plainpainter

You know Terry - I've forgotten more than you'll ever know when it comes to painting. And I like how you worded your sentence about 12 year longevity - nobody gets that on a horizontal surface.

My conclusion the only way to restore this type of siding is to remove all the oxidation - and the only way to do that is heavy concentrations of sodium hydroxide/TSP loads of brushing, multiple applications, and very high pressure washing....Run!

Choosing deck stains the past few years has been troublesome at best. My frustrations have been - as much as my customers have dropped their jaws from the final finish - and despite the fact I have used every trick in the book - there is still something amiss in my eyes with the finish. Now there is this competitor in my area - and they did this deck by the roadside last summer - I drive by it as least once a week - and it looked beautiful the day they put it on - and almost a year later - the deck looks totally rocking - Except for a single vein {wood has tricky spots, nothing you can do} the deck truly has an appearance that has not faded one iota! I have almost swallowed my pride on several occasions and nearly stopped to knock on the guy's door and ask if they know what product was used, but I restrained for many reasons. The finish is that gorgeous. So I go on this competitor's website and they mention the stain they use has over 75% solids. So I start looking through the different manufacturers to check out what the solids content are - thinking perhaps TWP 500 series is such - but no, I try others. Then I do a search and find an article and link to A.C.'s website - lo and behold their semi-trans is 75% solids - PAYDIRT!!! I've been drooling over this deck for about a year now! Now I have the confirmation of what the product is. Like I said - you use every trick up your sleeve to make sure a job turns out well and looks great - and even though the customer loves it - you just know it should be so much better. And I know my competitor doesn't really prep nearly as much as I do. So now I am really looking forward to using Armstrong-Clark - I've been watching the results for a year and love what I am seeing.

Just me

This is my second one and they both sucked. That's why from now on there is a 50% increase from my normal rates - what should have been a 2 hour job from pull-in to pull-out with my pididdly equipment - turned out much longer. Missed sections? Are you kidding me? I blanketed this house twice over in the good spots - let alone the bad. Even above the front entrance which looked all goofy up top - still looked goofy after coming back and brushing it out.

LOL - goes to show how some folks inspect their home with a magnifying glass! Apparently there is a white residue - and its patterned exactly after the algae - here is a macro shot of it. It's thick and crusty - my best bet it's the actual oxidation that didn't get exposed to chems evenly - as the algae was 'shielding' it. You can even see snail trails in the lower left hand corner. I must have 'hit' this area at least 3X and let it dwell while I went and washed another side. I am starting to rethink dark colored neglected vinyl homes.

Ok - here is another before and after from the same side of the house - maybe you can see it better here. I have one more macro shot - but let's see if you see anything here.

Here is a before and after of one area the guy was complaining about - let's see if you can see what he means.

I know how to get that crap off - but I won't tell you - you might be a fool enough to try it and get hurt. You can't strip solid oil based stains with these semi-transparent stain strippers. Even if that crap could come off with a 'boosted' HD80 formula like Beth is suggesting - we're talking $3/sq.ft. absolute minimum, and I don't mean just the footprint of the deck - at least double the footprint to get a feel for total square footage.

I washed 7 homes this week - that's about half my entire total of last year.

I downstream - I didn't leave residue - just an inordinate amount of oxidation from old weathered vinyl. The soap I use is Bob's soap - my mixture is too strong as it is. I rinse endlessly - I downstream soap a minimum of twice per side, sometimes 3-4 times in really bad algaed areas

I am coming to the conclusion that nothing performs on newer decks - even pressure treated that's exposed to the elements for a year seems to be barely stainable, imo. I am going to consider Scott's Creto wood for fairly new pressure treated from now on. And just let the harder woods age. Even TSP/Bleach brushed only opens the top surface and breaks up the millglaze - but it still doesn't 'open' up the top layer of wood for deep penetration. I did this one pressure treated deck that was a year old - and had a big stainless steel grille that sat in one spot. I took the grill off - cleaned the deck with a bleach/TSP solution, along with the house, to knock off the grey wood and mildew. And pumped on a strong concentration of OX to really bleach the heck out of it - the deck accepted woodtux fairly well - but that one spot with the grille - even though got a brushed TSP/Bleach cleaner and a strong OX solution had stain sitting on top of the surface, where as the remainder of the deck the stain soaked in!

I am starting to have customers all antsy about particular times of day of when I show up. I am going to start telling folks that I can tell them within the week and that's it. How do you guys approach this? They act as if I got all the time in the day and can schedule a wash to within the hour - this is starting to be ridiculous!

If you are going to 'maintain' a finish {i.e. you won't be removing the older finish} The you wash and then restain. Why on god's earth would you sand down a previous finish if you won't be stripping it? You'll end up the worst of all worlds! Sanding doesn't clean dirt off of wood - sanding doesn't get deep in the crevices and kill the mildew and algae. And lastly you will be sanding a finish you maintain - you will get the utmost worst blotchy results. It is perhaps true you don't have to strip penofin if you will be maintaining the finish with more penofin on a yearly or bi-yearly basis - but you do have to clean the previous finish before laying down a new coat of stain. Sanding doesn't accomplish any of your objectives whatsoever!!!!!!!! Guys like us sand after stripping an old finish to remove the 'fuzzies' and just generally get an even wood surface to accept a new coat of stain. But if I am going to maintain a year or two year old finish - then you wash it - then stain. No sanding period!

