *****, I was willing to build a website for them. I don't formulate my opinions over revenge for one or two websites. That's ridiculous. I have not changed my position on anything relating to this industry in years. Just last Sept I was in the cert thread on *** with exactly the same opinion as this one. My opinion of the ***** has not changed since it was formed and that spans multiple flip flops of some of the current ***** members. Same with certs, same with Robert H and the BMP's. In other words Tony, my consistent positions....popular or unpopular right now, are subject to the whims of other people changing their minds. I can't control that. If some don't like how I feel about something or someone, I just need a year or two before they come around. I really hope you don't expect me to agree with everything you believe in....as a condition of friendship.

Roof Cleaning Cert Questions General questions Does anyone know the standards for ***** roof cleaning certification? Is there any questions on the test relating to cleaning products? Is it possible for someone that has never cleaned a roof for hire to become certified? Are there any marketing materials provided to the newly certified roof cleaner by the *****? Is there any pricing or estimating assistance or handouts/guidelines specific to Cert holders? Is there any document that shows how or why the standards as they exist were developed? FAQ? Is there a phone number for customers of certification holders to ask questions? Is there a web portal for customers of certification holders to submit questions? Regarding the non-profit status, Will the ***** track and document the certification earnings of approved training sources that are also members of the *****? Assuming anyone can be certified, regardless of product, pressure, non-pressure: Is the ***** going to honor a manufactures recommendations for cleaning their product? What is the position of the ***** if a homeowner calls them, because two certified cleaners are bidding two different procedures and claiming his fellow certified roof cleaner is using a dangerous method? Is there a policy against negative information being provided to homeowners about a fellow certified roof cleaner that uses a different method? If a roof or gutter is damaged by a surface cleaner, would the ***** be libel to the homeowner? Could that same contractor in #4 also sue the ***** for not informing him of the dangers in the certification process? If it is discovered that a prospective member getting a ***** certification intends on using a product that has long term toxicity issues, will he still be able to become certified? Regarding Support Most organizations/companies have a knowledge base available for the members to self support. Many also offer group support in forums. Given the reluctance to answer questions in a group setting at this stage, what plans if any exist to resolve this lack of details? Same question as above, except for homeowners and commercial customers of a certified member. Who is responsible for and the point of contact for complaints?

I'll say this once and then would you please stay on topic? I told you what I thought of you after your sarcastic replies......since then, which has been several pages, you just keep going on and on. Stop hijacking the thread with arguing...

You are about to tackle what has almost become a "Religious Doctrine" in our industry. I doubt you'll get a director to admit that we individuals control our own destiny and don't need blessed by the Holy Logo to succeed.

What has been in place for over a year? As I recall from another thread, the Cert standards aren't even finished......weren't even announced until Sept 2012 (which the same issues were addressed on ***). There isn't anything sudden or personal about this....you either cannot grasp that or refuse to acknowledge it.

Red Herring....."The name of this fallacy comes from the sport of fox hunting in which a dried, smoked herring, which is red in color, is dragged across the trail of the fox to throw the hounds off the scent. Thus, a "red herring" argument is one which distracts the audience from the issue in question through the introduction of some irrelevancy." Dragging every BOD and ***** member in to this probably gives you a sense of comfort of numbers and might fool some but I believe most people are intelligent enough to see what you are doing. People are not "attacking us"....they are disagreeing with specific actions/decisions. They are not attacking people but the decisions of some people. If the ***** leaders could accept disagreement, if some of them didn't take everything personally....threads like this would be short and productive. It's the attitude and response that causes the drama.

After it was said by that guy, I called several of the people that I mentioned were supportive and nailed them down to a reason that they agreed but wanted to stay out of it. Every one that I pressed for an answer claimed some version of "afraid"......afraid for their business, afraid personally, of being harassed, called, excluded, banned....etc.

You keep telling yourself that and Matt is right....the train will go full circle. I've had calls, emails or PM's from 3 times the "4 or 5 people" myself. If they could speak their mind without being stricken from the "book of names", publicly castigated and insulted, you might have a different opinion.

