Paul B.

What about ALL the parents that let their children sleep over at Mikey's house after the first allegation years ago? There were many kids that slept over. What were these parents thinking? Wouldn't this be considered child endangerment and should they get to keep their kids?

C'mon guys...NO HORSING AROUND!

Alan, You can cut the material many different ways. However, if you want to sell it cost effectively, manual cutting is not the way to go. I wouldn't want to have to cut 2000-3000 of these manually (not even 40-50 at a time). When you are cutting the black pad on Monday, cut an 8 or 9" diameter pad and add a 5/8" diameter center hole that is concentric with the outside diameter. Think about how many you can cut this way in an hour. Greg's selling price for the pad was $22.50 for qty. 10. RyanH, As I said, the material is not hard to find. Cutting a few by hand can be done relatively easy. Getting the manufacturer to do wha t you need cost effectively and in quantities under 10,000 is. If they do not have a die to cut 5/8 diameter holes, they have to make some (tooling cost is passed on to the purchaser). High production rotary die cutting inserts CAN BE somewhat costly. Adding the core hole after the fact along with getting the OD and ID concentric increases the cost of the pads dramatically . The industrial standard for the 9" diameter pad is a 2-3/4" core, anything else is SPECIAL order. The dimensions for the pad are: 9" OD, 3/4" thick, with 5/8" ID core. Dale, The one in the first photo is actually a brand new (never used) pad. It's the photo quality that is bad. The digital camera I took it with does not have a macro mode. I took the photo a while back to show someone what the texture looked like.

This is a Makita Polisher that some use.

Here is one on a DeWalt polisher.

I heard rumors of it a couple of weeks ago and Greg did mention a couple of months ago that they may get out of the selling business this year. Alan, Hole saw would not work well on this material. RyanH, Defelting pads are used on a high speed buffer to remove furring on decks after stripping. It is much faster than sanding. Here is a close-up of it:

Dale, "They stamp the 9" circle at the same time they stamp the center." That is the most efficient and cost effective manufacturing process and guarantees that the core is concentric to the outside diameter. Having a core punched by the manufacturer is also the least amount of work for the end user. You can add the core after the fact, but it adds time and money to the cost. With a fixture, you can control the concentricity issue. You can cut the material with shears or "X" the area of the core, but that is not a long term solution.

Reed, The material is a Non-Woven Nylon/Polyester Fiber. Material manufacturers are not difficult to find, but I wouldn't be open (at this point) to discuss and share details that may harm the work Beth or I have done (separately) in trying to establish a primary or back-up source of suppliers. It wouldn't be fair for one person to pay for the tooling and have others reap the benefits without compensation - this is one reason for a primary and secondary supplier. My thought is that Greg had an exclusive arrangement and it sounded like the relationship broke down. I think it will take in excess of $10K (most likely above $15K) to establish a solid relationship with a supplier that will provide on-demand supply of the product at reasonable rates. It would take a couple of years to recoup the initial investment. There are several options on approaching the supply/demand issue - one may be of a lower initial investment, but higher price to the customer. There are others that are a bit more complex in structure, but achievable. I'll say that the key is not finding the material, but getting someone to make the parts exactly as needed - this is a SPECIAL ORDER item. If Greg's source is still willing to make it on-demand, small quantity runs and at reasonable rates, I'm sure we are going to have pads available soon.

Beth, There is someone out there. Reed, 3M is one of about 6 companies that makes the pad material. The issue is in tooling for the core and quantities to make. Most use rolling cutting dies and a new die insert (if they do not have it, can cost upwards of $5000). 10,000 pad is a quantity run of less than a half day (it should be less than 1 hour, knowing the converting process). The larger a company, the more difficult it is to get to anyone who can make decisions and get you fast answers. I've talked to countless people at different companies and their distributors with a great deal of frustration due to their lack of response or interest. It's amazing how you can talk face to face with someone and tell them what you need, then when you talk to them 2 weeks later they still have not done anything. I talked to one person no less than 4 times before he actually made a call. I've gone up the ladder even and the managers seem lackadaisical. (Fire them all.) Throwing money at them doesn't help as either they are hourly or salaried. Find the person that works on commission and you get better answers.

