Who Carries...???

[Who Carries...???]

Dale,

"They stamp the 9" circle at the same time they stamp the center."

That is the most efficient and cost effective manufacturing process and guarantees that the core is concentric to the outside diameter. Having a core punched by the manufacturer is also the least amount of work for the end user.

You can add the core after the fact, but it adds time and money to the cost. With a fixture, you can control the concentricity issue.

You can cut the material with shears or "X" the area of the core, but that is not a long term solution.

[Who Carries...???]

Reed,

The material is a Non-Woven Nylon/Polyester Fiber.

Material manufacturers are not difficult to find, but I wouldn't be open (at this point) to discuss and share details that may harm the work Beth or I have done (separately) in trying to establish a primary or back-up source of suppliers. It wouldn't be fair for one person to pay for the tooling and have others reap the benefits without compensation - this is one reason for a primary and secondary supplier. My thought is that Greg had an exclusive arrangement and it sounded like the relationship broke down.

I think it will take in excess of $10K (most likely above $15K) to establish a solid relationship with a supplier that will provide on-demand supply of the product at reasonable rates. It would take a couple of years to recoup the initial investment.

There are several options on approaching the supply/demand issue - one may be of a lower initial investment, but higher price to the customer. There are others that are a bit more complex in structure, but achievable.

I'll say that the key is not finding the material, but getting someone to make the parts exactly as needed - this is a SPECIAL ORDER item.

If Greg's source is still willing to make it on-demand, small quantity runs and at reasonable rates, I'm sure we are going to have pads available soon.

[Who Carries...???]

Beth,

There is someone out there.

Reed,

3M is one of about 6 companies that makes the pad material.

The issue is in tooling for the core and quantities to make.

Most use rolling cutting dies and a new die insert (if they do not have it, can cost upwards of $5000). 10,000 pad is a quantity run of less than a half day (it should be less than 1 hour, knowing the converting process).

The larger a company, the more difficult it is to get to anyone who can make decisions and get you fast answers.

I've talked to countless people at different companies and their distributors with a great deal of frustration due to their lack of response or interest. It's amazing how you can talk face to face with someone and tell them what you need, then when you talk to them 2 weeks later they still have not done anything. I talked to one person no less than 4 times before he actually made a call.

I've gone up the ladder even and the managers seem lackadaisical. (Fire them all.) Throwing money at them doesn't help as either they are hourly or salaried. Find the person that works on commission and you get better answers.

[Food For Thought!]

For those of you who watch what you eat...Here's the final word on nutrition and health, and it's a relief to know the truth after all those conflicting medical studies:

1. The Japanese eat very little fat and suffer fewer heart attacks than the Canadians, British or Americans.

2. The Mexicans eat a lot of fat and also suffer fewer heart attacks than the Canadians, British or Americans.

3. The Japanese drink very little red wine and suffer fewer heart attacks than the Canadians, British or Americans.

4. The Italians drink excessive amounts of red wine and also suffer fewer heart attacks than the Canadians, British or Americans.

5. The Germans drink a lot of beer and eat lots of sausages and fats and suffer fewer heart attacks than the Canadians, British or Americans.

6.Ukrainians drink a lot of vodka, eat a lot of perogies, cabbage rolls and suffer fewer heart attacks than the Canadians, British or Americans.

CONCLUSION: Eat and drink what you like. Speaking English is apparently what kills you.

[Who Carries...???]

I'm also working on several sources. I started looking into it for the same reason everyone else is. Greg got us hooked and then he forgot about us. After 3 months, I gave up on my order.

Even if he starts selling it again, I think there is a need for a second and maybe a third source. If he doesn't sell it, then there is a need for at least 2 sources to carry it. I think it only makes good business sense (from the consumer standpoint, anyway).

The problem is the core diameter is special (industry standard for the pad is 2-3/4"). The 5/8" core diameter requires a tooling charge, a tooling change and a special run, every time you order.

There are other ways to add the core hole, but if you are not working off a production line, the process is slow and therefore the cost goes up quickly. Adding the holes after the fact, is not the most cost effective way to go.

