plainpainter

TSP is an alkaline that brings tannins to the surface of the wood - thus the wood darkens - you know this from putting caustic stippers on decks - the wood gets dark. Bleach doesn't sequester tannins like an oxalic acid - but it does whiten them. So when you throw a solution of TSP onto wood - it darkens the wood - and adding bleach counteracts this darkening. I've always used a bleach/tsp/metasilicate/surfactant mix that cleans wood right and because of the surfactant - doesn't allow bleach to attack the good wood. I always got a perfect looking natural wood afterwards. If you are paranoid about the damage of bleach to wood - you can always throw on ascorbic acid afterwards - it dechlorinates the bleach. But I have never seen any problems. I have stains on covered front porches that are over 3 years old now - that still look 90% of brand new - and didn't pay more than $21/gallon. Now I pay $40 + shipping - and I have these issues!

Well before using any esi product - I always used bleach/tsp for cleaning and never ever had any problem - didn't need to neutralize either. I kill mildew with my house washes with 0.5% bleach and surfactants - 1.25% bleach and tsp is plenty. Not to mention - have fun trying to kill mildew with efc-38! I don't diss percarbs, but obviously if that product is any indication of the products out there - then one has to formulate one's own percarb cleaner to get anything half way decent. Rick - sorry for freaking you out. I don't know if this is ESI's fault - or just a new breed of mildew/mold out there. But lots of guys are reporting zero problems with bakers, TWP, etc. I will tell you this - that is brand new pt lumber - but there are several brand new pieces sitting within 30 feet of this railing on saw horses. They have not been cleaned and have not been stained - they are sitting outside in the rain and have no evidence of mold on them.

Well James - I certainly don't have a degree in molds, and with all the failures it's hard to tell the difference between what's at fault and what isn't. But if you above all else say it isn't a woodtux issue - then I believe you. Still gives fuel to the fire whether or not parafinnics are food for mildew or not. Man this has been a tough year in so many different ways! But why don't I see this mildew on adjacent latex painted railings?

It’s obvious you know this by the way you described using bleach and TSP to clean your new 2x6. Using bleach on wood can open up a whole new can of worms on here, but perhaps your bleach solution was too weak to kill the mold spores letting them survive to come back and get you on another day. Len - I have had many years experience killing mold 1.25% is plenty - not to mention there was no evidence of mildew on this board - and the boards that are remaining sitting on saw horses still have no mildew on them. Trisodium Phosphate was once used widely in cloths and dish washing detergents, but it was found to be causing severe algae blooms in the nation’s lakes and streams and since has been virtually banned in these products as from the quote above. I don’t k now for sure, but if your bleach solution was too weak to kill the already present mold spores you may have actually fed them with the TSP. I know you said you solidly washed it, but since bleach and TSP are a base did you neutralize the board with an acid before staining? I use caustics and oxalic process for restoring wood - I always use to use just bleach/tsp one step cleaings without absolutely any harmful side effects. I have been having problems with mildew this year - and I figured perhaps if I used an honest to goodness bleach - that may do the trick. Remember even if I left any 'residue' which I didn't - this is a parafinnic stain not a curing type that is more susceptible to high ph. TSP makes the bleach stronger - it is a detergent builder - softens the water - and it counteracts any whitening the bleach does to the wood. This mildew wasn't on the wood - you can see for yourself that is on top of the wood and migrating down the board. Yeah I've heard that silly arguement that mildew can live anywhere - and while true - it was an arguement meant to make us contractors shut up and not complain about the stain performance. There use to be stains where mildew didn't grow on - that use to be a reality - it wasn't luck of the draw. Stains use to be formulated such that mildews didn't grow on them no matter what!

Here is the other end of this 17foot long railing - the mildew has yet to migrate - but how much more time do you think this end has before it's making love with the mildewfication process? Aren't parafinnic oils not food for mildew? What the hell is going on???

Here are few more pics of this salacious couple caught in the act - I feel like one of those paparazzi photograpers - documenting this unholy couple....Oh yeah remember how I talked about how I had painted the remaining original railings with latex paint - well there is absolutely no mildewifcation/cajun blackening going on with those railings - and I thought mildew grows on the surface of everything, right? And surely the advantages of a parafinnic stain is that it isn't food for mildew right - ha ha hah hahaha ahahah

So here are a few pics of Mr. MoldSpore and Mrs. Timberoil caught in the act - making love.....Don't you think it should be outlawed? What next will Mr. Moldspore and Mrs. Timberoil have marital rights???!?!?!

I thought this was going to be a Russell Cissell thread. LOL.

That's a nice machine - I wouldn't pay that money for it. But that thing probably goes for $2300 brand new - although it ain't worth it in my opinion. It's a brand name - but it's a great engine and a great pump. Kind of like buying blue jeans with the levi-strauss label stuck on it - you're paying for the label.

Tape mouths of whiny customers

Ant - the majority of voters are working stiffs that don't own their own company. And in the big states such as Ohio and Pennsylvania - where McCain really needed a win - he was met by a populace with record unemployments. Lets not forget - loads of job are going overseas - and despite what many think - the republican party has been making it very easy for them to do this. I am not sayng McCain was one of those republicans - but he got tied down with party affilitation.

I haven't dared ask! This job is about 15 months old now - but still an utter failure in my opinion. Not to mention the porch covered floorboards would have still looked dang good after 3 years with my previous stain. Goes to show the mildew failure doesn't even need direct water on top of it to get it going like Jim thought - this is porch covered, so it's pretty dry even during rainstorms! Cajun Blackened Deck!!!!!