I'm also working on several sources. I started looking into it for the same reason everyone else is. Greg got us hooked and then he forgot about us. After 3 months, I gave up on my order. Even if he starts selling it again, I think there is a need for a second and maybe a third source. If he doesn't sell it, then there is a need for at least 2 sources to carry it. I think it only makes good business sense (from the consumer standpoint, anyway). The problem is the core diameter is special (industry standard for the pad is 2-3/4"). The 5/8" core diameter requires a tooling charge, a tooling change and a special run, every time you order. There are other ways to add the core hole, but if you are not working off a production line, the process is slow and therefore the cost goes up quickly. Adding the holes after the fact, is not the most cost effective way to go. The larger the order, the easier it is to get - once you get thru to the source. People are not real interested in talking about special runs unless you are talking about "X" number of pads at a time. The other problem is breaking into their production runs when they are busy - you are at their mercy for delivery, so you need to have a good feel for how much you'll sell in a season. If you have to order at the end of the season, you don't have customers to buy them all and you have many thousand $$ worth of pads sitting in inventory or no inventory for the customer to purchase. The profit margins are not very much, for that much money being tied up, and if the product is sitting on the shelf. I have set aside funds to become a primary or secondary source.

GUNN-Man, With all the choices out there, being right doesn't always get you the money you deserve. I usually like the path that makes me work the least to collect the already earned money (call me lazy). Fortunately the IRS recognizes that most businesses have dealings with less than honorable cutomers and therefore allow you to deduct "Bad Debt" on your federal income taxes. Make sure you take the deduction for 2003. The year you get the money, you can add it as income.

Jon, "The only reason they have laws are for people to break them so they can be fined. Hence TAXED." This statement is probably more true today than it was 25-30 years ago. We've so lost the meaning of what laws were for.

I don't care for the size and organization of the IRS and the support systems associated with it myself, however, I do not see it disappearing as there are too many people profiting from it. Without a long dissertation on my part, I understand product taxation - I just don't believe higher sales taxes (especially to the higher tax rates of 23-24%) would benefit the lower income level people, since their burden would increase and they are already not paying much if any income tax. Also, most products already have sales tax in addition to the income taxes, as certain communities (because of their size) can not sustain existance or growth without it. Having said that, I am also against our income tax system the way it is, but I visualize it differently. I am by NO means advocating a union for P/W's. I'm NOT in favor of unions myself (however I do recognize their place in history and the fact that they did help against greedy and un-caring employers). I am also NOT in favor of systems that rely solely on government licensing and control of every move and every breath we take. Neither Socialism or Communism works very well and I just see us heading away from Democracy, the more we allow government controls in lieu of "self control". What I am supporting is Non-Unionized organization(s) that would benefit this trade. I see this as a voluntary contribution that would not benefit specific individuals per say, but the entire trade. I also believe that if a community creates a law that requires all business to have licensing, than it is that community's responsibility to help the businesses that obey the laws and punish the ones that do not. Businesses should have to show their operating licenses to bid on work. (Maybe even to the extent where the consumer should be fined for using non-licensed contractors.) Similarly, I think there should be more crackdown on businesses that use illegal labor or that pay employees under the table or avoid taxes, workers comp., etc. These businesses help promote OUR high taxes and low wages in lieu of higher profits in the owners pockets. In otherwords, I don't believe we need more laws, bat rather, need better enforcement of the ones that are already in place.

I agree with reducing the bad seeds, I'm just not sure additional laws and regulations are the optimum way to approach it. After all, there are too many other approaches that are available. Off the top of my head, these are some areas I would address before creating more laws and initiating cost barriers: Contractor education, Customer education, (increasing customer access to BB's, improving BB quality, National advertising) Generating additional customer referrals such as: Amy's List, Improving PW association Improving manufacturer's product quality, Consumer report for contractor products Getting the manufacturers to increase consumer education Reducing Workman's comp. costs Reducing Liability Insurance costs Reducing and simplifying small business taxes.

Call me a pessimist but I don't think licensing would weed out the bad seeds or raise the quality bar enough to justify the negatives - there are many bad doctors, nurses, lawyers, financial advisers, brokers and car mechanics out there. (Need I continue?) It may, however, raise the financial bar - which would be enough good news for some of the advocates of licensing. You see, the problem I see with licensing is that the testing would most likely be very week and overpriced and as Jon said, unless nationally administered, be inconsistent (lawyers and doctors require testing by state - I can't see P/W's). I can't see it having any more validity than being a Flood or Wolman's certified deck specialist. And ...you could still have many non-licensed part timers out there. The $500 amount doesn't apply in every state (only special states that already overburden almost all small business owners). Go Arnold!