The larger the order, the easier it is to get - once you get thru to the source. People are not real interested in talking about special runs unless you are talking about "X" number of pads at a time.

The other problem is breaking into their production runs when they are busy - you are at their mercy for delivery, so you need to have a good feel for how much you'll sell in a season. If you have to order at the end of the season, you don't have customers to buy them all and you have many thousand $$ worth of pads sitting in inventory or no inventory for the customer to purchase.

The profit margins are not very much, for that much money being tied up, and if the product is sitting on the shelf.

I have set aside funds to become a primary or secondary source.

[Law Suits]

GUNN-Man,

With all the choices out there, being right doesn't always get you the money you deserve. I usually like the path that makes me work the least to collect the already earned money (call me lazy).

Fortunately the IRS recognizes that most businesses have dealings with less than honorable cutomers and therefore allow you to deduct "Bad Debt" on your federal income taxes. Make sure you take the deduction for 2003. The year you get the money, you can add it as income.

[Licensing]

Jon,

"The only reason they have laws are for people to break them so they can be fined. Hence TAXED."

This statement is probably more true today than it was 25-30 years ago. We've so lost the meaning of what laws were for.

[Licensing]

I don't care for the size and organization of the IRS and the support systems associated with it myself, however, I do not see it disappearing as there are too many people profiting from it.

Without a long dissertation on my part, I understand product taxation - I just don't believe higher sales taxes (especially to the higher tax rates of 23-24%) would benefit the lower income level people, since their burden would increase and they are already not paying much if any income tax. Also, most products already have sales tax in addition to the income taxes, as certain communities (because of their size) can not sustain existance or growth without it. Having said that, I am also against our income tax system the way it is, but I visualize it differently.

I am by NO means advocating a union for P/W's.

I'm NOT in favor of unions myself (however I do recognize their place in history and the fact that they did help against greedy and un-caring employers).

I am also NOT in favor of systems that rely solely on government licensing and control of every move and every breath we take.

Neither Socialism or Communism works very well and I just see us heading away from Democracy, the more we allow government controls in lieu of "self control". What I am supporting is Non-Unionized organization(s) that would benefit this trade. I see this as a voluntary contribution that would not benefit specific individuals per say, but the entire trade.

I also believe that if a community creates a law that requires all business to have licensing, than it is that community's responsibility to help the businesses that obey the laws and punish the ones that do not. Businesses should have to show their operating licenses to bid on work. (Maybe even to the extent where the consumer should be fined for using non-licensed contractors.)

Similarly, I think there should be more crackdown on businesses that use illegal labor or that pay employees under the table or avoid taxes, workers comp., etc.

These businesses help promote OUR high taxes and low wages in lieu of higher profits in the owners pockets.

In otherwords, I don't believe we need more laws, bat rather, need better enforcement of the ones that are already in place.

[Licensing]

I agree with reducing the bad seeds, I'm just not sure additional laws and regulations are the optimum way to approach it. After all, there are too many other approaches that are available.

Off the top of my head, these are some areas I would address before creating more laws and initiating cost barriers:

Contractor education,

Customer education, (increasing customer access to BB's, improving BB quality, National advertising)

Generating additional customer referrals such as: Amy's List,

Improving PW association

Improving manufacturer's product quality,

Consumer report for contractor products

Getting the manufacturers to increase consumer education

Reducing Workman's comp. costs

Reducing Liability Insurance costs

Reducing and simplifying small business taxes.

[Licensing]

Call me a pessimist but I don't think licensing would weed out the bad seeds or raise the quality bar enough to justify the negatives - there are many bad doctors, nurses, lawyers, financial advisers, brokers and car mechanics out there. (Need I continue?) It may, however, raise the financial bar - which would be enough good news for some of the advocates of licensing.

You see, the problem I see with licensing is that the testing would most likely be very week and overpriced and as Jon said, unless nationally administered, be inconsistent (lawyers and doctors require testing by state - I can't see P/W's). I can't see it having any more validity than being a Flood or Wolman's certified deck specialist. And ...you could still have many non-licensed part timers out there.

