plainpainter

Once you get your testing in - I will test further on my own decks - so don't worry about it. I will pick a customer who isn't a big spender to try something new on. You see middle of the road customers are great sometimes - alot of times they think all contractors are the same. So I don't feel guilty experimenting on their stuff - they don't think it will last long anyways. It's the big spending/high profile customer that you can't experiment with.

Hey I got another test after all this testing is done. If leaving an acid w/out rinsing is the way to go. How about a system where you wait enough time for neutralization to happen - and then slop on WTW - that would dive into the wood and thus force out any remnant acid/salt along with all the excess water. Now wouldn't that turn out to be a real efficient way of doing decks. Strip -> Rinse -> Brighten -> No Rinse, straight to application. God - you would be able to double your production.

I can't wait to see the results - hopefully there will be enough meaningful data. Just curious - do you just mix the crystals into water without any surfactant? I am use to products like Flood's Deckswood, which is an oxalic/Deck Cleaner - and I guess Russell's product is along the same lines - in the way of extra cleansing agents/surfactants. I wonder who else just uses straight acid crystals vs. an acid/surfactant package? Who knows maybe citric w/out soap and left on the deck is the best prep of all - and certainly would be the least time consuming - no rinsing, and cheaper - no proprietary blend to mix up. Yeah this will be a cool three way test.

Rick - the citric is the control, that's what you are use to using - use the citric first like you would normally do - then allow the same concentration of oxalic for the same amount of time - record all the times - and post pictures of what eveything looks like after neutralizing. But yeah - rinse - be sure to rinse. this will also be a test for you as whether to rinse or not from now on. Although don't rinse for all your customer decks for one season - wait til you see the results on your own deck before changing your own methods - but the majoritiy of us here like to rinse.

Happy Birthday - so where can I send the "Over-the-Hill" balloons?

Rick - sorry to respond so latel, I had no idea this thread would cause such a commotion. But I would prefer it if you rinsed your acids after you let them dwell for a while - I'd say 15 or so minutes - howeve long you feel when the woods have brightedned to your satisifaction - but however long you allow the citric - allow the oxalic the same amount of time as well. I say this because once the acids gets on the wood it will react with the residual stripper/percarb/alkaline to form salts - and you should remove the majority of those salts - they can react with the finish as well. Shane - I was once using oxalic acid to clean up some teak wood on a boat. What I noticed is that all this mildew that was all over this fiberglass boat surface was being washed away after being treated with the oxalic acid - so I have thought from that time on that oxalic is a decent mildew killer. But if you are having problems - why not after you strip/bleach - instead of following with oxalic - use bleach-stop - it is something like sodium thiosulfate - it is meant to neutralise bleach - and being an acid will also brighten and turn any remaining alkaline into salts - this I think would make your prep bulletproof - and nobody would be able critisize you for using bleach. Here is a link Bleach-Stop (Sodium Thiosulfate) - 3 lbs.

Rod - if you are entertaining the thought of offering a twice a year conditioning of ipe decks. Does this imply you would go over to a parafinnic stain instead of curing stain?

Hey Rick - I got a funny suggestion - try neutralizing one chair with citric and the other with oxalic - since they are separate pieces of furniture - you won't be able to tell the difference in tones. Juggling 3 different ingredients will be tough to keep track of. Why not just use mostly citric and a little oxalic - and then increase the oxalic a little at a time until you get the results you want. And then have a separate solution of citric and phosphoric - and do the same thing. Putting all 3 at the same time this early in the game will have your head spinning in confusion.

yeah wait for warmer weather - we can wait - clean and stain on a day that you would wait for if this was a customers deck. Why mess with a good experiment - I'm patient. Anyways - in the future if you like the results - you can buy oxalic at thechemistrystore.com for far cheaper money. I thought I saw one of those percarb pouches for cleaning wood decks from Wolman's at Ace - $20! Can you believe that? Go the next aisle over and you can purchase a tub of oxi-clean and TSP and still have money left over for a candy bar. And clean ten times as many decks!

