tonyshelton
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Posts posted by tonyshelton
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The industry is what puts food on your table.
Family farms used to be a big industry, regulated very little and left to thrive.
They failed to come together and defend the value of their enterprise and now they are practically gone because the larger corporate farms banned together and lobbied them out of existence. The ones that are left just barely scrape along.
That is exactly what is happening to your industry, my industry, our industry.
The industry is not an org. An org is a tool the industry can use.
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I don't recall mentioning anywhere in this thread, the other threads here and on *** or my email snippet anything about Ron specifically other than with regard to the certs. So, if we could...let's drop that premise completely.If you go back and read all the pages, threads....the only people that have been vehement about their positions have been for the certs.
You left out the rest of the story...
The guy now has an Org cert and logo to prove it. It cost him the membership dues and the training costs. He now has a cert that he can brandish on his website and direct his customers to....as almost every single supporter of cert say they do....and note to the customer "CPW is not certified" or "I'm the only certified roof cleaner in the area". Not only that, The ***** is now going to get involved in the marketing....directly promoting cert holders in local markets.
Now, after losing a few jobs, wasting many hours of my life explaining why I'm actually more experienced, more qualified and that cert test was filled with nonsense questions, I finally surrender to the whole thing and join the ***** and buy me a cert logo and pay my "Union" dues every year and keep my mouth shut.
With the story finished, please explain to me who benefited from the certification process?
Seems to me it was the *****, the people that offer certification approved training and people like Bill Booz that want to create things like this to further their own career. My wallet is a bit lighter every year and my local customers have not gained a single thing.
This whole thing is not only a cloaked membership drive, it uses contractors and attacks peoples income to arm twist them into joining.
It's a bad way to have started the third redux of the *****.....look at the divisiveness it's already caused. They created a whole new group of people. There once was just people that joined and people that didn't....this will cause people to publicly campaign against them because of the certs.
Premise dropped.
The org membership and the certs are not a lot of money to begin with first off. Training isn't too much either, less than $350 at the best school in the world!! (I can't help myself lol)
New guys, especially residential, are paying between $150 and $4k for lettering and vehicle wraps already just to get started in many cases, not to mention the cost of the equipment, insurance, etc. I know a few hundred dollars is not chump change, but I doubt you will be able to find a single new contractor who has spent $1000 on training that won't say it was worth every dime.
Regarding competition: I only have three direct competitors here in Las Vegas who are doing in the millions. One of them is the past president of NAFA. How many times do you think he slaps that NAFA certification up in the face of my customers? Who knows? Who cares? I sell my own product on its own merits.
I guess you could call my competitor and ask him how many times the NAFA certs have taken a deal from me. If it has ever happened I am not aware of it.
I think you are shadow boxing an opponent that isn't there.
I would like to challenge you to document a case where the scenario you described has happened. Usually a certification or a membership, is used to close a deal quickly and put the customer at ease, not pit yourself against the competition in an ongoing bid battle. Personally I think the valuing the certification on that basis alone is a bit of selling hype that is unproven.
Maybe there will be some isolated instances of what you describe. Customers aren't stupid. Most customers aren't going to give a flip about certifications. But every now and then you will run across that regimented government employee who needs a certification to make him fill better about his purchase. For those customers I'd recommend a big $5.00 sticker that says "Cyclone Certified". :)
Sometimes that's all it takes for a customer to justify their purchase in their own mind.
On the other hand, many pressure washers, especially those coming from the regimented background of government or union employment, feel the need to have that certificate on their resume.
In their minds it creates a sense of accomplishment and gives motivation.
See, there's a lot more to this than simply "one guy trying to say he's better than the other".
Barry, if you were to ever join the *****, with your personality, I would hope that you would join for the purpose of giving back to the industry that provides a living for you. You don't seem like the type who would ever join because you were "forced" to by a competitor.
Sometimes being a part of something that has such potential to do good in the end (even if it is just on the environmental end, in your opinion) has its own rewards that are more satisfying than the financial rewards.
Personally I'd like the membership to be driven by volunteerism, especially in these early building stages. And that is what I'm seeing much more than any desire to just "get certified".
You would really be surprised how many volunteers we have working on the EPA issue. I'm shocked to be honest. I think that is why the ***** is so strong so early on.
The members have realized it's not all about "bennies", and I'm proud to be associated with them.
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James, certification is just a small part of what the ***** is doing.
It just happened to be the most complicated and controversial part so it it better that we tackle it first. Should be smooth after this. :)
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Michael, can we put the vendor issue on the backburner for a while and come back to it later and discuss the other issue. I'll be glad to re-address the vendor issue later. I'd like some time to research the law on this a little deeper than what I already did back during the time of the old *****.
Would you mind elaborating on: "who are they to certify anyone??" and "I don't believe in certs for many reasons."
so we can see if there is any common ground?
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Guy,I saw what you wrote so I will respond as gingerly as possible. This thread has obviously hit a nerve to some. I find it funny what you wrote on this post but it was screen shot and somehow ends up on your President's BBS. Really Guy I think you and his friends may have to rethink how you want to play ball. He can make 1000 you tube videos calling me out. I dont care. He can try to discredit me. I dont care. I know the trusth and nothing he does or says will change that. I am a moderator here and respected by many more than you will ever know. I try to hold up my end on standards and practices. I also have tried to stay ethically correct. I have had many phone calls from respeccted contractors and I have assured them that I would leave them out of this situation. I have done that and I will continue to do so. Life is a two way street. Remember that. You can't expect people to get blasted and then in turn when its you you cry wolf or whine about some wrong doing. This kind of sounds like a phone call I had with your president. If you and the BOD want opinions or help I will give it. Here is my suggestion. Close the doors. Disban the Org. End it all.