The $500 amount doesn't apply in every state (only special states that already overburden almost all small business owners). Go Arnold!

[Licensing]

Jon,

I agree, licensing or certification for P/W's would be a waste all around.

It would be nice if sales taxes were quarterly - they are monthly if you collect over $200 in 6 months. Paid twice per year if under $200.

I spend thousands of $ a year on materials that I can be exempt from paying taxes on to my supplier. (We have many jobs where materials alone are in excess of $500.) If I didn't file exempt on these, I would double pay sales tax on this portion.

...I only need one set of books.

Services were exempt from labor sales tax for a long time in Ohio, (only having to pay sales tax on materials).

Some services are still exempt, but they are fewer every month.

I'm afraid income taxes may never disappear as there are too many jobs at risk of disappearing along with it (such as the IRS and all their employees, tax attorneys and all their employees, CPA's and..., etc., etc.).

[Licensing]

(I understand these vary by state, county and city.)

My P/W business is set up in Ohio as LLC (Limited Liability Company) and is filed under the states provisions and administration. This registers the company and keeps anyone else from using the company name I registered. LLC is shown on all company advertising and documents.

In addition, the county requires a business license, regardless of a business having a store front or being operated out of your home. (Some businesses are not allowed to be run out of your home based on county or city zoning ordinances). Sales taxes are administered by the state, but the final % are arrived at by each county. The state determines what business should collect taxes on services.

Just as an example, in Ohio I collect sales tax on materials and service on all work my company performs (per state laws).

I charge Sales & Use Taxes per county where the work is performed. Ohio has 89 counties and the sales tax varies from 6.5 to 7.5% per county. They require that I collect, track and file these sales taxes. I send the state all monies collected and they disburse it to the counties that I collected from.

RyanH, you say:

"The only thing I charge for is my "service," meaning I don't factor the cost of the materials into the job when I give an estimate, much like you wouldn't factor the cost of the paper on which your invoice is printed into your overall cost to your customers."

Every expense of my business (including the paper the invoices are printed on) are factored into the hourly rate or total estimate I present to my customer to arrive at the net income I wish to have at the end of the year. It's a function of doing business.

Not all states have income taxes (such as Florida, Nevada and Alaska), as they generate sufficient income from tourism, gambling and in the case of Alaska oil. Most states do not have these luxuries and do not wish to further burden their residents with high taxes on food products. The low income groups do not pay very much if any income tax and also pay no taxes on food products (other that what is consumed in a restaurant).

[Licensing]

RyanH,

I'm not sure I understand your reasoning behind your post:

"the city wants a business license. From what I have learned in talking to others, this is purely a tax-related requirement. The city wants to be able to tax a business on all of its assets and functions, and licensing is an easy way to track businesses....

...I will not get licensed unless I see some personal benefit to it."

If you don't have a business license, you are not considered a legitimate business by at least your city, maybe county?, and maybe state? (The feds don't care as long as you are paying them your fair share of taxes.) If you are not paying taxes, you could be fined and also accumulate interest that you would be personally responsible for.

Is pressure washing a texable service in your state? If it is, are you collecting taxes on your work?

Are you paying sales taxes on the products that you purchase and apply on your customers homes? Usually, even if service is not taxable, materials are (at least in select states).

If you do deck staining work for example, you would have to collect and pay taxes at least on materials used such as the stain (even if it wasn't required on labor.) As a business, you would be allowed to be exempt from paying sales tax when you purchase your stain, but you would collect it from the customer, and pay it to your state/county. This is how your city/county has money to operate and bring you some of their services.

[Faith vs. Fact (Creation vs. Evolution)]

John T.,

Thanks for starting this thread.

Consider it hokey-pokey, but I think there was destiny involved.

I thought you had some good insight from perspectives of religion(s) but don't let that cloud the issue of faith.

As long as you are clear on faith, what religion, if any is not significant. I can understand how some religions can muddy up the water and I could discuss in length specifics of a couple of religions that exemplify their distorted behavior. If you study your bible, I think the distortions become very clear, however, that does not change the words or if you prefer, the intent of GOD. There are some religions within the Christian faith that are truer to the words of GOD, but I don't know if there is a thing as a perfect interpretation unless you keep searching - GOD's words even tell you that.

