plainpainter

I think if you properly strip, neutralize,defurr - and then put on a clear sealant as per customers request - then I don't think that constitutes as shoddy work. If I had a wife - and their was a mortgage payment coming up - and not to mention she was expecting a really really nice anniversary present - I'd have taken the 11k job and given them their clear. Not to mention - If I was married, with my luck - she turned down some lawyer or Doctor to be with me - but in return would expect me to really bring home the bacon. F - the reputation crap, life is too short - I would have done the job.

I like that spf stuff - I had this customer who was being a total ***** - evidently It was unprofessional of me to assume that a house painting contract didn't include a free deck job as well. Homeowners - gotta love 'em. Anyways - I spread on that spf **** on her fir deck - hope she loves it, that Cee U Next Tuesday. Anyone else have revenge products they like to share?

So here are some pics of a woodtux job I did - the wood had heavy applications of CWF - which I stripped with my own stripper that I make. Then neutralised with 1 part floods Deckswood and 4 parts water. Then rinsed a million times. I did this on a rainy day - so the decking part probably didn't get as stripped as well as I liked - I did two applications of stripper - I think the decking had a solid oil black stain on it. After when It dried a few days later- I went around and did some sanding mostly the decking with 40 grit on my really powerful portercable sander. I read on the sikkens website that they want you to sand the decking with 60 or 80 grit after a deck has been cleaned - and I am starting to think this is a really good idea. Everything was hand brushed with a 2-1/2 purdy china bristle. The stain is very shiny!

just remember - that decking was Black!

Yeah - at first I thought because it rained that my stripper got diluted. But remember I had also sanded the entrance porch and put down a coat of that grey oil based porch and floor paint and noticed that when some paint flaked off - that there was a solid coating of black solid oil stain. After the deck dried a few days later I went over that back decking about 6 times with my portercable sander with 40 grit - and it could barely make a dent in it. I am including another pic, you can see the steps and how I managed to sand some of it off - but that's where I stopped, it was just too deep into the wood.

Here are some of the rear deck. This is Warm Honey Gold btw.

some more

Rick, quick question - when you say you won't apply solid stain to untreated exterior wood, what do you mean by that? In the painting world - I routinely apply solid oil stain to shakes and clapboards - it is a self-priming product. I guess I will prime if it's a light color to lock in tannin bleed. I understand about turning down work if it will affect your reputation - but If I was a readyseal user, I would have been tempted to have used their clear product - and quality products that have a 'clear' sealer typically aren't true clears anyways - at least my clear sealer of choice has trans-oxide pigments and doesn't go grey after just one year. I guess business is real good if you turned that job down.

If it was easy - everybody would be doing it - right? I got a 10k roof job coming up next week - not cleaning, I mean ripping and putting up architectural. I do like 1 or 2 roofs a year - and never have to worry about homeowners doing that - god I love the money on roofing.

Rick, you're obviously spoiled - in the painting world, my customers tell me what paint they want, usually Ben Moore. I have some customers that ask me what they think is best. But in the end - if the customer wants it - I give it to them. I find my blood pressure goes up if I try to fight those wars - and even if everything goes right - the customer will always have something to complain about if you didn't use the products they chose. As about turning down an 11 grand job - that's just foolish - I go where the money is. And last I heard there isn't a squad of deck sealing police going around making sure your deck sealants last and last. In fact I have talked to customers who were on the receiving end of a patriarchal contractor who wouldn't do what they wanted - and they thought it was highly annoying. Customers want certain control. Heck if you are that uncomfortable - make 'em sign something saying they went against your advice. In the end we're contractors - and the customer should be able to choose - even is they choose stupidly - just let 'em know you think it's stupid and make 'em sign something. And I hardly doubt the outcome of applying clear deck sealer to a managed property will have any effect on your reputation. It's homeowners I think that have the loose lips.

When I said - let the customer vote for the product they want - I meant within a reasonable universe of quality products. I use Muralo's lumberjacket deck stain, California Storm stains, Cabot's, just tried woodtux, etc. Now if a customer is sold on Sikkens Cetol SRD - why not just give 'em that product - it's not like it's behr. Or say if they want penofin. I am not saying penofin is as good as woodtux - but I know contractors who use only penofin products with good results. I have no experience with it - but again it ain't behr. And about warranties - I don't get involved with warranties. I have clients that will got the independent and choose a certain color from say cabots deck stain - again a fine product, maybe no where near woodtux - but whatever - it ain't behr, so I would just give 'em that - not to mention I don't want to do so much extra work with a customer as to shade they want if I made a substitution. If I apply Cabot's Cedar - and they don't like it - I don't even listen - I just ask for the check. Try doing that if you made a substitution of products and they blame you for not getting the color right. If you sell customers on yearly maintenance - any of these products will work fine. For customers who know your 'little' secret of deck coatings that last 2 and 3 years with products like woodtux - charge a premium, even though the cost is no different to you between woodtux or sikkens.

