tonyshelton

I've had the same guys do my yard for years. Are they insured? Who knows? Who cares? I could easily hire a verified licensed, fully insured established landscaping company for three times the price. Either way, my yard would have been blown, trimmed and mowed every week. If they did a crappy job I'd fire them and it would have been my fault for taking a chance on "unlicensed" lawn mowers. I've saved over $12,000 in landscaping since I hired them. That's a years worth of car payments and insurance! I and another guy painted our house. (7 years ago) It still looks great. It took one weekend. I saved $8000. I bought a Titan professional sprayer with that savings and now my son uses it to seal concrete. I saved $4000 by hiring two guys to install new windows in my house. I was quoted $2000 to add a 50 amp RV hookup 90 ft from the panel. A handyman did it for $500.00. It passed inspection just like it would have if I paid $2000.00. Another $1500 saved. That paid for a long weekend at Malibu in the camper. 4 years ago a sewer pipe broke under the house. The quote was $1000. I directed Chris to the internet where he learned how to fix it and paid him $200. Installed instant water heaters with long pipe runs. Quote $1200.00. Plumber from craigslist -$350.00- Passed inspection by the city. I could go on and on. I just don't get the argument. There is a place in society for hacks. Beth, you can't force the market to pay higher prices for a guarantee of quality contractors when there is no such thing as a guarantee of quality contractors. If I had a deck I would hire some guy off craigslist to do it. If he screwed it up it would be my own d*mn fault for being such a cheapskate. I might have to pay more later to fix it. OR I might get a good contractor (hack) and get mine done whenever I need it for 1/4th the going rate for "licensed" contractors. I know you don't want to hear that. But it's reality. There are a lot of Tony Sheltons out there. WE are not your market. Your market is the people who put a guaranty of quality at the top of their list. Your market is the people who've been screwed by the hacks before. Developing a good educational website and educating the customer is a far more honorable way to earn business than by using the strong arm of the government to force homeowners to hire licensed contractors against their will. That's why I don't mess with the residential market. Joe Residential only has to answer to himself and his wife, so he can hire whoever he wants. Property managers, business owners and other commercial customers have to answer to customers and corporate. It PAYS for them to do due diligence to hire only fully insured and proven contractors. Not so in the residential market. It's two different worlds. I know this is a predominantly residential board and I expect to get crucified for this. But I think the FREE market should set prices and not the government.

We finally had a month where sales caught up to 2008 levels. I think most of the overpopulated commercial world has shrunk down to a sustainable level. We are marketing to an entirely different market now.

Liberals have Hillary Clinton to look at. Conservatives have Sarah Palin. (Just another small difference to consider.... :)

One of my closest friends is a life-long democrat AND an agnostic. Re rarely even hit each other. :O What's funny about the great variety of guys and girls on these boards is they don't always fall to the left or right with a clear division in the middle. I'm sure Scott and I will disagree on the drug legalization issue. Beth and I disagree on the role of government. William and I disagree on using fire hydrants. The list goes on and on. But I like to think I am friends with all three of them nonetheless. People will never agree 100%. Everyone should be allowed to say what they believe.