Keep the faith and Godspeed!

[Faith vs. Fact (Creation vs. Evolution)]

Folks,

I always thought that anyone could jump in at any time with any thoughts as this format allows that better than if you were trying to talk sitting around a table.

I also thought that anyone not interested would just simply avoid this thread rather then tell us to shut up. ;) The last person standing or talking will hopefully realize that there is no one around listening to him/her before too long (same as on any other thread). :down

Sounded to me like Scott wanted to get in on the fun.

I'm willing to stick around... :D

[Faith vs. Fact (Creation vs. Evolution)]

Dale,

No insult intended in my post. I was offering circumstantial evidence (NOT FACTS) - you seem to keep saying I'm offering ideas as facts when I keep saying I'm offering evidence that can lead people to a conclusion. I have already come to my conclusions, I don't need convincing in case of evolution or creation. (I'll say once again that I agree there is also evolution going on but not anywhere near as drastic as single cell to man.)

"My reference to facts being relevant was the assumption that left handed proteins or whatever show "creator"..thats all."

I was not offering a conclusion, but rather one piece of evidence in a series of many that may or may not help somene draw a conclusion.

As for the length of posts: I'll keep it short if you will. If we are both defending points or offering evidence, it's hard to respond to one when there are 6 or 7 other items to discuss.

"So what am I saying?..the same thing I've said all along..I don't think either side has all the answers, and I think more information is needed to arrive at a explaination."

I guess my next question here is: Do you think we can offer any information, evidence or any comment you have not already heard that will help YOU arrive at an explaination?

I'm afraid if I waited for science to prove either case or offer another option 100% or to fully explain everything, I could never make a decision not just on this, but anything else.

You need some feeling, and faith!

- Look into the eyes of a baby and repeat: You are a product of evolution from a single cell.

- Look at animals and repeat: You are a product of evolution from a single cell.

- Think out how bees polinate trees and plants and repeat: You are a product of evolution from a single cell.

- Ask yourself why the birth cycle has not evolved (or shortened if you ask a woman) and repeat: You are a product of evolution from a single cell.

- Why is the desire for *** different between humans and animals and repeat: You are a product of evolution from a single cell.

- Why can humans talk, but no animals can and repeat: You are a product of evolution from a single cell.

I'm not offering any of this as evidence (YET)!

[Faith vs. Fact (Creation vs. Evolution)]

Scott,

As far as I'm concerned, your opinion counts for as much as anyone else's in this discussion.

Dale may not necessarily agree, but if you don't present your thoughts, how do we know we didn't exclude something of importance.

Besides, you're not as mean as you look, ...I'm sure you can take criticism.

Take a couple of aspirins and jump in - the water is nice!

[Faith vs. Fact (Creation vs. Evolution)]

Dale,

OK, so your position is that I made up the information on the protein molecule chain, or at least that I used a very unreliable source.

I encourage you to search the latest scientific data available on this subject.

If I may respond to your quoted statement:

"Again the premise is being made that the facts being presented are not only true .but relevant....sweeping statements like "ALL life consists of"....and then no doubt a barrage of M.E.G.O. (.My Eyes Glaze Over) information. Paul, Who's your source..hopefully not Gish.

- Once again, I'll say that I presented this as circumstantial evidence, which I thought you were in acceptance of.

- Without knowing and hearing all my arguments, you are willing to dismiss all of it as irrelevant.

...and you still want to state that you do not have a predetermined disposition? ...that you are willing to listen with an open mind?

- Have you already dismissed all scientific evidence that points toward creation (by labelling it M.E.G.O)?

- Sounds like the only FACT that I could provide you with would be to present you GOD or his phone number or would the proof of devil be a fact to the existance of GOD?

I'm assuming this statement refers to Creation and Evolution:

"This may be a condition that actually supports a view showing the limits of logic....but my position has aways been its not "either"..."or"..."

So what are you saying?

You believe in creation and evolution?

You doubt creation and evolution?