How's this for 'improper' prep for ya Rick. Here is a step built for my friend's Dad who was dying at the time and couldn't even make this step - so this in between step was made for him. I did a bunch of things for my Friends mom back in June of '07 - painting, carpentry, and stained this step. It was already 5-6 years old at the time - never treated and greyed out. I had a 5'er with about an inch of downstream solution that I had leftover from a house wash 3 days prior - to give you an idea from what I was working with. So I added water to an already weakened/old solution to make sure I had enough to spread around. I then used a deck scrub brush - and dipped into this bleach solution and just scrubbed it on - and I kept scrubbing it and scrubbing it - to make up for the obvious lack in strength of the cleaning solution - and the fact I didn't have a pressure washer with me at the time. I then finally unraveled her hose and with my thumb 'rinsed' this little step off - after a 60 second 'dry' time - what do you think the moisture meter read, Rick? I took out some leftover Woodtux wet warm honey gold and just brushed it into this little step. And here is the photo - taken back in early April of '08 - a Full 10 months and one New England winter after the cleaning and application of stain. Not bad - ehh? I spent 1000X the amount of prep on my own deck than this little POS. But look how nice the color is there - it looks great even after one year - and how many rules did I break? I will drive by and take photos tomorrow to see how it's doing at the 2 year mark - bet it still looks great!

I washed the deck today Rick with some of that Arm & Hammer clothes washing detergent with Oxi-Clean - will post pics of it tomorrow after it's first washing of the year. I'm only mildly convinced that TWP-200 has some potential - but it isn't recommended for horizontal surfaces.

Ok - Rick - so a deck that is 4 feet above the ground - has been drying for over 2-3 days of nice dry blue-sky October days - and you think you need a moisture meter? I've stuck moisture meters into more places than I care to think - and the thing I have learned, is when wood feels dry - it probably is dry. As far as I know - Baker's and TWP even though touted by you guys as parafinnics are not true parafinnics - they aren't like readyseal - only TWP200 is a true parafinnic. I don't have a problem with the application of this stain - it is what it is - parafinnics are junk!!!! There is nothing binding, no resins, no nothing to bind trans-oxide pigments to the surface - it just leeches endlessly away.....and away.....and away..... I will coat this deck again this year for $hit 'n giggles, but it just confirms what I think about a deck stain - nothing like a curing resin like a linseed or tung oil alkyd to make a great deck stain - can't wait to start using Armstrong Clark - I see the value of a partially parafinnic component to a stain - but there still needs to be a 'lid' to hold it all in place.

And here is the '3rd' coat going on the same day back in Oct. of '08. Look like enough is going on?

So here is a picture taken almost a year later Oct. 12 of '08 - yes it had been washed 4 times prior over the entire length of spring/summer/early fall- but only 2 cups of household bleach per gallon with dishwashing soap and nothing else! Brushed on from a bucket - did wash the final time with Deckswood at half strength to remove all the iron rings - as it's an oxalic product and lots of tannins from leaves of an overhead walnut tree.

Ok I am going to be forced into giving a detailed time lapse of my work due to some pretty ridiculous comments about 'proper' prep or was did I check the 'moisture' levels. Honestly, Rick, what a lot of hocus pocus - I bought into all that 'moisture' level ding-dong several years ago, bought all the meters - and what I found out, was that when wood felt dry to the hands, it was well below 14% moisture. So all that said - here is the original finished product, picture taken Nov. 1 of '07 This is after 2 coats applied a month apart.

It was 2 cups of household bleach per gallon of water and some dishsoap. I washed the deck several times - because each time I was going to stain it - something came up. I don't know where you are going with this thought? Those washes I was talking about was performed in '08 prior to it being sealed a 3rd time last fall. The picture you are looking at was taken in just the last day - it was stained 7 months prior. the 'pale' look you describe is exactly my complaints - these parafinnic stain just don't hold up well. It is that pale looking in real life.

I said CLEAN - SAND - RESTAIN - how did you misinterpret what I said? Please re-read my original response and indicate where you got from me to only sand and restain.

I clean and sand and restain - but the 'cleaning' process is really a stripping of the old deck stain and neutralizing - and then giving the deck a good sanding - and then staining.

Here is a picture of my timberoil deck - been stained twice in '07 after being fully restored and not just sanded, but floors ground flat with a floor edger, and then washed it a few times in '08 - as I kept never getting around to it - but after being washed on 4 seperate occasions with a very weak bleach and dishwater soap - it got stained again in oct '08. Each time this stain looks great after putting down - and here is a picture of it after being stained 3 times with a parafinnic and then having gone through a new england winter - the finish is now 7 months old. This is a an every year affair - no way this could ever look good enough to go two years. This type of oil stain is just not sellable to clients.

I assume by this you mean sealing is a top layer curing stain vs. something penetrates into the depths of the wood. The problem I have with this Jim - is that I have been 'preserving' one of my own decks with timberoil the past two seasons {2 coats separated by a month in the fall of '07 - then a single coat early fall of '08} And I don't like the look of this 'preserved' deck - it's faded, it's dry looking - and doesn't even go a full year between coats looking great. I will continue with this procedure and see if I am missing anything. But I just don't see how your customers accept this kind of work as passable? I could understand maintaining a curing finish at year 2 with a parafinnic/curing hybrid stain - and then only a parafinnic stain at year 4. I just don't understand the 'readyseal' business model. And on woods like ipe - which the finish gets 'bounced' off completely after a year anyways - what 'preserving' were you actually accomplishing? At least you could say for pressure treated over the years even if the surface gets all mucked up - more and more oils are inside - but ipe none of the oils you applied remain over time.