plainpainter

Care to elaborate on all the possible 'basket's out there? Well - looks like I will be getting a HIC license. I know folks still need roofs done even during slow times. God I hate roofing....

My prediction for '09. 2009 is going to be the year when contractors either learn to sell their services for high rates at high closing ratios - or they will go bust.

2008 definitely affected my business this year - perhaps some escaped - but I doubt 2009 will be a banner year for anyone. Just because an economy is bad - doesn't mean everyone feels the effects equally or even immediately - but everyone is going definitely feel it next year. You can skip out on a yearly house wash if you're having money troubles.

Customer called that he has some tannic stains on his deck from a bunch of leaves from two months ago - and he thought the stains would weather off - but they haven't. He's asking if there is something I could in the spring time - and of course my thoughts are to use oxalic acid. Now the question - this is a woodtux restored deck. Is it ok to wait for the springtime - or is it something that should be taken care of now as soon as possible?

Kevin - you are in sacramento california - you have no idea about New England winter weather. LOL.

There's always that January 'thaw'. Well I have my first 'maintenance' work!

So what does everyone think of this recession in terms of weeding out the 'weak' hands in our industry. I know when times get tough, newly laid off engineers pick up paint brushes and flood the market and the same happens with pressure washing. But I think this time around the recession is so deep, that all these lowballers and 'weak' hands are letting go - so when things turn around, hopefully it will leave the field wide open to more established companies with proper pricing. Any thoughts?

I hate to say it - but I will be switching over to Armstrong-Clark without having tried it. My timberoil stained deck is freakin black - and there is no way I am going to use a 100% parafinnic product with New England weather'd abused decks - unless I get customers who insist on paying me to come every 6 months to redrench their decks. I will also continue on with an over-the-shelf available product from California that I think has a high degree of quality.

I agree 100%

Rod - you use 16 ozs of acid gallon?!?!? Holy smokes! I tried Bob's oxalic at 9 ozs. per gallon once, and it made the wood look like dried out white bones!

I've actually learned to downstream using just that ballvalve that Russ is showing - I don't use the wand for much anymore.

I have always personally thought that oxalic acid in quantities of 8 ozs. per gallon should be applied directly to dwelling stripper - instead of rinsing stripper first. I haven't seen any evidence either that after you really rinse stripper - that there is anything left to 'neutralize'. I think the neutralization is more for sequestering the tannins out from the wood to get it back to a more pleasing color. But the above method - would negate one rinsing - thus saving time. Don't believe me - try this for an experiment - soak your deck with your favorite sodium hydroxide based stripper - just before you rinse - apply your favorite percarb cleaner, whether it's efc-38, F-10, or 3/4 cup oxiclean & 1/4 cup TSP per gallon. Apply it to the dwelling stripper. You will immediately see the wood brighten right up - not as much as applying acid - but brightens nontheless.

I've done a few strips jobs and then brightening - only to come back a few days later and noticed that not all areas of grey were gone sometimes. And my whole reason for this post - is even if I sand down past all the grey - which I have done. Is this 'fresh' layer of wood suitable for staining - or does it need another acid bath to really extract stuff out? I've done decks - where I come back and suitable amount of the stain didn't strip off - and I've spent a whole day sanding everything down baluster and all. Is this sanded down wood as good stripped and then brightened wood? But as Fenner says - we can go on and on, trying to raise the bar on quality - but in reality what's it going to buy us in terms of longevity - a couple more months? And will homeowner spend 30% for a couple more months? Perhaps if a deck could go 4 years and then only need a maintenance - then it might be worth it to them. IF anything, sanding has resulted in a more uniform stain finish - with more penetration. And I have also noticed with woodtux - if you strip and brighten and then stain - you will get the 'yellow' pumpkin like tone on pressure treated. But when you sand afterwards - the color is much deeper and richer in tone. And that alone is worth the price for sanding.

Wow - I have never seen such a concensus before! You still have guys on both sides of the aisle when it comes to cleaning with bleach. But man everyone totally disagrees with this guy's methods. Is this guy, the reason why Tim Carter advises against pressure washers so much?

But I want a cookie cutter approach!

Kevin - turps were used to make Damar varnish - which is a resin from a pine tree - so yes you can use turps. It's just VM&P naptha will get the job done quicker - and there is nothing I can stand worse is fooling around with sap veins - especially when I never bid for the extra work!

Kevin VM&P naptha is much stronger, I think, than turpentine. Turpentine is strong and certainly stronger than all the grades of mineral spirits, except a couple. But VM&P naptha is what I like to use to hit really hardened sap that needs to be emulsified - without being ridiculously cancer causing like toluene or acetone, which are even stronger than VM&P naptha.