I said exactly the same thing 374 days ago (link) Here was the original post......campaign promise Since I started posting in this thread....the repercussions have been hot, heavy and relentless. I've had several people call and email me that they agree but ask to be left out....."don't drag me in this". I never really thought about why until someone explained it yesterday.....they are afraid. How's that for a BOD and Org merit badge, achievement, accomplishment? You have a great deal of people afraid to speak out because of fear. Congratulations!!!

I'll stop asking questions in forums when the ***** stops using forums to market Certs. Deal?

Because he's a Director of a non profit that is supposed to be promoting the "common interest" of the industry.

If you can't reply to my posts without snide comments, please just don't reply. Being a MOD, You should show a little more professionalism and try to keep the conversation on topic, not bait people into a argument.

Go ahead then.....you wouldn't be the first ***** BOD to delete my posts or threads. As a matter of fact, you wouldn't be the second or third. Why not just post the standards? 3 1/2 years is a long time....how long does it take to write a standard?

Is there some sort of forum gag order for the ***** BOD? Is it because posts can't be deleted, threads can't be pulled here?

The problem isn't having a place or person that provides training and a Certification (call it a diploma or degree if you will). Jack Kramer told me about his training and diploma process and it's a perfect example of doing it right IMHO. You can fail the test. It's when the Org's themselves try and dual monetize Certs (Membership Fee + Cert Fee) that it begins to smell. The ***** is trying to mix the two....they accept the training of others but issue the cert. NJWashingGuy's new UAMCRC could sell cert logo's and never test or train anyone....just recognize the work of others. Good money when you can get it!

IMO, it goes beyond that. The ***** is a 501©-6 organization....it is one of the biggest tools in their tool box. You would think they would pursue that avenue of promotion and value....not destroy it. And....that's exactly what this "Certification" thing will do. A 501©-6 non profit cannot restrain trade. It must promote the "Common Business Interests" of the trade or industry....not selective businesses. Reg. 1.501©(6)-1 states that the activities of a business league should be for the improvement of one or more lines of business. When an activity of an organization is unlawful and of such a nature that it attempts to put artificial restraints on others within the trade, it cannot be said to be conducted for the improvement of the general line of business. Here's an example... IRS Denies 501©(6) Business League Status To Member Service Org.SullivanLaw.Net THE SERVICE’S RULING. The IRS found several reasons to deny 501©(6) status to the organization, including the following: Private Inurement. The Service took the position that the organization violated Section 501©(6)’s prohibition on private inurement because the organization is controlled by its founder and is being used to provide benefits to the founder, either directly or “indirectly through expanded business to N.” Specifically, the IRS concluded that the organization was “formed to market [its] founder’s financial planning seminars and direct individuals to N for the purchase of financial products.” Absence of Purpose to Promote Common Business Interests. The IRS also determined that the organization was not formed to promote the common business interests of a particular industry or trade, but to refer business to N.

Keep in mind that CT made that post when BB was still just RCIA....before the attempt to usurp the RCIA through the board, before he was hooked up with NCE. Chris gave BB and AC a seat at the table in a plan to form an Org and both immediately proceeded to use the positions to monetize themselves. It didn't last long....the members revolted and Chris stepped in and eliminated the whole thing. But, that's not what I was pointing out with that link.....it was the this: People seem to be all dog knotted over Doug's training connection and board seat.....and don't seem to care that the guy drafting the roof cleaning Cert has a 3+ year history of parlaying a Org position into personal financial gain? Later in the thread, he states So, he joins RCIA in march 09 and gets trained "personally" by Chris which was really just "forum and phone" and in 18 short months (two roof cleaning seasons) he get's certified, becomes an instructor and then a $ 275 a month Expert advisor? IMHO....his history suggests that his "bonafied's" are not accumulated by participation but by design. When you overlay his leapfrogging of positions and titles with his self promotion and fee's....it seems that the two have a parallel motive.