I'll speak for myself. I am a "conservatarian" on most issues. I don't believe the government needs to confiscate our money and give to the poor. I already do that. Government intervention makes itself the middle man in a charity transaction and sucks the funds dry with administrative costs till there isn't much left for the poor. I don't believe the government has the right to tell me what I can do with my own body. PERIOD. As long as I am not physically hurting another person in the process. And YES an unborn child is ANOTHER person and so is that UNBORN child's OTHER PARENT - Meaning any harm that comes to that child by my hands not only harms the unborn child, but harms the OTHER PARENT. I believe a woman has a right to choose- they can choose to not have *** with someone they aren't prepared to have a child with. If they choose to go ahead and have ***, then they've exercised their right to choose and have chosen to bear a child if they become pregnant. I believe a man has a right to choose, they have the same choice, but if they choose to go ahead and have *** then they have MADE THEIR CHOICE and will have to pay for it with an 18-24 yr mortgage payment to the mother. Drugs are none of the government's business. No lesson was learned from prohibition. Billions are wasted every year on this black hole of waste. Prostitution is none of the government's business as long as there are no forced participants. That would be slavery and that is already against the law. The federal government has few rights and responsibilities. States can almost do whatever they please as properly laid out in the constitution. (as long as they don't violate the bill of rights, etc) The beauty of that is that since we are in a free country, if I don't like what's going on in Nevada I can pack up my stuff and move to a state that more closely mirrors my beliefs. The federal government oversteps its boundaries when it tries to set nationwide policies by way of withholding money from the state. If we stood up to the feds they wouldn't have so much of our money to give back in the first place! So, there you have it. The beliefs of a MADMAN conservatarian.

Joe wants to hire the cheapest hack, then complain to the mommy government about how THEY should have protected him. Joe is an idiot and should lose all his money so he doesn't have anymore to give to the hacks. That will fix Joe's problem. :)

I'm sure there are a lot who will disagree with me, but it's my belief that without the moral compass that Christianity provides the country, we would be overrun by these types of people. Me, Me, Me....that's all that matters to them.

Sorry, I forgot.....Congratulations! That's actually a pretty good feat considering the hot water and occasional chems. Do you remember over a year ago I had a hose pop and got 2nd degree burns down my back. It was the catlike reflexes!!! In a split second from the POP I was turned around and trying to run away, unfortunately I was on the lift and couldn't run too far!!!!!

If only they were all that easy to bust!

Wow, a certificate! My company knows I appreciate honesty. Here's the one I got.

At the rate we are driving around now I wonder why evolution hasn't caused us to start growing little wheels instead of feet? It's so much more efficient. If evolution was smart enough to develop wings on birds for them to fly, why haven't we started to grow wings? We are the only species that desires to fly, as attested by the large amounts we will pay to do so. Finally, we are starting to develop a software that can listen to what we can say and do it. We are little behind evolution, Evolution made that a few thousand years ago. It's called a child. Amazing how pure chance can produce something we can't even put together properly today. Now we can wear glasses an see a tv in 3D. Somehow pure chance made that possible with most creatures thousands of years ago. Chance is amazing......yeah right!

Wow!!! When you do that type of thing you have to use a really high pitched voice because most PM's are ladies.:hat:

And I didn't have to have a license for that job either Jim.:lgmoneyey

You missed a spot shaving this morning.

Answers in red above Rod, I know we aren't going to agree and I know I'm not going to convince you to change your position. My response is only to clarify WHY I come to the conclusions I have. We're not all going to agree. We don't have to be twins to be brothers!

I just want to thank you guys for indulging me today as I take a break from the reality of work. I know we all have different views, I'm just trying to explain how my views, radical as they may be, come from a study of human history and the mistakes we, as a human race, have made in the past. Am I right? I think so. But that doesn't really mean squat now does it? :sunshine: Thanks again.

