Paul B.

Can't pay salary to non-skilled laborer - must pay hourly and OT. As I said, check out the H2B Program requirements.... You need to apply between 90-120 days prior to expected hire date, in addition to meeting other requirements. If you apply NOW, you MAY have access by 1st of May. They can expedite this for an extra $1000. Check out their website: http://uscis.gov/graphics/services/...rd.htm#anchorH2

Rob, I wasn't trying to imply you were hiring illegals, my questions were directed at business planning and strategy. You answered 3 (1,4 and 5) of my questions (kinda) but not the other two (2 and 3). I'm confused on what you actually mean with your statement: "I have a friend who owns a fairly large landscaping company, he hires both part and full time workers, he will pass some of his overflow of help, I will hire them full time as regular employees... I will pay a agency $10.00 an hour flat rate, then they take care of wk comp, taxes, housing etc.. I believe they actually pay them about $6 an hour...that way, I dont have the headaches as with regular employees,..." Are you hiring them as regular employees or as temporaries? Are you aware that the laws are tightening? You may want to check if your CPA and Lawyer are both aware of the recent changes and can help to see if you qualify for the new H2B program. H2B Program The H2B Work Visa Program is designed to allow employers to petition for, recruit, and legally hire nonagricultural temporary labor from abroad for a period of up to ten months. The H2B Work Visa is defined as a non-immigrant classification of temporary labor and is limited to 66,000 per year. Under the guidelines of the program, to become eligible to participate, the petitioner must prove through the application process that the alien(s) coming temporarily to the United States are not displacing employment opportunities nor affecting the wages and working conditions of domestic workers. The petitioner must define the need for temporary services or labor as a one-time occurrence, seasonal, peak load or intermittent. Depending on how the need for temporary services or labor is defined and justified by the petitioner, many industries are eligible to participate in this program. The ability to obtain temporary, seasonal labor through this program allows domestic employers the flexibility to meet the changing demands for their services throughout the year. http://uscis.gov/graphics/services/tempbenefits/ecrd.htm#anchorH2

Rob, I'll guarantee number crunching is not my weakness. Let me ask you: How many direct employees are you hiring this year? How many additional work hours do you need to generate to hire additional temporary help and then direct employees in addition to the ones you are planning on now? When you hire your direct employees, are you going to increase your hourly rate, or are you going to keep the same hourly rate as when you paid your weekend helpers? (I'm mean composite rate.) Are you going to keep your employees busy 12 months per year or less? What will they do when they don't work for you? Will they collect unemployment and work under the table for someone else? or are you going to fire them when work slows?