These are some points that manufactureres consider when putting together their cleaning products - so if you want to know what is doing what - read this: CLEANING COMOUNDS AND THEIR FUNCTIONS Sequestering — ability to prevent deposition of mineral salts on surfaces being cleaned. Wetting — ability of compound to lower surface tension of water and increase ability of ater to penetrate soil. Emulsifying, suspending — ability to emulsify fat. Dissolving — ability of compound to speed the transfer of solids into solution. Saponifying power — ability of compound to saponify fats, i.e. turn them into soaps. Peptizing power — ability to attack and disperse protein. Dispersion — the power to disperse and flocculate so that mineral films are not redeposited. Rinsing power — ability of compound to separate from cleaned surface when water is flushed over surface. CLEANING COMPOUNDS ARE GROUPED INTO THE FOLLOWING CLASSES: Class Major Function Basic Alkalies Soil displacement -- emulsifying, saponifying, peptizing. Complex Phosphates Soil displacement by emulsifying and peptizing. Dispersion of soil, water, softening, prevention of soil redeposition. Surfactants Wetting and penetrating of soils, dispersion of soil and prevention of soil redeposition. Chelating Compounds Water softening, mineral deposit control. Soil displacement by peptizing, prevention of redeposition. Acid Cleaners Mineral deposit control, water softening. None of the above compounds can meet all the requirements of a good cleaning agent. However, when properly blended, these compounds can be formulated to incorporate the necessary properties into one product. Some of the more basic formulations are: Alkaline Cleaners 1. Basic Alkalies — Include caustic soda, soda ash, trisodium phosphate, sodium metasilicate. 2. Caustic Soda — High in germicidal and dissolving action. Lacks deflocculating and emulsifying power. Objectionable due to hand burning. Most corrosive alkali on metals. 3. Soda Ash — Once the principle component of washing powers. Cheapest form of alkali. Poor water softener. Only fair deflocculating and emulsification properties. Good buffer. When used in hard water, calcium carbonate is precipitated causing hard water spotting. This may be prevented when soda ash is used in conjunction with higher phosphates to sequester water hardness. 4. Trisodium Phosphate -- Readily soluble, excellent deflocculant and emulsifier. Only fair water softener due to flocculent character of Calcium and Magnesium phosphates formed -- relatively corrosive on tin unless sodium metasilicate is present. 5. Sodium Metasilicate -- High active alkalinity and emulsifying properties. Fair water softener, noncorrosive. Protects metals against corrosion by other alkalies. Very effective in holding soil in suspension. Complex Phosphates Excellent cleaning components and first in respect to water softening. Also very effective in emulsification, dispersion, protein peptizing and prevention of soil redeposition. 1. Pyrophosphate -- Most widely used, cheapest, lacks calcium sequestering power. Stable alkaline conditions, slow to dissolve. 2. Tripolyphosphate -- Superior to pyrophosphate in calcium & sequestering power. Readily soluble. 3. Tetraphosphate -- Unstable in high temperature solutions. 4. Hexa Methophosphate -- Most effective sequestering agent when calcium is considered. Most costly. Lacks sequestering power on calcium when magnesium hardness is present. Unstable under high temperatures or alkaline conditions. Wetting Agents Soluble in cold water, unaffected by water hardness. Permits better rinsing in hard water. Effective over a wide range of pH. Permits use of alkaline and acid detergents. When added to these cleaners, wetting agents improve the wetting and penetrating properties of the product. When in low concentrations of 0.15%, they reduce surface tension to half the original value. Increased concentrations fail to lower surface tension materially beyond this point so that amounts of wetting agents used in cleaners are usually small. Three types of wetting agents are: 1. Anionic wetting — Most common are the sulfated alcohols and alkyl aryl sulfonates. 2. Nonionic — Complex organic chemicals fairly new to market. Liquid compounds containing no water. Compatible with anionic and cationic materials. 3. Cationic — Best known are the quaternary ammonium compounds. These are often used as germicides rather than cleaners. In the wetting agent family, they are actually poor wetters. Chelating Compounds -- organic sequestering agents. Prevention of water hardness precipitation normally performed by polyphosphates. However, chelating compounds are stable to heat. 1. Sodium salts of ethylene diamine tetra acetic acid 2. Other organic acid salts These agents vary considerably in their ability to sequester heavy metals, such as calcium magnesium and iron. Chlorine Reacts strongly with proteins and markedly increases effectiveness of alkaline cleaners. Use of 50-200 ppm of chlorine increases peptizing ability of alkaline cleaners. Important since the elimination of protein films also eliminates the binding sites for the build up of mineral deposits. Commonly used chlorine components: 1. Chlorinated trisodium phosphate 2. Hypochlorites 3. Chloroisocyanuric Acid Cleaners Are very effective in cleaning surfaces on high temperature heat exchange equipment. A wide choice of products are available. These products are usually a blend of organic acids, inorganic acids or acid salts usually with a wetting agent. To be effective, an acid detergent should produce a pH of 2.5 or less in final use solution. It should work well in hard or soft water and show a minimum of corrosion on metals. It is sometimes recommended that such a detergent be used once a month. In commercial dishwashing machines to assist in the removal of any build up of mineral deposits. However routine use of an acid detergent in dishwashing machines is not recommended. Cleaning Compounds - Application COMPOUND SELECTION The physical state of the cleaning agent must be considered so as to be compatible with the surface to be cleaned. Liquid — more hazardous to handle but provides better concentration control. Powdered — frequently overused. When cleaning is done by hand, do not use strong acids or alkalies. Magnesium, calcium, iron, and manganese salts will precipitate more readily from alkaline solution than acid solution. Therefore, the conditioning of rinse water with acid to a pH of 6.8 or less will minimize the deposition of mineral salts on cleaned surfaces. CLEANING COMPOUNDS CONCENTRATION Concentration required usually based on concentration of active alkalinity (or active acidity) required for specific cleaning task. There exists a minimum concentration requirement for effective cleaning. Increasing the concentration will increase cleaning efficiency but at a decreasing rate. Thus, a maximum concentration exists for any practical improvement in cleaning. EXTERNAL ENERGY FACTORS The cleaning process can be improved by increasing external application of energy. This can be accomplished by increasing temperature or force applied. The effect of time is also considered an external force. Increased Temperature Decreases bond strength between soil and surface. Decreases viscosity of solution and increases turbulence. Increases solubility of soluble materials. Increases chemical reaction rates. For any food soil, the minimum effective temperature will be about 5°F higher than the melting point of fat. The maximum temperature will depend on the temperature at which the protein in the system is denatured. Time All other factors of cleaning being constant, cleaning can be improved utilizing longer times. However, as in the case of cleaning agent concentration, increasing the time for cleaning beyond a certain point provides little additional increase in effectiveness. Force "Elbow grease" or fluid flow for CIP systems (5 ft/sec or more)