John, you must be taking the same allergy medicine I am because our minds are thinking alike right now. I ALMOST posted a CAVEAT to the logic post and exempted FAITH from logic because I know Faith is a jump from logic based on logical clues. If there was proof, there would be no room for faith! On another note, I can see what I've been saying looks contradictory. It's not. I'll answer your questions if you will consider mine: 1) Knowing there was an aids epidemic and KNOWING that unprotected homosexual activity was the leading cause of spread of this disease why weren't laws passed to stop this "self-mutilation" that eventually became slow suicide for hundreds of thousands? Not only were they harming themselves, but they were spreading disease to others. Why weren't the cops notified so these people could be locked up to keep them from harming themselves and others? (Because it's not politically expedient now) Putting on a seatbelt can only save ONE person. Outlawing behavior that has been proven to spread disease could have saved thousands. Why is one the business of the government when the other is not? 2) How are motorcycles different? I hit a curb at 55 mph before on a bike. I can assure you that you can be ejected from a bike just like you can from a car. My best friend was in intensive care for almost a month and was thrown over 150 feet from a motorcycle. Why aren't there laws to protect us from the stupidity of getting on a two wheeled killing machine? (because it's not politically expedient now) 3) How can bad injuries cost the taxpayers money? I thought we just passed a massive bill because those poor people without insurance were NOT getting treatment. Maybe we were misinformed?????? 4) Maybe suicide is a sin. But so is gluttony and lying. That's where grace comes in. God knows our hearts and he will be our judge. Not me, not you, not the church, but he alone will judge those who committed suicide. Apparently Samson, who committed suicide, was considered high enough to be listed as one of the great fathers of faith in Hebrews 11. It's just not for us to judge. 5) Lastly, John, did you wear your seatbelt as a child? People die. It happens everyday. It's the price you pay for living. I don't plan on giving up living just to run away from the possibility of death. (As a matter of fact I welcome death. I'm ready at any time. Why would I run when I get the call to come home? If you don't believe this call my wife and ask. We've already made arrangements a long time ago.) John, your points are the same talking points the politicians give the masses to please the groups that will be voting for them. Take those points to their logical conclusions - Why stop at "If only they had their seatbelt on" why not "If only they had been walking instead of riding in that car" (which is what Gore would like) or "if only they had stayed in their home they wouldn't have died" etc, etc.

She's too old for that now. But guess what: I guess it's time to go to jail for child endangerment! :D By the way, foreign trade is within the regulatory rights of the federal government. I'm all for regulating it.

Those are good points James. But these are not the responsibility of the Federal Government to regulate. It falls in the hands of the states. (with the exception of the airlines and interstate food handling- which falls under interstate commerce) If a state wants to regulate these INTRASTATE businesses, it's up to the will of the people who live in those states. If I live in a state where physicians are not required to be licensed and I don't agree with that, I have all the right in the world to pack up my stuff and move to one that does. That is the beauty and wisdom of the founding fathers. Why must I chose a licensed physician? Why do I have to order antibiotics from Mexico for $10? The reason I must do this is because I otherwise am required by law to pay a doctor $150.00 to see me for 15 seconds and write a prescription for a $50.00 bottle of antibiotics. Why? It's my own d*mn business what I want to do with my own body. The water issue is also a state issue. The clean water act originally was limited to "navigable waters of the United States". That meant waters the CONNECTED states in relation to interstate commerce. Thus the "navigable" part. It didn't mean local PONDS, LAKES, etc which fall under the responsibility of the several STATES. Under our constitution it would be up to each state to take care of it's own laundry. That allows the LOCALS to force the outcry and put it up before the LOCAL people to decide, not a decision from a thousand miles away from someone who may or may not be influenced by lobbyists. See the beauty of it? Where's the logic in allowing me to skydive, but not allowing me to have a broken arm set by an unlicensed physician? Where's the logic in giving out motorcycle licenses while at the same time requiring SEATBELTS in a car where I'm surrounded by AIRBAGS!!! It's lunacy run amok.

I rambled on and forgot to address the initial point of being a believer in logic. I believe the founding fathers intended us to be a free people. That means free to make our own stupid decisions in regards to civil law. If that is the case, we should be able to practice whatever we wish and either survive or fail on the free market. That goes for doctors, lawyers, accountants, and even pressure washers. If we are going to limit one group we should logically make it against the law to do any kind of work without being licensed. On the other hand, if one group can work without a license, then all professions should be allowed that freedom. It was like that for thousands of years and we survived.

