Paul B.

Reed, Thanks for sharing your experience and good info. I appreciate it and respect it very much.

Just recieved a call this morning to provide an estimate to re-finish a deck - story in a moment but first I wanted to let you know that I don't really expect to get this job, but I'm very curious (you'll see why). The story: This gentleman tells me he has a 12 year old deck that he has stained with Behr semi-transparent stain every other year (so far, so good). It has never been stripped, so at least 5-6 coats are there (starting to head south). It was stained last September and for some reason it's starting to blister (Hmmm ...I wonder why?). Before staining each time, it was cleaned with water only. He has a claim going with Behr and he thinks it's their fault that the finish is failing (I better hire a lawyer). Behr told him he should not be putting 2 coats on horizontal and should be stripping and sanding between coats. He does not understand why (sounds like - if 1 coat is good, 2 coats should be better and 10 should be great). He states that after some pressure by Home Depot, he has Behr's promise that they will pay but he needs 2 estimates. I'm almost positive that Behr will only reimburse for the cost of the product, but I could be wrong. Who knows what angle this man has? (He will most likely pocket the money and do the work himself again.) He wants to stay with the same product even though another contractor and I both told him that there are much better products out there. I tried to educate him on cleaning, neutralizing and staining process (I think I just ticked him off - Mean Papa stop that). At least by his words, I was very consistant with the other contractor on the product and the process - there may be hope for him if he does not think we're both lying. And of course he is in a hurry for the estimate (I better find out if he is a lawyer himself). Like I said, I don't expect to be awarded this job (even if my bid is competitive), but you can be sure my numbers will be at the high end - sorry Behr. I will not guarantee the product only my workmanship. The estimate will include stripping with HD-80, Neutralizing with Citralic Acid, sanding/defurring, (1) coat Behr on horizontal and (2) coats on vertical. Staining after wood moisture level is below 12%. Again, I would normally turn down bidding for this type of a person and on this type bid but I'm curious to see what 10 to 12 coats of Behr product looks like on a surface. I will try to take photos and post for your viewing experience. I may decide to cancel after I sleep on it over-night or get another offer I cant refuse (but I'm still curious, aren't you?).

Last photo (for you).

Photo No. 5

Photo No. 3

Photo No. 2

Better late then never??? You tell me. I went to look, measure and did provide an estimate. I didn't see 5-6 layers of stain like I expected, I did see about 2. If it was applied every 2 years without stripping (like he said) the stain must have peeled away on its own and with the washing. Not a great protection product in my opinion. - It's a water based product (first strike against it - just my opinion) - Based on the cracks in the wood, the product did not protect well or was not applied in the early (formative) years. - Judging from the blisters and peeling and mold under the paint, the substrate was not cleaned and prepared properly for the protective stain. - He said he applied 2 coats to both vertical and horizontals surfaces. 2 things here: - Behr does not recommend 2 coats on horizontal for peeling reasons. - And why would you apply 2 coats of a semi-transperent that will give you a solid look? Why not go to a solid??? - It could be that the first coat of stain was not fully dry before the second coat was applied (but I don't think that cause the peeling on the horizontal but not on vertical). I've attached several photos, feel free to comment or express your opinions.

Did you ever get an answer or the info you were looking for?

The soldiers weren't stupid, only their leaders. All the weapons in the world will not help you if you don't have a good plan and a good cause to fight for.

I think the "wand" motto was on one of the napkins that the barmaid took.

Paul - UK I don't suppose they use the term hosed on your side of the pond. Here it means to take you for all we can, rip you off, over charge, take you to the cleaners. We need to send you the newest collegiate American dictionary - I hear they added some 15,000 new slangs - like "hosed".

I was thinking of the same thing... Do you have ESPN or what?I've got my order in for (2) Key Lime pies for a BD coming up (two are just as easy to bake as one and between the cats and I, we like to lick the bowls clean (I got to let them go first though cause they don't like to eat after me). I also get to lick the electric mixer but the last time I forgot to unplug it - talk about a close call. Anyway a BD is about the only time I can get her to fix it for me. She always says my favorite is Coconut cream. Last BD she fixed me Coconut Cream after I requested Key Lime for nearly a month. I had to write it on my forehead with a marker "My favorite is Key Lime Pie." What does she know anyway. My favorite is Key Lime, but anything with fruit or alcohol in it is OK by me! Heck, you should taste her grape pie. She hates grape season. Man, it's fun watching the girls stomp those grapes (I won't eat that stuff though, that goes to the friends and family). I eat the ones that are hand sqeezed - boiling or no boiling.