Rob, Your electrician example holds little merit. Can you charge $85 to each of your customers just for providing an estimate for washing their house siding? How many calls do you think you would get if your Yellow Pages ad stated "Professional House Washer" - I charge $85 for each estimate. How many jobs do you think the electrician gets for $170 per hour? or How many estimates do you think he generates at $85 per 1/2 hour. I think that's an apples to oranges example. But regardless... Our regular plumber charges $60 for a house call and any labor that can be completed within the first hour or estimating a larger job. My better half called a different plumbing company one day and his estimate was $175 for 45 minutes worth of work. We use our regular plumber because his price is 1/3rd of the 2nd plumber - who we'll never call again. I understood what you said, but, as I said, my minimum is $135-$150. I will not go out on a job to provide an $85 estimate. My target is not to get 1000 1/2 hour jobs that will pay me $85/job. The expenses to do that would be greater than getting one 500 hr. job that paid $75/hr. I can squeeze a larger profits out of that and I don't need a book to figure that out. I'm not sure what you disagree with. Do you disagree with my statement that $300 was the correct price for my business to bid on cleaning that house? That if I charged $500 I would not have had that specific job? That by pricing myself out of one job, I may not have had the opportunity to get another $24K+ in work? Your statement: "Competetion, going rates, etc.. etc.. have nothing to do with you operating your business and making a handsome living is your birthrite," is rather out of context for my pricing strategy. My philosophy is different from yours - regardless of the content of the book. Just as Macy's philosophy is different from Wal-Marts. I can run a very comfortable business charging $62.50/hr./person. That is a composite rate which is comfortable for my business. I don't use an hourly rate for every job. Most jobs are priced by the sq. ft. or per 1000 bricks or linear feet, or per widget. However, my composite target rate is $62.50 per hour. That means sometimes we make $200/hr. other times we make $40/hr. You can not exponentially increase your project prices or determine your pricing solely on what you want to make. If I wanted to charge twice the going rate for new construction cleaning, I would have NONE = ZERO work in my area. The going rate is typically $30 (+/-) per 1000 bricks. The market would not bear $60 per 1000. Competition and market sets pricing regardless of what I feel the going rate needs to be. The few ways I can impact my profits are: working faster (improving efficiencies staff and equipment), reducing my overhead, reducing my expenses, reducing my labor costs, increasing the number of projects and staffing. This statement also puzzles me a bit: "Anyway, if you can get by with $50-$75 an hour run your biz, pay all your med ins. life ins. retirement funds, kids college, car payments, house payments, taxes etc.. then you are doing good, but I think, no, I know after you read this book, you will change your pricing structure and double your hourly rate, I did and my biz is exploding, and yes I have tons of competetion that charge 1/2 what I do." I too have competition that charges 1/2 what I do as I'm sure most of us do. I'm sure even the $10/hr guys have been undercut. I've done a few jobs at no charge - I bet that ticked off some low ballers. But you assume a lot: - what if I've read the book; - what if all my kids are out of college; - what if my home is paid for; - what if I have no car payments; - what if MY retirement fund is more than adequate for my needs; - what if I have other investments; - what if I own other businesses But even if I had a house payment, what if I average 10 employees that I pay $15 per hour and I bill each out at $62.50 per hour 40 hours per week over an 8 month period. If my composit profit is 35%, can I not eek out a modest living? One of the engineering firms I consulted for had 600 full time employees and the composite rate was $60 per hour. The owner worked less than 240 hours per year at this business. With a net profit of 10%, do you think the owner made enough money to be comfortable? You are thinking like the man that wanted to sell his 1 apple for $1000 and I'm thinking like the man that's willing to sell 1000 apples for $1 each. Same end result, different approach. MY OPINION Bottom line is you can't tell me, and I can't tell you what to charge for doing any job - the basis for each of our business is different and our business goals are different. To that, I'll agree!

That beer guy, Samuel Adams was pretty sharp!

Doug, My minimum is $135-$150 depending on type of work, workload and season. $575 for that size house (including gutter) would get you 1 out of 100 or maybe 50 jobs in my area. Most customers are frugal and somewhat smart (my area is very conservative) - they would figure if it took you 5 hrs. for you to do the job at $60 per hour it would cost $300 at best. GENERALLY, services around here charge approx. in the $60 per hour range or lower (exceptions are plumbers at $65/hr.; car repair is $75; average lawyer is about $100; and the average doctor is about $225 (insurance pays most of doctor's charges). Higher prices are based on supply and demand as in plumber; car repair; doctors; lawyers. Theory is that when your car breaks down, you need to get it fixed NOW (same with lawyers, plumbers and doctors) but if your house is dirty, it can be put off for 2 months, 6 months or a year. Part of what drives pricing is - whether it's a necessity, commodity, luxury or cosmetic? The other part is competition. At $300, if you charge 4 hours for the job, it would gross you $75/hr. (This rate would include all your overhead and all expenses, including estimating averages and your drive time.) If the customer sees a higher rate than what they can justify in their head, (meaning they feel overpriced or cheated) they will not refer you - nor will they consider you for future needs. If you spend 3 hours on site (1 person) you can generally charge 4 hours and cover all your O/H and expenses and you end up with $100 per hour on site rate. This will generally end in a win-win scenario. This is a rate structure that works for me (and is therefore MY OPINION.) De-icing in my area would be generally very slow business. It happens MAYBE once a year. There are some high risks in de-icing roof and gutter areas as you could drive water inside the home. This is a common problem even without forced de-icing. I would not feel comfortable doing this without previous knowledge of the home. Installing icing and snow build-up prevention devices would be a safer approach. (MY OPINION)