Can I be any more clear then that? What has transpired from jealously and ignorance is unreal. I make an opinionated statement and your so called leader, his friends and the BOD chose to make it personal and attack me. Questions are avoided. You cannot manipulate people but so far. You cant use the friendship card when its suiting then pull the card when its not. Your president calls people out on video and you sit back and do nothing. Maybe I am not worthy of the Org. Maybe I should go into pig farming and start my own organization.
Rob, that is very clear. You don't want the org to change, you want it to close.
Thanks for your input.
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Go read the thread on *** (september) and tell me if my position is any different. Call anyone that has known me for a few years and ask them how I feel about Certs....Not just the ***** certs....all of them.I helped Chris Tucker with his new forum....ask him, ask his members. I've never agreed with the RCIA cert's. The reason I can disagree with RCIA and still help Chris is that he never took my opinion personally and the result is that we have talked and helped each other for years.
Call some of the guys that are members of PRCA...ask them if I offered to help them with their map (for free). Ask them if I agree with Certs.
Why would I feel slighted? I can't take on all the jobs as it is....why would I get angry over losing a job I don't need?
Read the email I sent various Org Directors on Aug 30th about my Roof Cleaning Directory, which predates the ***** Cert thread which was the official ***** Cert announcement. It was exactly the same position I have maintained for years.
Snipet:
Tony...I have the utmost respect for you. When we first talked, shared stories of our similar personal tragedies, shared our opinions of the direction of our country, I thought we would always be above the forum politics. There is very little that we disagree on but I respect your opinions none the less. If you don't feel the same....that's a greater loss to me than 100 website jobs.
Again, you are confusing two different issues...
You and I talked about an SEO plan, networked websites relating to BMP's/EPA/pressure washing and I offered to set it all up for free.....it wasn't a website, it was a network, it was an SEO plan.
At about the same time....maybe right before we talked or right after....I was told by Doug that the job was declined.....two separate issues.
Barry, we are just friends here having a discussion about something that we disagree about.
I know we have a lot of the same opinions. That should tell you something. It should be a red flag for you that we disagree so vehemently about this issue and about Ron. In the case of Ron is is possible that maybe I am privy to information about Ron and his motivations that you are unable to comprehend being outside the close friendship Ron and I share?
As far as the certifications go, I'm listening. Convince me. I will explain my reasoning and you explain yours and we will either agree, or agree to disagree as friends.
1) The certifications are not law.
They are simply certifications. NAFA is the largest air filter org. I am not a member. I never saw any need and I don't think they are doing anything good for the industry, so, for almost nine years I have chosen not to support them with my money nor get their certs.
In all those years I've only been asked once if I was NAFA certified. Turns out it was a setup for a fake bid by a competitor trying to suck information about our operation and get our pricing and other info.
Thousands of buildings from the Veterans Administration to Cities and Counties all the way down to a single AC unit on the roof of a nail salon and not one of them ever asked if I was certified by NAFA. NAFA has been around for a long time. Their certifications are not a requirement to work like the PW#A higher ups have worked to make KEC certifications a requirement to work.
As long as the ***** is controlled by men of integrity (and that is up to the members) nothing of the sort will ever happen.
That was one of my principal concerns about certs in the past. But IF we get enough participation and there are enough people of integrity in the industry I can't see that ever happening, just like it has never happened with NAFA. Plus it is difficult to do. The KEC industry was able to do it (to the detriment of small cleaners all over) because they could show a demonstrable life and death issue that they could use to shore up their argument.
I don't believe, just like the air filter industry, that the powerwashing industry as a whole will ever come to that. So I do not oppose the certs because I don't believe they will ever become a requirement to work. I have played out all kinds of scenarios in my head and I can't see it ever happening.
2) I support them because they help the new guy.
Now before you get all up in arms about his hear me out. Right now there are 20 guys spraying something with an inferior power washer, doing a bad job, probably within 200 miles of your house.
Out of those there is probably 1 that likes the work and sees it as a career. He gets on the internet to look for help, in say, dealing with rust, and he finds there are thousands of us, working as professionals. He learns what he can on the internet, finds a school (Doug **********'s the best in the world. lol) or events to go to, or training from the PWNA or any of many different sources. He learns what he can, uses the attendance at the school to show he is serious about the business, even though he has only been in business for six months, then he takes a ***** certification test to check his knowledge.
The tests aren't easy. Let's say he fails the first time. He goes back and studies and passes the second time. Now he is "Roof Cleaning Certified" or whatever cert he went for.
Guess what.....by this time he has learned from the boards, met other successful contractors, laughed about all the mistakes he made early on and learned the basics of how to do a great job for his customer, AND has passed a test showing that he has learned.
Now he has a certification that he can bring to his customer. What does that certification mean? Exactly what I said in the previous sentence. That's all it means. It doesn't mean he's better, it doesn't mean he has a better method, it does mean he has ambition and the desire to learn to do things right for his customer as opposed to the guy who sees gum on the sidewalk and takes out the hammer and the screwdriver because he's never had the ambition to look up the right way and find out about hot water.
I am in favor of the certs because it is an inexpensive way for a new guy with ambition to learn proper methods that do no harm to his customer's property and something he might be able to use as a psychological advantage to those customers who are on the edge about hiring him, but are taken over the edge by consoling themselves with the idea that "he's certified" so he must be ok.
Some customers are just like that.
3) I like the way the ***** has it set up because it takes them completely out of the training process and has them simply administering a knowledge test.