Jon, I agree, licensing or certification for P/W's would be a waste all around. It would be nice if sales taxes were quarterly - they are monthly if you collect over $200 in 6 months. Paid twice per year if under $200. I spend thousands of $ a year on materials that I can be exempt from paying taxes on to my supplier. (We have many jobs where materials alone are in excess of $500.) If I didn't file exempt on these, I would double pay sales tax on this portion. ...I only need one set of books. Services were exempt from labor sales tax for a long time in Ohio, (only having to pay sales tax on materials). Some services are still exempt, but they are fewer every month. I'm afraid income taxes may never disappear as there are too many jobs at risk of disappearing along with it (such as the IRS and all their employees, tax attorneys and all their employees, CPA's and..., etc., etc.).

(I understand these vary by state, county and city.) My P/W business is set up in Ohio as LLC (Limited Liability Company) and is filed under the states provisions and administration. This registers the company and keeps anyone else from using the company name I registered. LLC is shown on all company advertising and documents. In addition, the county requires a business license, regardless of a business having a store front or being operated out of your home. (Some businesses are not allowed to be run out of your home based on county or city zoning ordinances). Sales taxes are administered by the state, but the final % are arrived at by each county. The state determines what business should collect taxes on services. Just as an example, in Ohio I collect sales tax on materials and service on all work my company performs (per state laws). I charge Sales & Use Taxes per county where the work is performed. Ohio has 89 counties and the sales tax varies from 6.5 to 7.5% per county. They require that I collect, track and file these sales taxes. I send the state all monies collected and they disburse it to the counties that I collected from. RyanH, you say: "The only thing I charge for is my "service," meaning I don't factor the cost of the materials into the job when I give an estimate, much like you wouldn't factor the cost of the paper on which your invoice is printed into your overall cost to your customers." Every expense of my business (including the paper the invoices are printed on) are factored into the hourly rate or total estimate I present to my customer to arrive at the net income I wish to have at the end of the year. It's a function of doing business. Not all states have income taxes (such as Florida, Nevada and Alaska), as they generate sufficient income from tourism, gambling and in the case of Alaska oil. Most states do not have these luxuries and do not wish to further burden their residents with high taxes on food products. The low income groups do not pay very much if any income tax and also pay no taxes on food products (other that what is consumed in a restaurant).

RyanH, I'm not sure I understand your reasoning behind your post: "the city wants a business license. From what I have learned in talking to others, this is purely a tax-related requirement. The city wants to be able to tax a business on all of its assets and functions, and licensing is an easy way to track businesses.... ...I will not get licensed unless I see some personal benefit to it." If you don't have a business license, you are not considered a legitimate business by at least your city, maybe county?, and maybe state? (The feds don't care as long as you are paying them your fair share of taxes.) If you are not paying taxes, you could be fined and also accumulate interest that you would be personally responsible for. Is pressure washing a texable service in your state? If it is, are you collecting taxes on your work? Are you paying sales taxes on the products that you purchase and apply on your customers homes? Usually, even if service is not taxable, materials are (at least in select states). If you do deck staining work for example, you would have to collect and pay taxes at least on materials used such as the stain (even if it wasn't required on labor.) As a business, you would be allowed to be exempt from paying sales tax when you purchase your stain, but you would collect it from the customer, and pay it to your state/county. This is how your city/county has money to operate and bring you some of their services.

One Monday morning a mailman is walking the neighborhood on his usual route. As he approaches one of the homes, he notices that both cars are in the driveway. His wonder is cut short by Bob, the homeowner coming out with a load of empty beer and liquor bottles. "Wow Bob, looks like you guys had a hell of a party last night." the mailman comments. Bob in obvious pain replies, "Actually we had it Saturday night, this is the first I have felt like moving since 4 am Sunday morning. We had about fifteen couples from around the neighborhood over for the Christmas Cheer and got a bit wild. Hell, we even got so drunk that around midnight we started playing WHO AM I." The mailman thinks a moment and says, "How do you play that?" Bob continues between hung over gasps, "Well, all the guys go in the bedroom and we come out one at a time with a sheet covering us and only our "units" showing through a hole in the sheet. Then the women try to guess who it is." The mailman laughs and says, "Darn, I am sorry I missed that." "Probably a good thing you did," Bob responds, "your name was guessed four or five times."

John T., Thanks for starting this thread. Consider it hokey-pokey, but I think there was destiny involved. I thought you had some good insight from perspectives of religion(s) but don't let that cloud the issue of faith. As long as you are clear on faith, what religion, if any is not significant. I can understand how some religions can muddy up the water and I could discuss in length specifics of a couple of religions that exemplify their distorted behavior. If you study your bible, I think the distortions become very clear, however, that does not change the words or if you prefer, the intent of GOD. There are some religions within the Christian faith that are truer to the words of GOD, but I don't know if there is a thing as a perfect interpretation unless you keep searching - GOD's words even tell you that. Keep the faith and Godspeed!