John, you and I are on opposite ends of the political spectrum. I understand your beliefs, I just don't think you are right and you don't think I'm right. There's nothing wrong with that. All people are different. I'm a believer in logic. I believe the founding fathers set up our national form of government as a means of guaranteeing interstate trade and commerce, protection of our borders, and as the ultimate authority in the guaranty of our rights as citizens. Beyond that, almost everything else lies in the hands of the States, which can pretty much do what they please. I believe that in this Christian era wherein we live, that most people are decent. I don't drive drunk. Not because it is against the law, but because it is against my morals. The vast majority do the right thing. The problem is that the government has taken over the role of "moral" policeman using it's own set of morals that have nothing to do with morals passed down from God i.e. laws against driving without wearing a seatbelt, etc. If we were to simply get back to the simple civil laws given to the Israelites we would be better off as a society. For example we could do away with a lot of superfluous laws if we simply had a law and punishment against stealing. It would be up to a judge or jury to decide the severity and penalty for stealing. There would be no "petty theft", "grand theft", "auto theft" and on and on. You either stole or you didn't. There wouldn't be any of those slimy prosecutor tricks like piling up multiple "counts" on top of each other for the same offense just to guarantee a conviction. And as an added benefit there would be no "getting off on a technicality". Back on the old days when God's law was being followed one didn't need a lawyer. The law was so simple all you had to do was show up and let the judge make the decision. If you were guilty, you probably were punished. The founding fathers had the right idea. Keep it SIMPLE. Which is what they did. How many thousands of pages is the health bill? How many pages is the constitution? PS> can you guys tell we are working Sunday so I have the day off today?