Currently the ***** is accepting schooling from any number of places for knowledge in lieu of 5 years experience. The mere fact that they are accepting PWNA courses should speak volumes about the integrity of this BOD.
I'm ready for the onslaught about Doug's little school..... The fact is, anyone, any member, non member, BOD or not can teach anyone anything. If you have ever had a contractor tag along and help with a job for free just for learning you have "schooled" them. You didn't get paid cash for that, but you were paid in labor.
Doug's school, or any school for that matter doesn't guarantee a certification. You still have to pass the test.
If Doug made a living teaching these classes I would be in 100% agreement with you. But the fact is, already this year Doug has made NEW sales that are probably 10 times what he will make on the school in the whole year! He is a contractor.
I believe Carlos should qualify as a contractor, along with many others who supplement their income by selling this or that, or teaching this or that. My problem with Carlos and the ***** before was that he had left contracting for the most part and was planning on relying on income from the org. I think that opens the door for all kinds of impropriety and I argued my case about it back then. There is a line where a contractor becomes a vendor. We simply need to monitor that line and make it "reasonable and rational" lol.
But you will be hard pressed to find contractors who haven't sold something or hired out some work or trained someone, or built a website or any number of other things that couldn't be construed as "selling to contractors" As long as we use some common sense and keep an eye on things we should be able, as honorable men, to keep ourselves in line and watch out for others who are getting close to or crossing that line into impropriety. Few things are ever black and white. We have to use judgement and rely on integrity and watch each others' backs. None of us are immune to the temptations of doing something wrong. That is why we need to work together and watch out for each other. On the other hand there are those who will justify any illegal or immoral actions to "provide for their families" or some other nonsensical excuse. It is our job to remove them from our midst when we find them. And I am here to tell you Barry, Ron and Doug are not of that cloth. I know them very well, Ron especially. I don't expect you to believe that, but I'm putting it here on record so that years later you can look back and shake your head in agreement.
I will start with those Barry. Those are some of the reasons I think the certifications, the way they are set up, are a good thing for our industry. Convince me otherwise.
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Tony,Somewhere in here you stated that you can't answer for Ron.....
Then why are you here defending him?? I understand that you guys are best friends. This is probably one of your most eloquent post sets that I have seen in over a year. There are divergent view points. You minimize what causes frustration among others because you want to side with your friends or clique..... I understand that it is human nature. You are not going to change the minds of people who do not believe in what is going on.
Ron's actions have offended people. Are you offended that others are offended by Ron? People are entitled to their opinion and do not need your opinion of their opinion thrown back at them.
You and I will likely not see eye to eye with one another, its probably personal for you at this point. The point of this thread was to mock what is being done in this industry. This thread has caused some in the ***** to mock themselves or the org while posting here. It does not look well for the org. The "dissenters" as you label here are not being wiped up by the ***** by any means. The pawns will wake up one day and realize that they have been snowed.
The using of ones positional authority to further their own financial gain or the financial gain of their friends is deplorable when done under the guise of a 501C(3) non-profit org. Call it what it is, another money making venture, don't hide it or defend it.
Ron has made the statement that Doug's School " IS THE BEST IN THE WORLD " Anyone who is rational knows that the statement is completely false. Ron has not attended every power washing school worldwide and therefore is incapable of making that judgement. Yet, he continues to do so for his buddies financial gain. Please do not try to make people believe that a $500 class attended by 7 people for a few days at a place local to your business is not profitable. Its not about Dougs school. its about how the new people are being lured to the school that is not correct. To get certified, you need credits if you don't make the time in requirement. You can get credit at Dougs school, an NCE event, whats next a high post count on ***. It is so obvious it is alarming. Just don't hide it.
If you read the threads here, you will see that there are alot of questions not answered. A glaring one is WHO IS ON THE CERTIFICATION COMMITTEES?? WHO IS HELPING WITH THESE CERTS?? If there is nothing to hide, why not answer these questions. I guess Bill is too busy cleaning roofs in 20 degree weather to answer on the internet with " a new cleaning solution" thats soon to be avaialbe to ***** certified roof cleaners?? This is a joke. The skill set needed to make this work is not showing itself, and that statement is proven each day on here.
Michael, I defend Ron because I've watched the drama and exaggerations that have snowballed and turned Ron into a caricature of what he really is.
For example, Ron didn't send Rob 80 texts. And he didn't threaten his family. That's just one of the most recent ones I can think of. I hope Rob will come out and say that and begin a new dialogue in our industry that doesn't rely on exaggerations for effect and doesn't rely on calling someone a "blob" just because you don't like them. (or a clown)
Sure Ron sent some texts to Rob, he brought up the past to point out that he thought Rob was a friend and felt betrayed. He was hurt and that's how he reacts. That's a personality issue, not an integrity issue.
People get offended over the silliest things these days. That word doesn't carry too much weight anymore when the word "threats" is thrown around to the point it could mean something as simple as Ron saying "If you don't help me I won't buy you dinner", or pay for your hotel room. It has gotten ridiculous.
As far as Doug's school goes....Really? First, I think Doug's school is $325 for two days. I don't know if he has ever had seven guys, but lets assume he has. That's $2275 or $1137 per day. If $1137 per day a couple of days a month seems like a windfall to you then either you've got another job or you don't have any expenses. That is just another illustration of how things look different through the eyes of those who have a safety net job like you have the luxury of having. See how it make you view things differently?
And as far Ron's opinion of Doug's school goes...... "I've got the best wife in the world"...... Is that a false statement?
Who is going to ever be able to prove me wrong? And who can ever tell me that I can't say it?
Ron doesn't get up out of bed and strap on his ***** President skin for the whole day and unzip out of it when it's time to go to bed.