Kevin - I was just showing what I do whether it is downstreaming or pump-up. Big jobs I usually downstream acid - my main quesition is to the strength of the acid. I tried Bob's oxalic at 9ozs. per gallon in a pump up sprayer and was horrified at how bleached out white the deck became - so I have been a 'minimalist' ever since - why use more if you don't have to? My acid applications don't do an instantaneous bounce like you say - they're very much gradual and I let the acid dwell for 15+ minutes. And sometimes I don't take my whole trailer rig out. This year I was looking to save money - so sometimes I took a 7hp pressure washer into my van and used a pump sprayer for some of the smaller deck jobs. I realized I was extrememly fast - but I figured what was the point of hauling my tandem axle trailer for $700 jobs start to finish? So sometimes I 'downsized' and I have different application rates when I use a pump up vs. my downstreamer.

Ken - this is exactly how I am doing things now. I had one of those infamous re-lapses of 'technician' thinking. I thank you for doing a virtual 'bonking' on my noodle to set me straight. I have to keep the bigger picture in mind, which is customer satisfaction balanced with time management and profitability. Perhaps what I said would be a better job - but your are right - it's academic at this point - and as well certainly not good enough to make ipe stain jobs last 3-4 years before a maintenance coat. But let me ask you one last question - I am a minimalist when it comes to the acid/brightening step. If apply with a pump up - I apply a fine mist - which I mix 4 ozs. of oxalic per gallon. If I downstream copious amounts of solution - my end mix is 2ozs gallon. I am not the 6 and 8 ozs that I see other guys using. So here comes the question....If I am going to sand wood - should I perhaps go back to the stronger dilutions recommended by the manufacterers of 8-9 ozs. per gallon - to make sure of a more even sequestering deeper into the wood? So I am still left with ample 'treated' wood after sanding?

I've noticed on my own work - where I sanded down the deckboards alot - even if it's 15-20 yr. old deck boards. They become 'active' again with sap. I've got lots of areas of whiteness now on my decks where sap has been coming to the surface - some decks look worse after my restoration than before sometimes. And I've never really found a good system of removing sap other than hitting it with a scrubber and VM&P naptha.

Thanks for your insight, Rod. I wasn't thinking about sanding the mildew - I was first assuming the stripping part - then come back after deck is stripped - then sand - then neutralize. I see you have a percarb cleaning in your second 'washing' steps. What I would like to know - you say 'wash/strip/neutralize' - do you say 'wash' as a formality? Or do you actually wash a deck before stripping? I've always just gone ahead and stripped decks - sometimes I put a bleach solution if there is real thick stuff that would get in the way of stripping - but rarely. And I have an even greater question. Reading some of Rick Petry's postings I have this sequence a try a couple of times. Strip/percarb-wash/brighten. I don't know if it was a better job - it seems that stripping does the cleaning for the most part anyways - of perhaps I am getting lazy? I guess each deck is different - but under a blanket of water - and it's already 2pm - who wants to really make up a batch of percarb cleaner - if the wood looks good?

Funny thing about the legal issues, Ken. Why is it folks over at Angie's list are free to criticize contractors? And I mean really bad libel like critique! I think all these online critique sites are all bogus. And I've thought about putting up a website like this to warn other contractors of really bad customers. But it would have to be a locked site with members that sponsor other members over time - so the public wouldn't know about the inner workings. But there are some really bad customers out there that contractors need to know about.

Here is a deck I experimented with - I used a locally made off the shelf toner hardwood decking stain for this deck restoration job I completed in late July of '07. The folks in this home are rentors - so this deck sees real world abuse. Since this was for a rental property - I didn't get into sanding at all - just washed it along with the house, using simple cherry and bleach. Then when I killed the mildew and algae - I downstreamed a bottle of Castrol's Super Clean augmented with a cup of lye at 17:1 - then brightened with Oxalic. I sprayed and backbrused the deck - boards soaked in so much stain - that I sprayed them again to really fill 'em up. Altogether took 3 gallons. The 'After' shots are taken a few days ago - so this is 16 months after restoration in New England weather. I was surprised to no see any mildew growth making everything going dark like I am with woodtux. I'd like comments as to what you think. Is this a candidate for a clean and re-coat in the spring? Or do you think it's not good enough shape - I don't have much experience with 'maintenance' decks. '09 will be my first year of maintenance, I don't know when something needs total strip as opposed to a quick clean and another coat.

Beth - what's your favorite percarb product? I am afraid to use the formerly well known suppliers environmental cleaner - as I think it would have a more tendency to strip this stain than it would actually clean it. I lean more towards using bleach and a surfactant for a simple clean that won't strip away the older product too much.

Beth - you'd bother to neutralize after percarbs - especially since there is no bare wood anywhere? I'd just rinse rinse rinse - and let it be. These are rentors - like they'll listen! Ken- not too sure how it will look either, the stain is really high in solvents - it was meant more for harder woods - I had to do two full coats on all the horizontals, which is something I don't do for woodtux. It may be light in pigment now - but I have similarly aged woodtux decks that look totally trashed and black - there just really isn't much mildew growth anywhere - and I am happy about that.