Ok Rod - in a very naive way of thinking, my theory was that since it was proposed that oxalic acid 'opens' up woods more, and the qualifier for this - is that you get a worse spread rate, i.e. you are using more material. My initial thoughts were that more material is getting soaked per unit area of decking. My next thought was perhaps if this is true, the stain may be better anchored - not by any chemical adhesive property - but by more of mechanical adhesive property. Now since a 'film' forming stain, leaves a coating with a hard surface tension - they may benefit more than a parafinnic stain - but at least Rick is willing to try - or heck - now there is more room for penetrating stain as well - so maybe it's life will endure as well. That's my theory - without getting too technical or trying to overthink all the variables involved - a simple experiment should either support or contradict my basic assumption that if you are getting 'worse' spread rates perhaps you are building a more durable coating. That's all.

In regards to your last post, Rod - James was right, the two acids aren't being dissolved into the same solution - there will be seperate solutions to go on seperate areas of the deck, well now seperate parts of the railings. In regards to your second to last post - I am no longer entertaining anymore discussion in this subject. I had an idea - it may be wrong or right - it's just an idea with a little logic behind it, at this point I would rather not imitate the ancient greeks in trying to guess how many teeth a horse has by using logic - I'd rather just go up to the silly animal and count. In other words let's stop discussing - do the experiment and see what happens. Afterall that is the definition of science - validating theory through experimentation. My theory doesn't have to be Right - it just has to seem plausible enough to try a little experiment. Without getting too technical about the different porosity patterns of soft vs. hard woods. The fact of the matter is that Russell talks about this on his site about oxalic bleaching more of the compounds away - perhaps oxalic may not actually damage the cellulose walls like UV does - and leave a nice honeycomb structure for stain to enter and form an anchor - or maybe it won't. At this point let's just see what the results of a small experiment are.

Rick - I definitely don't want you to put your marriage at risk! LOL. I think the top railing is a geat proxy for what will happen in general, as well as the fascia board. But I don't know about equal amounts of stain - if anything saturate both sections like you would normally do , and perhaps keep track if there is a difference in the amounts that the wood accepts. Although this may be hard to do, since there is so little area to begin with. Maybe a pre-measured coffee can of stain - and see how many linear feet you get between the two different sections on the railing? Actually I think that would be a great experiment. But yeah definitely do the decking like you would normally do - but take pics after brightening to see if there is a visual difference in brightening between the acids. And how the railings look after staining if the difference is still there - and of course, how well do each hold up. If you think about it - if you just look at a railing - which is basically a two dimensional surface - if there is a difference, perhaps just treating the railing will give a more obvious indication vs. two larger areas. Heck auto body painters can feather two slightly different shades so well on a car I can never tell where a repair was done. But a linear railing is just a line that would transition instantly from citric to oxalic - and would be much easier to repair later on if there is a great difference.

Ok - I understand now - I do the same thing with pressure treated - but that's for first time deck jobs. Once a deck has gone through several 'conditionings' - it is no longer a new deck, but a deck being perpetually restored and maintained. I am more interested in a deck that has already gone through several cycles - not to mention, once you remove the greyed out wood fibers from either percarbs, bleach, etc. You are now down to a 'newer' level of the wood. Kind of like if you sanded a hardwood floor of it's topmost layer of wood - you are back to a fresher piece of wood. So at that point - what can be done to improve stain durability? Sure I can agree that oxalic may 'burn' more of the sugars out of the wood. But that may be what is needed for better life of deck stains. What's the difference if you let ipe say age naturally? Aren't you allowing nature to 'naturally' weather out the sugars and tannins from the top few mils of the wood anyways? But now this 'naturally' aged wood has 'opened' up. But this wood that is now 'opened' up is now oxidized and greyed out wood fibers incapable of holding a deck stain. So now you have to remove that layer of 'dead' greyed wood - and you are back to a layer of fresher wood stocked with natural tannins and sugars. So you are back to square one. Why not 'bleach' out the sugars a little from the top few mils with additional strength acid - and then apply a stain. Because at least now - the wood has 'opened' up it's pores - and the wood is still intact, undamaged by a year of weather and UV degradation - ready to accept more stain and form a stronger mechanical bond that is anchored deeper into the wood. Anyways - theories aside - science is crap unless someone goes to the 'lab' and tests the theory out. So I am looking forward to Rick's outcomes.