He can say what he likes regarding his own opinion. There is nothing illegal or unethical about that. In the end we are all human beings and we all have the right to say whatever we like unless we are speaking on behalf of others in an official statement. It's just a goofy position to take especially when you do the math and realize there is no desirable amount of money to be made from it.
And how, pray tell is Ron going to line his pockets with a measly $150 here and $99 there from the org? His fuel bill each month is more than the org would take in over a year if the membership tripled. I've seen his monthly bill. That's why all of this seems so ludicrous when I hear it. Maybe his goal is to get enough members to make a dent in his monthly fuel bill. lol.
The math doesn't add up.
Here's the truth about the certifications Michael. There's nothing more to it than this...No one kept track of who worked on them.
When I was done with the five people who helped write the coil certs with me I turned them over to Bill and told him to find other coil cleaners to look them over and make changes as needed. I directed him to a few of the largest coil cleaners in the US that he could use. (don't remember if I told him, Ron or Doug)
That was the cert with the fewest in the pool to help write, yet at LEAST five helped on just the coil part not to mention the OSHA safety part that I didn't have anything to do with.
So, to be honest I have no idea how many people worked on the coil certification in the end. I have no idea who all helped on the others and why should I care? This isn't about ME. This isn't about one contractor and his OPINION of how things should be done.
This isn't about taking names and "who gets credit for what" or "who is qualified to do what", this was a group effort with many contractors who worked together towards a common goal of putting together tests that measure knowledge of different aspects of our industry.
I personally think it worked out better that way. I think we got a great cross section of the industry.
You were asked numerous times for input. Don't be angry with those who chose to accept the offer to help just because you wouldn't.
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LMAO. Thanks for your bio. I hope I dont have to pay for it and if I do can I get you sign my copy?Tony,
You all just dont get it. Your BOD has put the cart before the horse on the certifications. Or maybe the horse just stopped? I have told many others this and since you brought it up I will say it directly to you. I dont need recognition about the convention I was a chair of. I had plenty of help and there were plnety of things that went wrong. Most of that only a few people only knew or know of. I am no different than the guy who put on the next round table. We have a very successful business and I can say that for the past 10 years or so. I have been blessed with being able to go from a part timer to a full timer. To answer your question from previously I was a professional bullfighter for almost 13 years. Not a clown like I was accused of. But if you want comedy I can show you that? www.*****.org is a good place to start. Its not about bashing but the materials and information that the BOD has released will continue to be detrimental to this Org. Can it succeed with only 100 members? I guess we will see.
My Bio will be available on DVD for $49.95, you can find it at tonywash.com. If you buy it Doug will send you a bucket of whatever that stuff is he uses for 2% off (if you are a ***** member) lol.
I'm glad we can laugh about all that silliness.
The convention thing was just a joke. Personally I got the impression that you did a great job from practically everybody. People were mad about the money issue and that tainted views of the whole thing. I think if you guys had let John pass out more plaques he would have been satisfied too. :)
Sorry about the clown thing. I thought I read it somewhere. I've never been a horse person (I'm a little scared of them) but Fayth has begun taking riding lessons and it looks like she's a natural.
Regarding the Certs:
Can you make some suggestions? What would you like to see?
We already know that the certs testing won't be perfect right off the bat, but we've done the best we could trying to get something out there that can be a general test of knowledge that shows that a guy knows better than to get up gum with a zero degree tip or clean coils with ammonia (it's been done).
This isn't Ron's org Rob. This is our org. Yours. Barry's. Michael's. John's. Nobody needs credit for this. Nobody needs a plaque. This is for all of us. Please give some suggestions and let's discuss them.
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So Tony I am truly happy for you to get over that stroke. Shelly, Faythe,Chris and the rest of your family always comes first.K we can agree that family comes first.
So once again who banned you off of *** and the ***** bb's @ one time? Who did that to you? Was it Ron, Scott? Who?
Russ Spence. A dear friend to this day.
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I don't think you are a flip flopper Tony...I use you often as an example of a person of consistent convictions. We talked about that at length last month. I was only pointing it out because somehow you were led to believe I was upset about a website job.I can't do them all and turn down about half as it is. Even so, I never declined any of the three that involved the ***** or Ron until yesterday when he said that "I was on the agenda" for last nights BOD meeting. I simply asked to be taken off the agenda. Not because I was mad but it would be very difficult to work with some of the people at ***** after yesterday. It just wasn't a good fit.
After we spoke I did relay the suggestions you had to Ron. He initially told me he thought it would be too expensive for the ***** budget at the time.
I never thought much about it after that because, to be honest with you I don't know a lot about all that web stuff. My own site hasn't even been touched in a few years.
The only reason I brought it up was because the stance you have taken on here recently is far more vehement than it was when we talked. I just wondered what could have happened to make you take such a stance after offering your services and thought maybe you felt slighted.
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Tony,Who are you? Are you on the BOD of the *****?
I love it Rob! Makes me think of Las Vegas and CSI.
I will be more than happy to answer that question.
I'm a nobody. I'm a contractor that uses a power washer to clean things.
I've been in this particular business for over nine years. Prior to that I owned other businesses beginning in the late 80's. My first foray into entrepreneurship was as a licensed private investigator in Mississippi in 1989.
To be honest, there were times when I was a part-timer in those businesses and was not successful enough to make it without selling cars, repairing computers and software and even selling and building franchises. I did what I had to do just like many here.
I haven't cashed a paycheck in almost 17 years.
That doesn't make me any better than anybody else, but it puts me in a position of being on guard all the time for things that might disrupt my income.