I'm a painter that does pressure washing and deck staining - it's just more services to add to what you do. Some people believe in specializing some people believe in generalizing. If I painted 100% of the time, I'd run into too many customers that just want it cheap - I don't have enough customers to keep me above water - so I pressure wash and deck stain. I also reside homes - be it clapboard or shakes and I do roofing too.

The thing about linseed oil being food for mildew - I don't know, I've seen mildew grow fine on a totally synthetic alkyd coating - and it seems to like My California 2010 white latex trim paint as well - I think mildew grows on anything. But the one place I really don't see it growing on is my tung/linseed oil treated deck. Not to mention linseed oil lightens right up in the presence of sunlight - sorry to hijack. I think in the end when it comes to deck coatings - I'd let your customer base vote what they want. I think however you find your customers - word of mouth - advertising - creative sales. You'll find that there will be a histogram, like the one at the top of this very page - where some like it pretty, some like it ok but really want it to last, and so forth. And then give 'em what they want. And people who call back after 18 months and expect you to do it for free and fight their war against the manufacturer - I suggest you laugh in their face for being such an imbecile. At least that's what I do. Honestly - the nerve of some people

I agree with Jon Fife about offering too much information. I've read some pretty pollyanish dribble on this forum about educating the client and what not. I did exactly exactly the same to a potential house painting customer up the street from me - well she gave the job to somebody else, probably handed the estimate over to him, and gave her a lower price - and then proceeded to strip the house nearly entirely just like I said I would. But then he primed all this beautiful cedar siding clapboard with Cover-Stain oil primer. Sure a great interior oil product - but cheesy exterior product in my opinion. I gave all the info to the client - in the end she took the guy that told her what she wanted to hear. Tell the customer it will be great, provide a great service, make a balance between quality and estimate price to maintain a loyal customer base. If sikkens looks pretty - and the client knows about sikkens - give 'em sikkens, f 'em. Customers have no idea that brand reputation is often built upon prior quality products that no longer exist due to VOC laws - customers don't know about VOC laws. You tell 'em about quality degradation - they'll turn to the contractor that will tell them what they want to hear. I've seen it too many times.

What's so bad about linseed oil, I think linseed oil is the single most best ingredient in the coatings industry. All my favorite oil based products contain linseed oil - I drench wood with linseed oil to revive it.