John, I'm not talking about taking my kid to a doctor who has "LOST" his license. I'm talking about the fact that a doctor doesn't NEED a license to be a good doctor. Our dog is facing a $2,300 surgery right now. It will be cheaper for us to FLY him to Minnesota (where there is a retired Vet we know) who will do the surgery for around $300.00 than to go across the street from our house to the LICENSED vet. Is THAT CRAZY John? Shelly has had beautiful white teeth her entire life. One of the problems with naturally white teeth is that they are brittle (lacking in something that keeps them strong). We have saved over $11,000 going to Mexico having her teeth worked on. We try to make it an annual trip. Is the dentist licensed? Who knows???? Who cares??? He does a great job and she says he's far better at pain reduction than any dentist she's ever been to. Now we don't have to carry ANY dental insurance, we pay cash for all the work and pay a LOT less then the DEDUCTIBLE we used to pay on the insurance. IS THAT CRAZY John? I wish my Dad were here to tell you all about licensed doctors. About two years before he died he went to the emergency room in Columbia, TN with pain in his lower back and side. That set off a chain of ridiculous "tests". One after another, month after month, traveling back and forth to Nashville for testing. He saw about 6 doctors. They treated him for all kinds of things. Most of them spent no more than 3 minutes with him after he had spent hours driving and sometimes all day waiting for an appointment. 6 weeks before he died he got a call from the very first hospital he went to letting him know that there was something abnormal on his test from almost 2 years before. Within a day they told him he had advanced kidney cancer and he would have to start radiation treatment immediately, but by now it was probably too late. We were all called in and he said he's ready to go home to his Father. He was only 71. He died 6 weeks later. Thank God for government oversight that guaranteed my dad about an hour of time with 6 doctors over a 2 year period. What is the matter with all you people? I ask again - how did the human race survive for over 6,000 years without the oversight of the government to protect us as a species? Would you like me to answer that question instead of continuing to ask it over and over again? The fact is the WITHOUT GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE PEOPLE ARE GENERALLY DECENT AND CIVIL MINDED. For example "Doctoring" is a dirty job. Most people don't have the stomach for it. Back years ago it was rare to find someone with the curiosity and the stomach to be a doctor. Fast forward to TODAY - Doctors are thought to be rich. Any parent with money can send their kid to college to be a doctor. Any person who only cares about becoming wealthy can pay their dues so they can get the big payout at the end of their schooling. Once they open up shop they realize that the government fees and red tape, insurance companies, attorneys and even the ADA constantly have their hands out taking more and more of the pie. Not only that, but insurance companies are only willing to pay pennies on the dollar for services. That is why some doctors are going to "cash only". (It takes at least 3 clerical staff on average to service the paperwork for one doctor at a doctor's office - this is not conjecture - I used to be in the business. I wrote, installed and trained on medical billing systems in 7 states) The end result of this is now doctors have become bitter and couldn't give a flying crap about their patients. That is why they have the gall to spend 3 minutes talking to a patient who's driven who knows how far and waited all day along with 50 other people in the waiting room. When Fayth was born she went into labor at around 5pm. She was ready to deliver at around 10pm. They gave her (along with the 6 other future mothers in the delivery ward that night) sedatives and kept them in a state of waiting till 6am. At six am the doctor came in and delivered all 6 babies. I don't know how much the others paid, but we paid cash and the doctor's delivery fee alone was over $6,000. All the babies were delivered in less than an hour. We heard the doctor talking on his phone telling someone he would be all done by 8am and then he's off for the rest of the week. This was Shelly's primary OBGYN for the pregnancy. Prior to the birth she had seen his "assistants" at his clinic about 6 times for a few minutes each. She never had the "privilege" of meeting the doctor except through the mask at delivery and even then he didn't even announce who he was. 6 births in an hour. $36,000. (most of which went to insurance payments and the government) And for what? For assisting in a birth. For something that maids and midwives have done throughout the centuries. WHAT? Babies came into this world and the human race survived without a licensed doctor?????? How could that be???? Once licensing was required the young potential doctors see themselves as an elite group who have "paid their dues". This new batch of modern doctors have entered the field for money only rather then to give and help others. Once they realize how much of the money they have to "share" - they become bitter and despise the 3 minutes they have to spend with a patient. I realize all doctors aren't like this. Some of my good friends are doctors. MOST of what I just told you have come from THEIR OWN MOUTHS. NOW, on the to the driver's license issue. John, there were a lot of cars on the road between 1900 and 1954. Why didn't South Dakota collapse under the burden of the all 11 year olds creating mayhem on the streets. South Dakota didn't even institute driver's licenses till 1954. Having lived in South Dakota, I can tell you there are plenty of 11 yr old farm kids who can drive circles around your "trained" NY police officers. The difference is the 11 year old farm kid's livelihood DEPENDS on their being responsible with their parent's property. The idea that a drivers license somehow "weeds out" bad drivers is a fallacy and has no basis in fact. I am against licensing drivers. I can't do anything about it, because the fallacy that licensing somehow "protects" us is too deeply ingrained in the public's conscience. Even yours John.

Scott, I might tend to agree with you on the construction and Engineering if it weren't for the fact that unlicensed construction companies still rip off consumers on a daily basis as well as licensed. So what have we accomplished? Our own city just got ripped off by a construction company that ran off after all the checks and balances put in place to make sure everything was in place including insurance. I ask again - How did we as as race survive all those thousands of years without licensing? I would go to an unlicensed doctor in a second AND would have NO problem taking any member of my family to one. We wouldn't be bankrupting the country with healthcare reform if there weren't so many restrictions on doctors already and if we would simply execute all lawyers. Without the lawyers and insurance companies a doctor visit would be about $30. My last accountant cost me thousands with the IRS because of his incompetence. Needless to say we do our own accounting internally now. Teaching? Come on Scott, give me a break. Shelly just came back from a home schooling "roundtable" she called it, she brought home some graphs showing that kids taught by UNCERTIFIED teachers score 1 point better overall. Scott, you surprise me with that one.

BTW, that was another joke. For any of you guys who haven't met William, he's a young guy. I thought he was an older guy too before we met (aren't all good conservatives old white men?). He's accomplished a lot in a few years. William is a good business example to follow.

Dinner's on me Rod! Thanks for the spirited debate.