I am not on the ***** Board of Directors.
Unfortunately during the time of the ***** elections I had complications from a stroke that caused memory problems that lasted almost two months. I couldn't even find my way home. I would have to speed dial Shelly for directions back to the house many times. I had no idea when it would stop.
Even though Ron respected my views and we are best friends, he used his own judgement and suggested to me that he would advise that members not vote for me at that time. It was the right thing to do. I was in no condition to deal with the pressures of being a BOD.
I may have not been elected anyway. Who knows? All I know is, during the time of the elections I couldn't read a full paragraph in a book and I refused to talk to people on the phone because it was embarrassing to forget who and what you were talking about.
That was no condition to be in as a BOD. Thankfully whatever caused the problem disappeared in January of that year and the doctor says it's over with.
Earlier this year I was appointed as the Region 9 Environmental Director. It's not a lofty position. It simply means that I have volunteered my services to continue researching and studying environmental issues and trying to keep on top of what is happening. It means I have the responsibility for working closely with ***** State directors in Arizona, California, Hawaii, Nevada, the Pacific Islands and the Tribal Nations. We are currently looking for more help in parts of California, Hawaii, the Pacific Islands and the Tribal nations. I have no doubt good people will step up and volunteer soon.
There are 9 other regions of the EPA. So not only am I not a BOD, I'm not the Environmental Chair, and I'm not even 1/10th of the regional directors. So Rob, I'm a nobody.
But I'm a nobody with business experience, ethics, and power washing experience under my belt (if I could ever see my belt), that I have offered up to the ***** to help them redefine our industry.
However, with the help of the BOD, the Environmental Chair, all the other chairs, the state directors and every other voluntary position on the ***** ........ I am somebody.
I'm part of something that isn't about putting a few bucks in their pockets at the expense of the industry as a whole.
I'm part of something that doesn't need a lofty title to put our noses to the grindstone and get to work.
I'm part of something that doesn't care who gets the credit for a Convention. (come on, laugh, that's a joke)
I have always paid for my membership even when I could have gotten it for free at one time because I believed in it.
So, Rob, I'm nobody, but together we are somebody. We need as many nobody's as we can get.
Does that answer your question?
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Lolololol.. Now that's funny. When do we get to read our private text on a bb? Tomorrow? Today? Lol..I don't know what John did with my original post, nor how he even accessed it, but here it is. I'm only posting to try to get some clarification on what John is doing with my posts:
Sometimes certs are simply about learning new things as the industry progresses as Ron pointed out.
[h=2]BArry Please ask some questions here about the ***** certification[/h]
Originally Posted byRuss Spence
So in all truthfulness what about any certification makes someone better than someone else?I have never had someone ever ask if I was certified, not ever. No insurance requirement to do it, not required to purchase the equipment nor to even get a business license.Did *** make you better?Doesn't learning make you better, on going learning will always help you not hurt you.Text me anytime for question 480-522-5227 -
Lolololol.. Now that's funny. When do we get to read our private text on a bb? Tomorrow? Today? Lol..I don't get it. I pulled the quote and removed it within seconds. How are you able to go back and repost things I've edited? And what happened to the rest of the quote?
Do you do this often with other people's accounts? Is that what happened at the other forum that caused you to lose your controls?
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John, there is no way I can respond to that other than time will tell.
What you see as throwing others under the bus, I see as pointing out hypocrisy.
I explained the difference between a part timer and a full timer. Maybe it would help if you go back and reread it.
Thanks for your input John.
The problem with this is what's the right thing and what's the classless thing to do. You would Post your kids private text to you all over the net where most other people consider texting to be like a phone call. Wasn't it you who got to listen to a boat load of Rons private phone calls with others and then you came here to tell everyone? Yes you and you know exactly what I'm talking about.You want to be civil Tony then there's a two way street. If you want to do what you do on a different bb where you take pics of other people's place of employment and post those pics on the net to criticize them.. You'll find your way right back to where you came from.
As for the Vegas Event that's past now. What's done is done. This wasn't about you and Ron. That's some type of Ego thing that you two need to work out.
But just be very well aware since Your now involved with an organization.. If you or Ron try to throw others under the bus like you both tried to do in the past then you will keep seeing most people in the Industry reacting the way they are right in this thread probably everywhere and anywhere on the net.
You won't fool most business people part timers or not.. Where all far from Stupid.
Also since your already alienating part timers to full timers maybe you should think that some guys do the two jobs,because like you, they have to bring in enough money to take care of their families and children especially and I for one will never treat them like they don't belong here or anywhere in this Industry. Since this is apparently the stand you people in position at the ***** now appear to have---- well shame on you guys!!!!
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I was going to post some info copied from Ron on the other forum about more info on the certs, but I will keep it here.
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You are confusing two different issues....actually three if you count the one I never told you anything about.Doug asked me about building a new ***** website. That fizzled out pretty quickly and was pretty much dead before we talked. When I called you, I offered to (for free) to build an integrated EPA cleaning blog network, with multiple people involved, no central hub, no owner. That was what I asked you to run by the others. Not long after that, Ron asked if it was possible to build a WordPress front-end for *** and 3 other forums. I built a quick demo and I tried several times to get him to look at it and call me. After three weeks of no contact, I assumed the idea was dead.
I get lots of people that ask and never follow up. Ron's mockup site was one rare time I did any work without money down and I learned again why I had this rule.
Business is business....Even though Ron was not the nicest guy after I built a directory, I was still open to doing work for him. Even though I am not a big fan of the *****, I was willing to build a website for them.
I don't formulate my opinions over revenge for one or two websites. That's ridiculous. I have not changed my position on anything relating to this industry in years.