Folks, I didn't say if you could or could not wash those homes in 2 hours - what I said was: "I guess washing and rinsing 2 sides of a house at one time depends on what size the houses are that you are washing, how dirty they are and if the sides are exposed to the sun in 95+ degree temperatures. ..." We did have to disconnect several down-spouts as they drained into a pond and the storm drain system. The patio and sidewalk were already clean and the sealer was still in tact on that property (no wooden deck). However, we cleaned & resealed the customer's driveway. In addition we cleaned his brothers house, cleaned and sealed his brother's driveway. These people helped me generate over $25K of work in their neighborhood (in 1 year). They continue to be my "diamond in the rough" customers. Rob, Just curious - If you charge $450 for a 2 hour job ($225 per hour), why do you charge $125 for an hour of gutter cleaning? Here is the front of the 2nd house:

Rob, Insurance will vary not only based on provider's differences but between regions and also the specifics of the businesses being insured along with specifics of the policy. Off the top of my head, here are some factors I can think of that impact costs of a policy: - How long you've been in business. - How many claims have been made against you. - What type of work you do (commercial, residential, deck restoration, concrete cleaning, fleets, tall buildings, etc.). - How many employees you have. - How much liability coverage is on YOUR facility. - How much of YOUR equipment is covered. - How much liability coverage you carry on single incident and aggregate. - Whether your coverage includes the substrate you are cleaning or working on or NOT.

Ron, The precautions we take are fairly common: - Pre-wet and rinse plants and foliage. - Windows are pre-wet and rinsed before detergent dries. - Only tape if we run across open phone boxes, open electrical outlets or vents we can't cautiously work around. - We use EXTREME caution around electric lines leading into homes. - I look for paint that may be failing/chipping when I bid the work and either pass on the work, or if I feel comfortable enough not to pass on the work, I put a note in the estimate and we use extreme caution when cleaning. - With pre-wetting and rinsing, brass and most metals are not or have not been an issue for us. However, I keep an eye out and make notes of special items on each estimate. The only time brass, copper and other metals are of concern is when we do new construction, or clean with acids - then we tape as necessary. - Run-off is always a concern - I check to see where the gutter spouts run off to and sometimes have to redirect or disconnect, as I've found some to run off onto plants, into creeks, ponds or storm systems. - Run-off is also a concern on driveways - we dam to keep it away from the streets and storm systems. - Working around asphalt is always a concern for us, using detergents that are heavy degreasers - it tends to take the oils out of asphalt. We pre-wet and rinse heavily and keep run-off from puddling on asphalt. 90% of driveways are horribly constructed - rather than being slightly crowned (less crown than football fields have), they are concave or flat with sink holes, sags or just run toward a garage, or the house. If constructed flat, driveways should slant away from structures and slightly to one side. Driveway, porch and other concrete rinsing is one of the key elements I look for when estimating, as in a lot of cases can consume a lot of time and kill healthy profits. - We use the X-jet and other methods to clean. When we use the X-jet, we are cautious to avoid close contact and not blow water under the siding. We stick around long enough after each job to ensure that if there are any, all weeps are wiped away so we don't have to make a trip back to FIX. We also do a walk around after we think we are finished, but before clean-up to ensure nothing is missed. If the customer is home, then they are asked to review and judge the work before we leave. - Of course general safety is always on our minds. We keep it there with two key mottos: "Safety First and Make IT Last!" and "Safety is NO Accident!"