It depends on the product. I just purchased a bunch of shelf closing Wolman brighteners at $1.97 per 2.25# (normally sells for $14.99). How much could I waste in $$$ ? However, I wouldn't use it with the Prosoco EK Masonry Cleaner at $130 plus per 5 gallons at 75-150 sq ft per gallon. You have to choose your weapon properly. If you only have 1 tool it's not much of a choice. Unlike in large industry, I teach people to think and learn instead of making everything idiot proof. Beth, No the close-up is not adjustable, but it's a 1/4" meg nozzle like the ones on a surface cleaner except large opening (4030). You could increase or decrease the hole diameter which would change the draw rate. You could go to a 4015 which would maintain your draw rate and reduce your pattern width. Unless the adjustable nozzle was calibrated with stops it would be difficult to know what your draw ratio was at any given time. They do make fixed stop, adjustable injectors that could be made to work with some modifications. We use an extension wand with the X-Jet at times (hard to reach places), then for better control near large louvers we will attach the close-up attchment (keeps chemicals and water out of the attic).

Beth, you may ask all the questions you want, ...may not get a lot of straight answers...:D This is my second response and I hate repeating myself (laptops are great but a pain in the hands). Too much coffee already since 5 am - sorry another long post coming (everyone else left - no one else is willing to listen - you are my captive audience for the next few)! New Construction has been the bread and butter in the past and it's booked solid this year (hard winter and the war over). My main goal was to target full-day or multi-day projects in the same area as this reduces the overhead costs and non-productive time. Having said that, I'm way off course right now with unexpected, but pleasant results at present - tack and pull- in the jib. I did a half-hearted marketing campaign last year for deck, concrete and house washing and everything looked very promising. I was targeting to spend 3 days a week working on Genesis sales and marketing/estimating and 2 days on the masonry sales and estimating (the masonry estimating is a bit more time consuming and detailed). I am working 7 days a week. I wanted part time work, I like gardening, traveling, playing music and watching others work too much to be tied down like this. I'm too tired to even blow the harp. I'll be napping thru the bluesfest at the end of May. The water hauling business boomed during the draught and had to go. No wonder the better half wants to go work for someone else - she thinks I make everyone work too hard. Personally I think they (especially her 93 year old mom and my 75 year old mom) take too many breaks.:D :D :D The kids don't visit because they're afraid I'll put them to work for their meals (free-loaders). The cats are getting way too fat - although Katie is a mouse/mole/rabbit killer - she likes to bite their heads off. My partner is booked solid on the masonry business 4 crews of 7-8 til the end of July and several small 2-3 person crews. We are subcontracting with at least 2 other crews. A VP and a GM of two large builders are literally begging not to finish and move out of a sub-division without calling them directly first (we do repairs that no one else will touch because they think it's too small - but we are netting over $1K per day on a 2-3 man crew. The construction business backed up also from this winter. You've heard the expression feast or famine? This is the up cycle of the sinewave! Make up for some of the market losses! My target for this year was going to be residential restoration and the calls are surprisingly numerous already - the bid acceptance is also in the 80-85% range and my numbers are not low. There are not many folks in my area that are doing this type of work. Also increased my efforts on residential siding cleaning with the focus on 2 story homes. There again, the response has been tremendous - it seems like there are not a lot of folks addressing this area either. I just booked several homes in a sub-division yesterday as a result of work for the retired mayor of a small close by area. His sub-division has a lot of Cape Cod style homes that only the homeowners are trying to clean. He has given me close to 20 leads that he will be my reference on. (You know how small towns are - you can live or die by one mouth.) I was going to pass on his work initially because it is a bit far, especially now that we can be a bit more picky, but I'm glad I slept on it over night. Same as the deck work for the doctor I posted the other day - I slept on it overnight and decided to bid it because you just never know. - I have to praise GOD in allowing me to take good care of my family and friends. I'm actually increasing the workload much faster then I intended. I wanted to develop each sector skill before increasing the marketing - I will have to apply the brakes already. As I've typed here, I've received 3 calls for estimates. This spring is crazy!! I hope it's the same for you and the rest of the folks out there!!!! The concrete sealing is the weakest seller at this point. Give it another winter like the last one and that will come around also. It's kind of nice when things cycle out of harmony. But I degress - I can't tell you off the top of my head (I keep good records but I would need to do a bit of accounting on how much we use, as all of our suppliers are very very close by and even when they are out, I can have it here that afternoon or the next morning from another part of town or another city near. Any unopened / unused gets returned on the next swing-by or delivery. I like to stop in and sell work to their customers. I also like the Wolman points/perks. The paperwork between the supplier and workordes get balanced in the middle of each month. The workorders get checked 2 days before each job and all special materials are binned. To answer more specifically deck work is a small portion of our work but receives the highest priority in execution due to the weather factor. We did under 100 decks last year if I remember but a percentage was cleaning only. I promised myself I was NOT getting into warehousing and my shop is almost half full of cleaning STUFF. I take small steps - my partner in masonry takes the leaps. He throws money at things and I make the business grow with minimum debt. So what was your question?