Just last Sept I was in the cert thread on *** with exactly the same opinion as this one. My opinion of the ***** has not changed since it was formed and that spans multiple flip flops of some of the current ***** members. Same with certs, same with Robert H and the BMP's.
In other words Tony, my consistent positions....popular or unpopular right now, are subject to the whims of other people changing their minds. I can't control that. If some don't like how I feel about something or someone, I just need a year or two before they come around.
I really hope you don't expect me to agree with everything you believe in....as a condition of friendship.
My opinions have changed very little also. But as convincing arguments come from the opposing positions I'd be a fool if I didn't realize that sometimes I am wrong and my position needs to be re-evaluated. Even so, you would be hard pressed to find anywhere I've flip-flopped.
Michael likes to bring up the fact that I had a signature making fun of certs. Yes I did. At the time it seemed like everybody and their dog was coming out with some kind of certification and it was looking ridiculous. I even had one myself! lol.
Once I saw what the ***** had in their vision I realized that it could be good for everybody. There was nothing secret or goofy going on and none of the guys in the leadership positions were in a financial position that could be easily bettered by their involvement.
As I've stated before. It's not in my DNA to fully comprehend concept of making a decision to be involved with something just because of "bennies". But, I do understand there are many out there who don't have the time or money to put towards a cause and they simply want a return on their investment.
Barry, I hope you can see that I am neither a flip-flopper that changes on a whim, or acts hypocritically, or, on the other end a hard-head who refuses to change even when proven wrong, because of an overabundance of pride.
I believe in the ***** and I believe in Ron. I live near Ron and have spent more time with him than anybody on any of these boards. I've listened to him being berated and yelled at by guys who hide who they really are and make you guys think they are saints.
Ron has a lot on his table. He can't follow up on everything and has to make decisions every day on what is a priority. He also has three little kids and three adult kids he has to deal with, plus a business to run that he has to work with at all hours of the day and night.
Is a person supposed to deal with all that plus be the president of an org without ever offending anyone?
Maybe it's time to take move the conversation from the org and just let everybody list how Ron, a stranger to most of you other than texts, phone calls and PM's has ruined all of your lives by failing to stop by on their way through California, not following up on some web stuff, texting one million texts in two minutes or whatever new thing has come up.
Before you start posting your complaints think about this: In over 13 years dealing with contractors Ron has put on events that brought us all together, built the largest powerwashing board in the world, helped promote hundreds of events that weren't his own, and in all that time not one single contractor has ever been financially wronged in any kind of business dealings and sued him. Lots of accusations and other garbage have been claimed, but if the worst anybody can throw at him is "He's trying to take over the industry" and "he texts me all the time" and other such nonsense, I'd say that speaks a lot louder than backroom phone conversations.
And no, we don't have agree. We don't have to be twins to be brothers. And we are brothers in this industry.
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NOTE TO ALL:THE ***** PRESIDENT IS NOW POSTING PRIVATE TEXT MESSAGES ON HIS BB!! A TRUE INDUSTRY LEADER doing what he does best.
John, I'd like to introduce you to the wonderful world of just being honest all the time.
Unless texts reveal information that is proprietary to your business or personal in your family life that you've asked not to be revealed, there is an unbelievable peace in knowing that even private texts will not portray you in a different light than your public posting does.
With that philosophy one never has to worry about conversations or texts revealing a Mr. Hyde.
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Barry, Michael or Rob, could you post your preferred answer to each of the questions below? What would you like to see?
Roof Cleaning Cert QuestionsGeneral questions
- Does anyone know the standards for ***** roof cleaning certification?
- Is there any questions on the test relating to cleaning products?
- Is it possible for someone that has never cleaned a roof for hire to become certified?
- Are there any marketing materials provided to the newly certified roof cleaner by the *****?
- Is there any pricing or estimating assistance or handouts/guidelines specific to Cert holders?
- Is there any document that shows how or why the standards as they exist were developed? FAQ?
- Is there a phone number for customers of certification holders to ask questions?
- Is there a web portal for customers of certification holders to submit questions?
- Regarding the non-profit status, Will the ***** track and document the certification earnings of approved training sources that are also members of the *****?
Assuming anyone can be certified, regardless of product, pressure, non-pressure:
- Is the ***** going to honor a manufactures recommendations for cleaning their product?
- What is the position of the ***** if a homeowner calls them, because two certified cleaners are bidding two different procedures and claiming his fellow certified roof cleaner is using a dangerous method?
- Is there a policy against negative information being provided to homeowners about a fellow certified roof cleaner that uses a different method?
- If a roof or gutter is damaged by a surface cleaner, would the ***** be libel to the homeowner?
- Could that same contractor in #4 also sue the ***** for not informing him of the dangers in the certification process?
- If it is discovered that a prospective member getting a ***** certification intends on using a product that has long term toxicity issues, will he still be able to become certified?
Regarding Support
- Most organizations/companies have a knowledge base available for the members to self support. Many also offer group support in forums. Given the reluctance to answer questions in a group setting at this stage, what plans if any exist to resolve this lack of details?
- Same question as above, except for homeowners and commercial customers of a certified member.
- Who is responsible for and the point of contact for complaints?
- Does anyone know the standards for ***** roof cleaning certification?
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Ok Huckleberry(your words) since Rob told Your Boss that Robert founded the ***** and thats it why does your boss now put Rob Huffman in as a Cofounder?How about your Boss putting down partime Powerwashers right here on TGS then defies what his fellow BOD's put out here that the policy of your org is for the Board to not endorse or promote private schools?