It didn't happen on my shift! Looks like that one fella is getting a new truck out of this deal! I was watching them unload railcars the other day. They had about 6 of those small unloaders and 2 large units working at one time. I've seen a train with an oversized load dump its load at a tunnel a century ago when I was consulting for P&G. (That didn't happen on my shift either.) That one lost a .75MM piece of equipment. There were a couple of heads that rolled over that one. The rail company is supposed to check sizes but they had a short tape measure also. The insurance company was not real pleased either. The only ones that made out were the fabricators and machine shops - they got to make a bunch of new parts and re-assemble it again.

Here is another:

Rob, You need to remember that for a large number of folks out there, downstreaming does not work (or work properly) when hose lengths are in excess of 150 feet. The X-jet is a solution for those folks. I guess washing and rinsing 2 sides of a house at one time depends on what size the houses are that you are washing, how dirty they are and if the sides are exposed to the sun in 95+ degree temperatures. Here is the typical size (vinyl sided) house we wash.

Doug, The rinse aid technology is fairly complicated as it pertains to formulations and there are many different types of rinse aids on the market. You can put rinse aid in your detergent mix, but you have to be careful to choose the correct product. Originally dishwashers had a separete rinse aid dispenser. As the consumer forgot to fill this dispenser, dishes were not being rinsed properly which shifted companies strategy to start adding time release water conditioning and rinse agent beads to the detergents which are released in the rinse cycle. Most rinse aids that are formulated to be used in the rinse cycle, counteract foaming action. If you put these types into your detergent, they start breaking it down. Many of these rinse aids also work by reducing/neutralizing the pH level. Depending on the rinse aids effectiveness, you may or may not see a drastic reduction of your detergent's effectiveness. In any case, look for commercial products that are formulated to be combined with high pH detergents such as Citracleen (which has concentrate ph of 12.8 and 1% Dilution ph of 11.3). I'm sure the supplier can tell you if their rinse agent is formulated for use in Citracleen.

We don't have a lot of stucco homes in this area. A few homes from the 50's, that's about it. Most stucco/Dry-vit is commercial construction. A spider brush works well. 10 minutes around a house while it's still dry gets 95%.

Rob, My question/statements were based on your statement of: "...some of these people have never had their house washed and they are 70-80 years old..." In any case, I understand what you are saying. My amazement is still there for anyone wanting vinyl siding on a home over $300K. Be it popular or not, there is nothing pretty about vinyl siding! (I suppose these are the same people that buy $750K houses on 1/4 acre lots.) Some of the newer style siding (two toned or multi-toned) looks like it's always dirty. People are always offended that I offer to clean them. - well, ...They look dirty!

Rob, "I have some neighborhoods that I have to x-jet the chlorine 3 or 4 to 1 just to kill the first layer of mold, and the repeat that again, some of these people have never had their house washed and they are 70-80 years old and well over $750K in price, now for houses like that I know I have to wash twice I usually charge double, maybe $500-$900 range thaey are in bad shape.." What type of exterior are you cleaning? If the house is that old, it's not vinyl siding and most likely not even aluminum siding. If it's painted wood and that old, the paint is most likely lead based and in poor condition. Cedar siding was not popular in the 20's and 30's and would also be in poor condition if never cleaned or treated. In any case, I wouldn't touch a house like that. I've always been amazed at why houses over $300K would have any vinyl siding on them. It takes all kinds, I guess!

Liquid pool shock normally runs between 10% and 15% Sodium Hypochlorite. It varies by manufacturer, but you can find the percentage on the label. It may be available in higher %, but I have not seen any in my area for the past 5 years. Bleach comes in 3-4% and 6% Sodium Hypochlorite content. You have to read the label for which one you are buying. If you buy Ultra Bleach it's most likely 6%. The 6% bleach is also most commonly presented in the 3/4 gallon containers in the grocery stores. (I don't shop at Wal-Mart so I can't say what they offer.) Powdered Calcium Hypochlorite is generally used as pool shock because it has a close to neutral pH versus the Sodium Hypochlorite which has a high pH of about 14. You can use either for pool shock, but if you use Sodium Hypochlorite then you MAY need to add other chemicals to the water to lower the pH level. There have been a few cases where mold/mildew was so concentrated on homes, that we used 12% at 1:3 dilution rate to get it off quickly. Low concentrations of Sodium Hypochlorite will work, but will take longer. Time is money, so some folks prefer spending an extra $5 in chemicals in lieu of spending an extra 15 minutes, 1/2 hour or 1 hour on the job.