I'm kind of in the same boat as some of the other folks - even though I'm a safety nut - my X-Jet close-up attachment has a very controlled spray pattern (not in windy conditions of course). The only drawback is the 1:3.2 dilution in some cases (I need to fix that and get it to 1:1.6 ratio). We spray neutralizer/ brightener without any issues (so far) but have refrained from spraying strippers. We also use it to spray cleaner and brightener on concrete. The wind is a problem, but it's a problem with a pump-up or a Shur-flo also.

Reed, Are you saying that the TWP quality is lower than before the change? I would love to try Wood Tux but to be honest, I struggle with the freight charges, (not specific to The GrimeScene but in general) they tend to run from 25-50% of the product cost PLUS I still have to pay Ohio sales tax to the governor at the end of the year. Also I don't want to warehouse any more products which would force me to sell a specific color (as some offer free shipping when you buy 25 gallons or more). I challanged one of my suppliers several weeks ago to find a lower cost shipping option (their shipping cost is at 50% of product cost), but he has not responded yet. Good chance he will not get a re-order, just by the lack of response. It's a shame because he's been real helpful and a nice person. I sure hope he calls me even if he can't find another option (I wish sales people would listen a bit closer!) Side-tracked there for a moment. I'm getting a mix of customer preferences this year: TWP, F&P, Penofin, Cuprinol and Cabot. I would say that the cutomer that has done the research, they have their minds made up and you can not get them to budge. The ones without research could care less, as long as the cost fits in their budget and the deck looks good. I will test Ready Seal this year on a family member or friend (they never pay, so they get the experimental projects). The one product that would fill my gap would be a damp type application sealer (Ready Seal or Wood Tux). Whatever direction I go, I will reduce my selection by 2 to offer no more than 4 choices. The Cabot is a keeper for the solids. What can I say? It's a customer's market. I'm looking to pick up a large deck job shortly. The man owns a beer, wine and booze store. He owns the house that our infamous prosecutor owned while hounding Larry Flynt. The prosecutor had money so it was well taken care of. The new owner just had a friend re-finish it last year and it's failing already - has no idea what product or process was used. I buy my imports from him so maybe I can work out a trade - a years supply of Pilsner Urquell or Beck's dark would be a fair barter for me.

A couple of years ago I saw a very entertaining show in Chicago. It was very different, it was very entertaining, it had audience participation, it wa extravagent, it was The Blue Man Group. They have standing shows in New York, Boston, Chicago and Las Vegas year round. I highly recommend it if the ticket prices don't shock you. This year they also have a CD out and are touring. The tour for the moment is on the west coast. They will publish the itinerary later for the remainder of the tour. Check it out at www.blueman.com I bet you've seen them in some commercials over the past couple of years. Enjoy the show...we did!