Hey since your here what's the story about you and your boss yacking all over the place how your going to do a Vegas Event the same day we have one planned and now your dropping a RT right between 2 major Industry one? What's the purpose of that?
So the goal is to get the ***** BODS selling schools and Certs to the Free ***** members?
You guys are kidding no one. Can't wait to hear your explanations why you two tried to sabotage other hard working contractor events and trying to back stab a few of us such as what Ron did to Rob who point blank told him he's not or ever was a cofounder of the UA*MC just to cause Drama.
Go ahead Huckleberry(your words) let's see how your going to duck around this one.
2300+ viewers will be reading your responses..
I can't answer for Ron, but I will answer for myself.
Here's the simple fact, If I am climbing without a rope (my sole income comes from powerwashing) then I am much more likely to be very careful in the moves I make. One wrong move could kill me. (destroy my income). I am much more likely to spend the time and effort to learn how to climb properly and do it right. I would get on boards and learn from others who had been there before me, successfully completed the climb and carefully try to follow their lead.
Few of us start off full time. It's almost impossible. But the ones who ARE in the business with no safety ropes have more stake in the game than the marathon part-timers who always rely on other sources of income and are much more likely to take changes in the industry and dangers to our income seriously.
You've got guys like Michael P complaining about the ***** when, in reality the whole industry could fall of the map and it wouldn't hurt his income one bit. I'd say that puts him in an entirely different category than many of us. He doesn't have as much "skin in the game".
If you take that as putting down part-timers that is just your own personal feeling. Almost all of us were part-timers at one time or another. The perpetual part-timers just fall in a different category. It would be like if you claimed that if I said Fayth had less "skin in the game" than Chris in regards to completing storefront powerwashing jobs that I was "putting down" Fayth.
These are just facts, not putting anyone down.
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Regarding endorsing. On a personal level Ron can endorse whatever he likes. What you are saying is tantamount to saying that now that Ron is president he needs to go back and remove all his posts about how he likes Landa Waterjets. It's silly.
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Your assumption about schools is ridiculous. Did you know the PWNA asked me multiple times to teach a coil cleaning school through them? They wanted to charge over $2k each and have me fly down to Delco to do it. I wonder if they market those schools? Go take a look and see.
On the other hand we have the ***** which is selling zero schooling. All they are doing is accepting training in ANY school, including the pwna schools, as a prerequisite to take a certification test in lieu of five years verifiable experience.
How can one be more openly slanted in their views John?
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Who cares who the founders of the ***** are? Not everyone cares about "plaques" and "awards" and all that other fluff. Some of us would rather just get something positive done and couldn't care less about who founded what or who got what award or what celebrities or politicians one has met in their line of work. The fact is, the ***** is not yet fully built. Once it is done some people will just naturally be remembered as the "founders". All the blogging on the internet claiming to found something doesn't really mean a lot in the end.
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I don't know anything about all your talk about sabotaging any contractors events. If there was going to be any sabotaging I guess I'd be the first to know because I live here. Maybe you can fill me in with all the details and you and I can get to work sabotaging. Lol.
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I'll leave you with an example the difference between a full timer and a part timer, maybe this will help you get it:
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I'm your huckleberry.
Rob, I thought you were literally a rodeo clown either now or in the past. I apologize for bringing that up if it isn't true, but that's what I thought you said before.
And where are those 80 texts? Didn't Ron ask you to post them up if they exist? It's one thing for you to call a man a liar, but it's another to produce evidence. One of you is lying, either you or Ron. It's pretty simple to figure out who. Just post the texts.
These guys on the ***** Bod are doing a great job dealing with you guys. It is the exact opposite of what was going on when the old ***** was in place.
There's no running and hiding from questions here. They have answered the questions SO WELL that most of them have been removed from posting here in hopes that you will finally find someone who runs and hides or is afraid to stand up. You guys keep asking the same questions over and over again and look more foolish each time. The repetitive attacks are adding to the paid ***** membership weekly.
It's pretty easy to see these are just personal issues. Apparently Rob has some problem with someone he calls "the blob" while whining about being called "a clown". What's next, is Michael going to complain about being called a "police officer"?
You guys show your inexperience by ragging on Doug for his "school". It only shows that you have had no experience teaching a school because if you did, you'd know that the money made in such enterprises (at least at the rates Dough is charging) won't buy a family a round of big macs after expenses and you usually lose more money from the work you can't do during that time than you made.
Doug has been blessed in this business and he takes his own time, charges what he has to in order not to lose money, and takes guys who would otherwise go out and destroy houses and concrete and teaches them the fundamentals. Are you guys simply angry because you aren't willing to give of your own time and do the same?
And Barry, didn't you call me and offer to do web work for Ron for a fee? Didn't you ask me to talk to him and see if he would use your services to forward the cause we were working towards in the environmental department? Are you just angry that Ron decided the org didn't have enough money to pay you for something that other members have voluntarily offered their time and effort for free? If what we were doing was good enough for you to be paid to help then why is it all the sudden a bad thing? I don't get it.
Every one of you have been asked repeatedly to join, free of charge, and help. I don't know how we could make it any easier than that.
And Rob, we've all made mistakes. We've all gotten involved in things that we have later looked back and regretted. But not all of us sit back and use that as an excuse to tear down guys who take it over and succeed with it.
Carlos made some mistakes. He did some things that were not completely honest in dealing with speakers and such. But he's one of the toughest guys I know. He took what he learned, put it in practice, went to the back of the bus and busted his rear end to provide for his family and show that he is a true powerwasher at heart, not a web guru, not a part-timer relying on powerwashing to buy his ATV's and big rims on his truck, but a true, work-all-night, dumpster-juice-in-the-face contractor. I've spent some time face to face with Carlos and have come to respect him and his family. I don't regret coming forward and confronting mis-truths, but I do regret not getting to know Carlos better first so I could better understand his decision making process and reason with him more like a human being rather than a faceless creature on the other side of a computer monitor.