Good information for newbies and some veterans alike! I would like to make a couple of comments: 1) It is important that you read the whole document, as there are statements such as "Charge by the square foot" which may initially sound like that's the only way you should price but in a later section has additional clarification which says it's not really practical to price everything at a square foot rate. The reasoning behind charging by the square foot is the best written explaination I've seen anywhere on these BB's for the newbies. Personally I believe that you should know both methods and use one to cross check against the other and keep in mind that increasing your speed, in most cases is your reward, if you are already competitive in your pricing. 2) While I agree that we can't tell a person what to charge for any specific job, I believe most folks are asking for guidance or a starting point, which we can help with. If we can't guide new contractors in pricing because there are too many variables, than how can we aid them in procedures and what chemicals or products to use, since there are just as many variables in those areas. 3) Closing ratios for call-ins is another area that has some very good points, but again, increasing your cost by 40% can have very negative long term effects that people should understand. For example, you could not apply that to new construction brick cleaning as the pricing is very competitive and set. A 40% increase in that field would lose you 99% of the jobs. Also, if a customer finds out that you are overpricing, you could lose that customer (and by word of mouth others) for life. I believe there are other methods that are more customer friendly and still allow you to make good money. I also believe that finding ways to increase your closing ratio is more important or helpful to a contractor in the long term, than increasing prices. (Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against raising prices for many reasons, including supply and demand.) 4) While I don't agree with the philosophy "If you can't price it, you shouldn't do it", I would concur with a statement more in line with "If you don't know how to get the job done, you shouldn't do it." Pricing is a learning process, especially for people new in the field and losing money on some jobs is a part of the learning process (limiting your losses and speeding up your learning curve should be a major focus for new contractors). Again, I'll say: Don't get me wrong, I think the post is very good and as he says, it's still in the works. My point is that nothing is etched in stone and each contractor needs to continue to read, explore, ask/listen and search new methods to stay competitive in this ever changing world. The contractor that never changes, has the highest risk of becoming obsolete.

Scott, Nothing to be embarassed about. I have the same understanding of the Muslim faiths view of Jesus.

For those of you who watch what you eat...Here's the final word on nutrition and health, and it's a relief to know the truth after all those conflicting medical studies: 1. The Japanese eat very little fat and suffer fewer heart attacks than the Canadians, British or Americans. 2. The Mexicans eat a lot of fat and also suffer fewer heart attacks than the Canadians, British or Americans. 3. The Japanese drink very little red wine and suffer fewer heart attacks than the Canadians, British or Americans. 4. The Italians drink excessive amounts of red wine and also suffer fewer heart attacks than the Canadians, British or Americans. 5. The Germans drink a lot of beer and eat lots of sausages and fats and suffer fewer heart attacks than the Canadians, British or Americans. 6.Ukrainians drink a lot of vodka, eat a lot of perogies, cabbage rolls and suffer fewer heart attacks than the Canadians, British or Americans. CONCLUSION: Eat and drink what you like. Speaking English is apparently what kills you.

Hot tubs are great to reduce stress - unfortunately, todays prices for buying and installing one can increase stress. Overall long-term benefits could be a wash. :goodgrief

Are you testing your employees? Hopefully your results turn out better than this!

I have found one supplier for the pads for quantities under 10K units. Deliveries are reliable and fairly fast. I don't have the tooling cost info yet. I'm also working on a second supplier to keep the first one honest.

Rob, Most folks around my area are very conservative and will NOT act on cleaning until early spring. What's your secret to getting customers to wash their house in the winter?

I agree. Among other benefits, wine and beer (in non-excessive quantities) can release tension or stress in most people. For some (such as alcoholics) it has the reverse effects.