Beth - I am confused - since you agreed with Jim - you understood what he meant, what did he mean by - its better to let the wood sit?

Not to mention, Jim, if you think it's better to let a deck 'sit'. Aren't you implying you are sealing over greyed wood? What do you do to remove grey wood fibers and neutralise the wood?

Jim - correct me if I am wrong - but if Rick said previously that the Readyseal will hide any differences left by some residual ATO - isn't the product more than capable of covering up any differences between two sides neutralized with different acids?

That sounds great Rick - take lots of before and after photos - and also see if the wood looks lighter after being neutralised with the oxalic vs. citric. I am really interested how things will turn out. I wish I had an ipe deck to care for.

Well for starters - I think this mostly has to do with new Ipe decks - mostly because I think Ipe is relatively new on the market place - so most of it is new. Perhaps older decks with lots of wear won't have these problems. And then what products are you familiar with using, Paul? Perhaps use Russel's citric product at recommended dilution and Bob's oxalic product as well - and perhaps both products again at half dose. So four sections for testing?

Rick - that's exactly what I am saying. Understand - I have no real world experience on this - I don't know first hand. But re-read the posts - Russell has stated this in writing at least half a dozen times in the last few weeks, along with Beth and Rod intimating this as well. Again I have no proof of this - just repeating what I have read on these boards. Oxalic in the system is no good to our kidneys - but that isn't the selling point for citric acid neutralizing on these boards.

It's my believe Kevin - that you can't charge less than $75/man-hour in any of the contracting trades - to me that's lowbucks for an above board company. I compete with guys that charge $25/hr plus materials - but after being here for a year - I am much more focused on setting myself apart from those folks. But for now I am surviving on $45/hr. Believe it or not guys who charge $50/hr around these parts are considered 'painters for the stars' and other wealthy estates. That's why I am trying to get more into pressure washing - keep making money even on the rainy days. Ha - there's another good one - I don't get paid for rainy weather so my $45/hr is more like $30/hr - since New England weather seems to wreck 1/3 of the days - god it's pathetic. So if I have a helper - my gross over a period of several months during 'the good parts of the year' i.e. 7 out of 12 - is $60/hr total!!!! That's running a company and managing two workers, one being myself - yikes!

Kevin - you ain't gonna get rich in the house painting business - I was more thinking $40 per hr. plus a grand in materials - and trust me, it's hard getting those prices! I have upped my services to $45/hr. I can't run a contracting business on any less. Even though my customers see that and start thinking immediately that I am making a $90,000 salary and they only make $30/hr. First off - why do customes ego always come into this? They don't own and operate a business - all they do is show up for a job - not that is belittling them - but it's true, I should make more for running a business. But when you factor all my overhead, insurance, comp, investment in ladders, equipment, storage fees, gas costs, vehicle repairs - all comes out of that $45 man hour - I don't end up making a whole lot. And everytime I have helpers - all it ever seems I ever do is create a 'job' for the commonwealth - I don't see any profits, just more aggravation. And nobody is helping out the small business owner in this country

Ken - I thought your Rad product was a citric blend, please explain what you mean. Rick - I am only bringing this up, because some people are selling citric neutralizing because you get better spread rates - this I assume because they are implying you aren't removing as much extractives and leaving less room for stain. But I can't really comment from experience - as I am limited to only working with pressure treated decks with stains and on occasion fir decks with either solid latex stain or porch and floor enamels. Beth - I am bringing this up, because supposedly from what I hear you can only expect 1 year durability even from Woodtux. If oxalic can free up some more room and possibly get 2 years on Ipe - this is something to be explored. Don't you think? Have you done decks side by side with different acids and seen the outcomes so drastic as to only choose citric or citric blend over oxalic? I mean why would I spend lots of money for citric based acids if I can get oxalic cheap. Or if I can get better durability by 'burning' the ipe a little more - and heck what Rick says has lots of truth anyways - in that you couldn't hurt Ipe that much even if you tried, so what's the harm by using a stonger acid that is far cheaper, may give better results on harder woods? I can tend to agree that maybe it poses more of a work hazard to the person applying it - that may be a real concern and reason why to go citric instead.