How many of you have seen Killdeer (not a deer killed) close-up during nesting season. Personally, I think they were shorted on survival skills. How many birds do you know that can fly and still decide to lay their eggs on the ground? Other than chickens and turkeys, can't say I know too many myself. Have you tried to sneak up on their nest? Isn't it amazing how they feign being injured (acting like they have a broken wing)? ...All this to lead you away from their nest of eggs on the ground. Last year a snake got 2 of their eggs. This year they survived the plowing. The Chimney Swifts are back this year. It's about time too, the mosquitos have been after my flesh for the past 3-4 weeks now. The Swifts are like bats, flying around at dusk, eating bugs in the air. Go get that big fat mosquito ...it's got my blood.

We just purchased a mate for our bird and had it to the vet for a check-up. The vet explained to us that unlike Canadian geese, our type of bird is not monogomous (this one has probably been around the block a few times). Anyway, the vet said it had a disease of a s e x ual nature. I was shocked and in awe to hear this: It is a form of canarial disease ...it's called Chirpies ...and it's untweetable.

I steer away from bidding on ranch style vinyl siding. More are rejected than accepted. I target selling more 2 story houses, the more difficult, the better - because I know not many homeowners will or can do what we can. So even when the price is high, there is a higher level of acceptance. In the initial call, I always ask if the home is one story or more. If the say ranch, I usually mention that our prices start at $135 for that type of home - would you like for me to provide an estimate? That weeds at a large percentage of the $50-$100 range expectations. I also concentrate on brick homes that have oxidation stains, lime runs, efflorescence or white scum - most home owners will not know how to deal with these types of stains and will not have the proper equipment for it. The decks are a totally different animal. Again I try to not provide prices over the phone, but again I attempt to screen the $100-$200 customers by providing a minimum $$$ charge for our services. I know I will lose some potential sales by doing this and a lot of GOOD sales people will disagree with this approach but I am only an average salesperson and at this point am willing to target a higher priced audience. If my approach gets to a point where I/we start getting hungry, my approach will be revisited. I'll search my files for bad job photos (it may take a couple of days).

Joel, That sounds like the story about the $10 cost of a red scarf. I don't remember it exactly but a short recap goes something like this: Red shoes to go with it $15. Red purse to match scarf and shoes $45. Candy Apple Red corvette to go with shoes purse and scarf $5500 (old story). Insurance for corvette ($600) Speeding ticket $100 Total cost of red scarf = $6,270

There are all kinds of experts out there - some are real good and others are real bad. Watch QVC, and you'll see them pushing a 1400 psi P/W and claim that NO chemicals need to be used. I was amazed to see them showing damage to the wood as the person was demonstrating how well it cleaned w/o chemicals.

Finally found a local distributor for V-Seal (V-101) and would like to try the product I know the specs call out 150-200 sq ft per gallon application rate - can someone tell me what the actual application rate is on concrete (per your experience). I normally use Prosoco Weather Seal SL40 It runs about $112 plus tax per 5 gallons (from my supplier). It's 40% silane content - specs say 125-175 sq ft per gallon. Actuals: 200 sq ft per gallon on smooth and 150 sq ft per gallon on very rough concrete. It's a 1 coat sealer that penetrates 3/8" No film and non-yellowing Thanks for your help in advance!

dk34, I'm not doubting what you are saying but when I talked to the product tech at Diedrich, he said he would not recommend that but said the 101 Restoration is the product that would do the job for me. The 101 contains Hydrofluoric acid which scares the you know what out of me because you may not feel the pain for 24-48 hrs later and the pain can be very disproportionate to the size of the burn (small burn spot, severe pain). In the Prosoco line EK Restoration Cleaner (jell) works well (rather pricey at $131 per 5 gallons) but is safer to handle as it contains ammonium bifluoride and the Light Duty Restoration Cleaner (also a jell, but contains less than 1% hydrofluoric acid). I was wondering if anyone has had success on oxidized paint stains on brick with: HD-80 EFC-38 Citralic Acid or another product????

Thanks Greg - good info. I'll definitely weigh your info before I give him the estimate on Monday.