Ken - I voted for a beautiful deck with yearly maintenance. Let me explain why - to me most customers won't remember you for the great quality work that lasted forever - they'll remember you for spilling some deck stain on their bricks or what not. I just don't think customers care about quality that much - if they did, why are there so many hack contractors to this day! People should have learned by now. My opinion is that if you have long time clients - they should be educated 100% of everything - let them decide what they want. Tell 'em the more beautiful finish will only last a year and will need to be torn down the next and redone - and the better finish will last longer - but won't look as nice. For clients I don't really know - I tell 'em because of the elements, mother nature, blah, blah - a deck needs to be done every year if it's in sun - and every 18 months if it's in total shade. And then give 'em the prettiest product. BTW - what do you think is the prettiest product - I'd like to use it. Oh - I just did some deck staining with woodtux - I like the product very much - I thought it was extremely similar to Muralo's lumberjacket stain that is a staple of mine, only a tad bit darker - but not what I would cosider to be semi-transparent, it's still what I would call a transparent stain, tinted perhaps - but def. transparent. Semi-transparent is more like interior woodstain finishes - that' what I consider semi. But definitely something I will add to my arsenal. Unlike others on here - I think where this product will shine is on decks - that I have absolutely no luck on trying to stain them on a cloudy or cool day - some of my decks are always as hot as roofs for some reason - and I can never apply stain under ideal conditions, so I think I with this product I can hose down the deck and cool it off tremendously allowing me to stain at an appropriate temperature. -Dan

Aren't there drawbacks to these super machines, like not being able to easily find hose that can put up with the pressure? Re-enacting some scene from a John Belushi movie - holding on to dear life while the hose does it's snake dance? Is there any drawback at all, when say doing wood decks, siding, perhaps they just eat up fuel like the dickens - I was thinking of getting the 4.0 gallon too - but if bigger is truly better, then I should save and go for the 8.0 gallon, right?

Why not get the 8.0 gallon one from pressuretek, if more is better?

So I ordered a 5 gallon pail of Woodtux this morning and asked Russell what steps should I take to apply the stain - as I heard from people online that it is hard to work with. He asked me what stains I am use to - so I told him Cabot stains and California Storm Stains. He then told me there's no problem - that I shouldn't worry about it. I then asked him what's all the commotion about - he then replied that some guys don't like it when they apply stain to the railings, and drops make it onto the wood and then when they go do the deck part - those drops flash. My Jaw dropped down to the ground - apparently it's real easy to use paraffinic non-drying oil stains, I wouldn't know because I have never used them. But I am shocked that so many professionals think working with drying stains is such an issue. And now I understand this whole fim-forming issue as well, guys who are use to products like phenoseal and readyseal - are from a totally different universe. They are so use to products that just drench into the wood like it was mineral oil - that any product that I would use such as Cabot's, California Storm Stains, Sikkens, etc would be from their perspective film-forming stains. This is absolutely not true! And if Woodtux is anything like those stains - it's not a film-forming stain by any definition. Just because there is some cured product that lays at the surface. For those that don't know what a film-former is: It's anything like the ol' two part Sikkens, deck and deckbase that makes a thick polyurethane coating on the wood - that peals. Or any product like a spar varnish -heck if you thinned down spar varnish 1:1 with spirits - it would no longer be a film forming product in my book. So please stop the threads accusing many products of being film-forming, I'd rather not read all the rhetoric. If it ain't a thick poly like coating like Sikkens Deck & DeckBase - then it ain't a film forming stain. A drying stain perhaps, but film-forming no.

I just received my first shipment of woodtux yesterday - and it gives a list of acceptable methods of applying the sealer - one of them is HVLP, but no mention of airless. Now when I use to spray cars - filling a quart canister is no big deal - but to spray a deck? Sorry to hijack thread - but can you go airless with woodtux?

I use TriSodium Phosphate most of the time with house washing and decks - I use the sodium metasilicate with my stripper formula.

James - would you consider ABR on newer decks, or it's not necessary?

I started out rolling on stain - but found I didn't like the procedure. I also think the method of application can have results of longevity. So right now I roll on stain on two boards, and go back and back brush by hand. What kind of pads are you guys talking about? I find with the brush it makes the sides of the boards along the cracks get a little better uniform finish without looking like dribbles over the side. What is the standard procedure of application? Back to rolling - I found that with more traditional stains, it didn't penetrate as well, but I hate brushing.

Need to give lady a quick estimate to strip, brighten and seal this little porch - what do you guys think this job is worth? There's an old failing stain that didn't clean up with bleach/tsp. So it probably from reading these posts looks like a job for HD80 at half strength. Thanks