I understand Barry about the mildew coming back after a year. But if you don't upsell - what do you do to combat lowballers? Offer a tiered service, and show your customers pics of homes one and two years later with and without the additional service. And sell 'em value - but heck some customers want to clean the house for a quick sale or something. This is much different than painting - where you price a scrape and paint job for $5,000 that lasts not much more than 6 months - something so expensive as painting - you are screwing your customer over by offering a lower tiered service. Basically their is a 'floor' that you can't go below. If I paint your home for $10,000 - and it goes a good 7 years before it starts showing it's age - and the competition charged $5,000 and it only lasts 7 months - that is abysmal failure - even though both contractors estimated fairly for their labor and materials plus markup. Having mildew coming back in 12 months isn't so catastrophic - especially at the much lower prices for a pressure washing that only took 2-3 hours. Charging a customer $5,000 for 100 hours of labor plus materials for a home that really requires a much better prep job that will take 200 man-hours instead @ $10,000 - is just criminal. I would never cheat a customer by offering lower quality jobs - even if it is fairly priced - it just doesn't make any business sense. Do it right and pay $10,000 for 7-8 years or do it wrong and charge $5,000 and have failure in as little as a year.

Barry - do what I do, make up a tiered system, come up with pricing - the whole nine yards - but then don't offer the lowest tier. I do it. I give estimates for different services - basically they have 'greyed' out check boxes besides them. In other words customers that go with me, are picking a higher tiered service. And it gives them a better comparison to the competition. If I give three different price levels for house painting - with a basic scrape, spot prime, one coat of house paint - as the lowest estimate, say for example $5,700 - and then all the way at the top of the list I give a deluxe house package for $11,340. Then when they compare other estimates I tell 'em that so and so competition does the bottom job - and the reason they went with me was that they wanted a better job. The competition may off - let's say $5,900. But my customer already know that would be comparing apples to oranges. And that I am competitively priced at $5,700. It's just I don't offer that lower tier service for reasons you explained - it comes off as half a##ed. That kind of paint job has loads of paint failures in as little as one year in my climate - so I tell 'em I don't offer the service - but if I did, it would be at that low price. So now you really sold the customer value - because you already convinced them your job is a better job, and if they go with the competition - they aren't getting the same quality for less money. But in regards to pressure washing - I am all for different tiered services, it's like going to a car wash where there is everything from the 'basic' package to the all out balls to the walls super duper package. Most people who walk by won't notice if you made the gutters super clean or not. They will just see a nice clean home - it's just a picky customer who will look with binoculars - and you already took care of that with a carefully worded contract. Heck give 'em discounts off of the tiered packages once in a while - it will make 'em feel like they are getting more value. Variety is the spice of life. Pressure washing is very different from painting - if a customer pays $4,000 for a paint job - that is money waisted - and is unethical for an honest painting contractor to offer such a minimal job - because it will not accomplish anything in the ways of longevity. The customer would be better off doing nothing and using that $4,000 for something else. Minimally prepped exterior paint jobs that run 4 to 5 grand accomplish little else other than making a contractor looking bad - because he did a 'crappy' job - even though he did honestly charge for labor and materials - and it does nothing in the ways of making the paint job endure the elements - in this arena, painting, you truly have to go high end - but pressure washing I don't think you need to.

But Beth - the problems with adherence with stains and woods like Ipe - is the denseness of the extractives in the wood. If you free up some space to allow stain to penetrate - then you increased the stains effectiveness in it's ability to stick. I ain't talking running a red river from a deck - but perhaps well timed dwelling of oxalic acid - where as woods like cedar or fir, oxalic may be too harsh - but for ipe it would be more appropriate. Heck someone should do this as an experiment - half an ipe deck neutralised with a citric acid and the other half with oxalic - and see if there is an improvement in durability.