Folks, I always thought that anyone could jump in at any time with any thoughts as this format allows that better than if you were trying to talk sitting around a table. I also thought that anyone not interested would just simply avoid this thread rather then tell us to shut up. ;) The last person standing or talking will hopefully realize that there is no one around listening to him/her before too long (same as on any other thread). :down Sounded to me like Scott wanted to get in on the fun. I'm willing to stick around... :D

Dale, No insult intended in my post. I was offering circumstantial evidence (NOT FACTS) - you seem to keep saying I'm offering ideas as facts when I keep saying I'm offering evidence that can lead people to a conclusion. I have already come to my conclusions, I don't need convincing in case of evolution or creation. (I'll say once again that I agree there is also evolution going on but not anywhere near as drastic as single cell to man.) "My reference to facts being relevant was the assumption that left handed proteins or whatever show "creator"..thats all." I was not offering a conclusion, but rather one piece of evidence in a series of many that may or may not help somene draw a conclusion. As for the length of posts: I'll keep it short if you will. If we are both defending points or offering evidence, it's hard to respond to one when there are 6 or 7 other items to discuss. "So what am I saying?..the same thing I've said all along..I don't think either side has all the answers, and I think more information is needed to arrive at a explaination." I guess my next question here is: Do you think we can offer any information, evidence or any comment you have not already heard that will help YOU arrive at an explaination? I'm afraid if I waited for science to prove either case or offer another option 100% or to fully explain everything, I could never make a decision not just on this, but anything else. You need some feeling, and faith! - Look into the eyes of a baby and repeat: You are a product of evolution from a single cell. - Look at animals and repeat: You are a product of evolution from a single cell. - Think out how bees polinate trees and plants and repeat: You are a product of evolution from a single cell. - Ask yourself why the birth cycle has not evolved (or shortened if you ask a woman) and repeat: You are a product of evolution from a single cell. - Why is the desire for *** different between humans and animals and repeat: You are a product of evolution from a single cell. - Why can humans talk, but no animals can and repeat: You are a product of evolution from a single cell. I'm not offering any of this as evidence (YET)!

Scott, As far as I'm concerned, your opinion counts for as much as anyone else's in this discussion. Dale may not necessarily agree, but if you don't present your thoughts, how do we know we didn't exclude something of importance. Besides, you're not as mean as you look, ...I'm sure you can take criticism. Take a couple of aspirins and jump in - the water is nice!