Rick I was removing 6+ coats of porch & floor paint, some latex and some oil based in the mix. As I knew this was totally out of the realm of HD-80. I decided to go in the opposite direction in the ph range - as I was very familiar in the past of how well batter acid removes paint! The sodium bicarbonate - was the 'neutralizer', albeit against common sense - remember I went on the totally opposite end of the scale - the bicarbonate of soda is like a ph of 8 - using it to neutralize the sulfuric acid - I was still left with very light colored wood. But like you said - I ended up grinding a whole bunch of wood anyways. But I will find the photos of when it was freshly restored.

Here is a few more, taken this morning....

Rick here is some porch and front steps I restored in May '07 using the wtw honey gold stain. It was part of a total exterior house paint job - so it's not like this is an exclusive deck resto customer - if it was I would feel real bad. The original porch boards were original fir with like half a dozen coats of porch paint. I concocted a recipe of sulfuric acid and surfactant along with a coupld hours of continual application/dwell. I finally used high pressure to knock it off - a light misting of sodium bicarbonate to neutralize any acid leftover and loads of rinsing. Because it was 6+ coats of paint - and I used high pressure. I ended up not sanding the entire porch - but actually using a porter cable grinder. The boards were beautiful when I was done. The front steps and treads however were totally beyond repair - so the homeowner had them totally replaced. So early June - he asked me if I would coat the treads. They weren't nailed down more than 2 days fresh from the lumberyard and totally kiln dried - when I splased some woodtux on them - you be the judge..... BTW this was sept '06 formula and the porch has a roof - so no direct weathering to boot!

I don't know how to answer you, other than to say - if you believe late year '07 product with no curing issues is the same as '08 product. Then yes there is problem. I have some late year '06 product that precedes the drying problems - with some awful looking results. I did a beautiful deck in sept/oct of '07 - and when I went back there 6 weeks later to do some interior painting for the homeowner - the deck wasn't beading water at all. Claims are that wtw 'sheets' water instead - I was skeptical - but had no real proof otherwise, so I shut up. I now believe all good products should 'bead' water - and this 'sheeting' is just hocus pocus for a coatings failure. Timberoil 'sheets' water as well - like 8 months after application and oils have been washed out - something you would expect. Personally I think I am in a better position than most - as I sanded every square inch of decks after restoration - something lots of contractors don't do - I still did out of habit. And the product reacts totally different - absorbs totally different, and hopefully allows me to clean up the surface and 'maintain' the finish without re-stripping. And other comments I heard, Rick, if the deck wasn't dark - other customers talked about it being faded. If I want a deck stain that fades tremendously - I only need to pay $20/gallon for it. That stain solved lots of problems - like staining decks a foot off the ground for starters - or early year moisture. I also want the technology for 'maintenance' customers - where I can mop on a light cleansing solution - hose off - and then apply a coat without having to make a second trip. I am sure of the quality of the competitors here, but that wet technology was beginning to make my life easy - I'll miss it.

I am having the same problems Rick. But isn't Mahogany like ipe, in that it's a yearly strip anyways?

Sometimes if you also have the house wash job - you can get away with blowing out the leaves with a pressure washer - but only if they have a really really natural landscape, one in which all that muck will look like it belongs. But if they have anything resembling a manicured lawn and/or shrubs and flower beds - you have to hand scoop. Some guys have some customers scheduled for twice a year - and I think they get away with blowing out the leaves with air.

Just replace the bad boards now - and come back in the spring - tell her the aging process on the new boards will be sublime come spring time for color matching and leaching of tannins and sugars. And do as Jim suggests - make sure the gaps between the boards are open - I've been known to run a circular saw set at the correct depths to open the gaps. This will allow the moisture to escape the decking - and halt any rotting that's going on. Other than that - they've let the deck go this long - what's another winter?

I like this line from the list: (Note: Vinyl Sided Homes go for as little as $39.95) LOL

I know when I first started pricing jobs and researching the internet, that was the list I went by. We have to remember lots of us lowballed in the beginning more from ignorance than anything else.

Chris - this guy saw my truck lettering and asked about my gutter cleaning services. I told him my minimum is $150 for cleaning them out by hand. He told me his company comes out twice a year for $100 for the year! And he asked me if I could beat that - and I told him not in this lifetime! The company to boot has a big advertizing in the newspapers - but they also install gutters and the gutter caps as well. I always wondered if they do high pressure sales, if that was how they make back their money. How can a company send out a couple of guys - pay for all that 'windshield' time, pay for gas, set up ladders and clean out gutters twice a year for a measly $100?

Dane - you're a good guy - you just got to put on your a$$hole hat when you walk into dealerships. The last time I walked into one - I hardly escaped with my life! I am done being civil to those guys!

Don't up your offer!!!!!!! Wait 3 weeks and offer $3,200 - deal from a position of power! The longer that thing sits in the lot - the more of a liability it is for them. The longer they wait before selling it to you - the more you drop your offer! That is what scares them into making a deal!

I know a guy that got a beautiful box truck for $3,330. Was only like 4 yrs old low mileage, 3500. The smallest box truck they have out there, but still. He told me he is really good to people but dealerships - he really treats them like crap. He goes in makes a really really low offer, they balk, he walks - comes in a month later and tells 'em that he noticed they still haven't moved it, and offers an even lower price. I'd do the same - just walk, wait a couple of weeks - keep driving them down! Cars are like computers a perfectly good never used 486 sitting in a backroom of some computer shop is only good for boat anchoring. These guys gotta move the stuff constantly - even if they don't make a profit - only to recoup some of the money, before the cars are totally worthless.