Maybe the problem is that you guys don't know the BOD and only know what others whisper to you on the phone.
Don't any of you find it funny or at least interesting that none of the contractors who live and work in Ron's region dislike him the way you internet warriors do?
Me, My son, Chris, Scott, Ty, Tom, Lou, etc, all live and work in Ron's region, but not a single one of them has anything bad to say about him except for Jim Cooney, who tried desperately to take Ron's accounts from him, but now has his "I don't ever do anything for less than 8 cents a foot" business up for sale with a broker showing a claimed gross income of only $160k/yr and a net of around $40k.
And what about Doug **********? So a retired police officer from New York who has never met him hates him. How does that mesh with the local contractors he works with in Texas who never have a bad word to say about him?
And what about Doug's "distributorship"? It's the same as Ron's was. Ron bought so much Landa equipment it was to his advantage to become a Landa rep so he could buy his own equipment at wholesale. When Ron was a Landa "distributor" I called Ron to buy some surface cleaner parts and he offered to give them to me for free. But yet, you guys all called him a distributor back then.
Doug has a distributorship for some cleaner he uses a lot of. So what? So what if he sells some of it to offset his cost? What about the F-9 guys? My son is afraid to buy F-9 wholesale and become a "distributor" for fear someone will bring that up on me later and call me a distributor. What lunacy! A guy selling off a little overage on his chemicals is a far cry from being a Russ, Jerry, Paul or Pete.
Do any of you guys ever subcontract for another power washer? Does that make you a "vendor" just because you offer services to "contractors" and charge something for it?
It's time to bring some sanity into this conversation and make a formal declaration that ALL of us are in a position to occasionally charge another contractor for something and make money "off of other contractors".
But there is a line somewhere that differentiates between a contractor and a vendor. So far we haven't even come up with anyone who is close to that line.
Carlos sells chems, but he is definitely a contractor.
Mike K sells various things, but he is a contractor.
The only example I can think of who would be close to that line is Matt Johnson and I don't know what percentage he gets off sales vs contracting.
Paul K, has a huge contracting business, but he's stepped up and taken on the label of "vendor" for the sake of his own conscience and honesty.
You guys are looking foolish with this. The BOD wiping the floor with you and you don't even know it.
As far as the certs go, there has never been a time in the history of power washing where the entire community was asked to bring input for certifications before now. You are speaking of these certifications as if somehow we, who participated together in the preparation of the tests, purport to be the only ones who know anything about powerwashing.
The fact is we don't know everything. That is why we have an open free membership to allow anyone with anything positive to add to join and give their input. If the entire power washing community can't be trusted to come together and come up with some basic standards and practices, then there is no one qualified to do so.
This is not a Robert Hinderliter style invitation where everyone is invited as long as they be quiet and accept what's already there. For example, multiple coil cleaners were used in the coil cleaning cert. We had differing opinions on methods. Some of those questions were simply discarded because, even though we were each adamant in the validity of our method, the fact was, each of them accomplished the goal of safely cleaning the coils. Those questions had to be taken out because they were not "standards" but rather, our own personal preferences.
These certs are evolving and will continue to evolve as more members offer more and more input. There are some basics that don't change. No matter how much time passes I can't imagine that cleaning your face with caustic would ever be a "best practice". There are just some things that are cut and dry.
As technology evolves there will be changes and we need to keep up with that. That is where all the members come in. That is where you guys come in. If you want to see good standards and practices bring them on and together we will make them part of the certs.
The ***** is your org. It's not Ron's, Chris A's, Bill's, Dougs, Michael or Robert H's, Daryl Mirza's, or Mike Hilborn's. It's yours.
If it weren't that way there's no way on earth the BOD would have opened up a free membership to build it into a true contractor for contractor org. There will have to be some give and take with all that many people involved. If you don't have the ability to flex and work with others then maybe it would be best for you to abstain from joining anything or join the Pwna and come back and take a closer look at the ***** after the building process has had more time.
Meanwhile, as long as my ban has expired, you guys can have at me all you want.
I'm your huckleberry.
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Cleaned my first coil at age 12. My mentor was an uncle who never had a job. He is 81 now and still doing residential AC work because he is bored otherwise.
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I an a fanatic about timing things. That knowledge has saved my tail on many bids.
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John, there are these guys doing a tv documentary on internet addiction. They would like to talk to you. It's not an intervention or anything like that...no really..it's not. lol. Jk.
Good luck John. See you back on in a week. Will miss you when you're gone.
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Welcome to commercial work Doug! What took you so long? lol
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I had dry clean delivery vans with vinyl installed in 1998 that still looked fine with no peeling and limited fading in 2006.
On the other hand our flatbed has vinyl less than 3 yrs old that is both peeling and badly faded.
There must be a wide variation of vinyl quality.
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FREE Roof Cleaning Certifications?? Say it can't be so..........
in Business Topics & Tips
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On his way how? According to the PWNA he doesn't even have a business?
Could you lay out any possible scenario where Ron could "take over"? Give me a scenario with some numbers and I'll consider that possibility.
I told you I will research that.
If you are unprepared to continue on with the certification issue I will give you time also.
If you insist on dealing with the other issue first I will need a few days. (you know what's coming, get ready for a boatload of references and links)
Right now I've got a dance to go to with the most beautiful daughter in the world (Can I say that?)