Dale, OK, so your position is that I made up the information on the protein molecule chain, or at least that I used a very unreliable source. I encourage you to search the latest scientific data available on this subject. If I may respond to your quoted statement: "Again the premise is being made that the facts being presented are not only true .but relevant....sweeping statements like "ALL life consists of"....and then no doubt a barrage of M.E.G.O. (.My Eyes Glaze Over) information. Paul, Who's your source..hopefully not Gish. - Once again, I'll say that I presented this as circumstantial evidence, which I thought you were in acceptance of. - Without knowing and hearing all my arguments, you are willing to dismiss all of it as irrelevant. ...and you still want to state that you do not have a predetermined disposition? ...that you are willing to listen with an open mind? - Have you already dismissed all scientific evidence that points toward creation (by labelling it M.E.G.O)? - Sounds like the only FACT that I could provide you with would be to present you GOD or his phone number or would the proof of devil be a fact to the existance of GOD? I'm assuming this statement refers to Creation and Evolution: "This may be a condition that actually supports a view showing the limits of logic....but my position has aways been its not "either"..."or"..." So what are you saying? You believe in creation and evolution? You doubt creation and evolution? When I had asked you previously if you offered another option, you said: "Do I have an alternative to evolution/creation? No..like I stated I think there are holes in both..but when someone suggests the the case IS settled..all learning stops." I don't understand why learning would have to stop if the issue of creation and evolution is settled? Would that then leave me to be the only person in the world willing to learn? I do not think that "Believers" in general seek knowledge because there are non-believers but rather because there is desire to know the unknown (and of course vice versa). GOD encourages discovery and learning. All He asks for is faith and to follow his guidelenes. GOD also offers us choices. What does evolution offer? We were accidentally created and then we die for ever. There is no hope. Evidence #000.002 Actually, although he believes that he is on the right track, Prigogine does not claim he has solved the problem of the origin of life or the origin of complex biological organizations. In a book he co-authored in 1977, the year he won the Nobel Prize, Prigogine says: `There seems to be no doubt that dissipative structures play an essential role in the function of living systems as we see them today. What was the role of dissipative structures in evolution? It is very tempting to speculate that prebiotic evolution corresponds essentially to a succession of instabilities leading to an increasing level of complexity.' (Nicolis G. & Prigogine I., "Self-Organization in Non-equilibrium Systems", 1977, p12). Gish does have memorable quotes, one of which refers to Prigogine. "What is the answer that Nicolis and Prigogine give to their question, `What was the role of dissipative structures in evolution?'-It is very tempting to speculate! No doubt it was tempting for Nicolis and Prigogine to speculate about such matters, but since when have tempting speculations become scientific solutions to an extremely vexing and complex problem?" (Gish D.T., "Creation Scientists Answer Their Critics", 1993, p187) I suppose you also (with an open mind) dismiss everything from Berlinski. If I may also quote Berlinski: "When Ilya Prigogine won a Nobel Prize for his work in thermodynamics, the reaction among mathematicians was thankfulness that no one in a position to disburse funds, or anyone else for that matter, had any idea of what he was talking about." (Berlinski D., "From Bad to Worse", "Black Mischief: Language, Life, Logic, Luck", 1988, p59) So you are not willing to accept or discuss "specified complexity" as it relates to human and animal life? So in essence are you saying that you have dismissed all scientific evidence that pertains to creation?? Evidence #000.003 The argument being that in living organisms and manufactured products both exhibit the property of ORGANIZATION/SPECIFIED COMPLEXITY (vs. random by chance occurance supported by evolution). Organized / specified complexity would therefore indicate a "blueprint" for life. "The blueprint for an organism's organization and metabolism are contained within the genes, the hereditary factors that are passed on when an organism reproduces. In all organisms, the genes are composed of the complex chemical DNA, which can be copied so that all the cells of a multicellular organism, including sperm and eggs, receive a copy." (Mader S.S., "Biology", 1990, p5) "Nucleic acids are enormous molecules that store the hereditary blueprints for the synthesis of proteins." (Wilson E.O., et al., "Life on Earth", 1973, p47) "The nucleic acids are, of course, the hereditary material. They contain the blueprint for the organism which is passed from parent to daughter cells. DNA duplicates during replication, to provide a blueprint copy for each daughter. The design of DNA, with its two complementary chains, makes this event possible." (Shapiro R., "Origins: A Skeptic's Guide to the Origin of Life", 1986, pp133-134)" Evidence #000.004 There is no evidence that a "protein" can "arise" "through random variations". Yockey has calculated the minimum number of amino acids that could arise by chance in a billion years as only 49 amino acids long, which is much too short to code for a living system: "Taking into account only the effect of the racemic mixture the longest genome which could be expected with 95% confidence in 10^9 years corresponds to only 49 amino acid residues. This is much too short to code a living system so evolution to higher forms could not get started." (Yockey H.P., "A Calculation of the Probability of Spontaneous Biogenesis by Information Theory," Journal of Theoretical Biology, 67, 1977, p377) Evidence #000.005 "Cairns-Smith also describes the `messages' contained in the genetic information stored in the "library" of each cell's DNA, which are transcribed and translated to direct the synthesis of proteins. His language is entirely typical of others who write about this subject: practically all stress the appearance of design and purpose, the immense complexity of the simplest cell, and the apparent need for many complex components to work together to sustain life. Everyone uses the vocabulary of intelligent communication to describe protein synthesis: messages, programmed instructions, languages, information, coding and decoding, libraries. Why not consider the possibility that life is what it so evidently seems to be, the product of creative intelligence?" (Johnson P.E., "Darwin on Trial", 1993, p112). Evidence #000.006 DNA has specified complexity (as acknowledged by evolutionists Dawkins, Orgel and Crick) In my opinion: "Specified complexity", namely a human language message, is the product of intelligent design; Therefore the probability that DNA is the product of "Intelligent Design" is very, very high. "Intelligent Design" points toward a creator and away from evolution. I have other types of circumstantial evidence to submit if there is an interest.

Envirospecs Limonene works well Sun Brite's All-Brite also provides good results. Hotsy's Ripper I works but is extremely expensive in comparison to others. As I understand, Ripper I is more cost effective for fleet cleaning from what they say.