When I had asked you previously if you offered another option, you said: "Do I have an alternative to evolution/creation? No..like I stated I think there are holes in both..but when someone suggests the the case IS settled..all learning stops."

I don't understand why learning would have to stop if the issue of creation and evolution is settled?

Would that then leave me to be the only person in the world willing to learn?

I do not think that "Believers" in general seek knowledge because there are non-believers but rather because there is desire to know the unknown (and of course vice versa). GOD encourages discovery and learning. All He asks for is faith and to follow his guidelenes. GOD also offers us choices.

What does evolution offer?

We were accidentally created and then we die for ever. There is no hope.

Evidence #000.002

Actually, although he believes that he is on the right track, Prigogine does not claim he has solved the problem of the origin of life or the origin of complex biological organizations. In a book he co-authored in 1977, the year he won the Nobel Prize, Prigogine says:

`There seems to be no doubt that dissipative structures play an

essential role in the function of living systems as we see them today. What was the role of dissipative structures in evolution? It is very tempting to speculate that prebiotic evolution corresponds essentially to a succession of instabilities leading to an increasing level of complexity.' (Nicolis G. & Prigogine I., "Self-Organization in Non-equilibrium Systems", 1977, p12).

Gish does have memorable quotes, one of which refers to Prigogine.

"What is the answer that Nicolis and Prigogine give to their question, `What was the role of dissipative structures in evolution?'-It is very tempting to speculate! No doubt it was tempting for Nicolis and Prigogine to speculate about such matters, but since when have tempting speculations become scientific solutions to an extremely vexing and complex problem?" (Gish D.T., "Creation Scientists Answer Their Critics", 1993, p187)

I suppose you also (with an open mind) dismiss everything from Berlinski. If I may also quote Berlinski:

"When Ilya Prigogine won a Nobel Prize for his work in

thermodynamics, the reaction among mathematicians was

thankfulness that no one in a position to disburse funds, or anyone else for that matter, had any idea of what he was talking about." (Berlinski D., "From Bad to Worse", "Black Mischief: Language, Life, Logic, Luck", 1988, p59)

So you are not willing to accept or discuss "specified complexity" as it relates to human and animal life? So in essence are you saying that you have dismissed all scientific evidence that pertains to creation??

Evidence #000.003

The argument being that in living organisms and manufactured products both exhibit the property of ORGANIZATION/SPECIFIED COMPLEXITY (vs. random by chance occurance supported by evolution). Organized / specified complexity would therefore indicate a "blueprint" for life.

"The blueprint for an organism's organization and metabolism are

contained within the genes, the hereditary factors that are passed on when an organism reproduces. In all organisms, the genes are composed of the complex chemical DNA, which can be copied so that all the cells of a multicellular organism, including sperm and eggs, receive a copy." (Mader S.S., "Biology", 1990, p5)

"Nucleic acids are enormous molecules that store the hereditary

blueprints for the synthesis of proteins." (Wilson E.O., et al., "Life on Earth", 1973, p47)

"The nucleic acids are, of course, the hereditary material. They

contain the blueprint for the organism which is passed from parent to daughter cells. DNA duplicates during replication, to provide a blueprint copy for each daughter. The design of DNA, with its two complementary chains, makes this event possible." (Shapiro R., "Origins: A Skeptic's Guide to the Origin of Life", 1986, pp133-134)"

Evidence #000.004

There is no evidence that a "protein" can "arise" "through random variations". Yockey has calculated the minimum number of amino acids that could arise by chance in a billion years as only 49 amino acids long, which is much too short to code for a living system: "Taking into account only the effect of the racemic mixture the longest genome which could be expected with 95% confidence in 10^9 years corresponds to only 49 amino acid residues. This is much too short to code a living system so evolution to higher forms could not get started." (Yockey H.P., "A Calculation of the Probability of Spontaneous Biogenesis by Information Theory," Journal of Theoretical Biology, 67, 1977, p377)

Evidence #000.005

"Cairns-Smith also describes the `messages' contained in the genetic information stored in the "library" of each cell's DNA, which are transcribed and translated to direct the synthesis of proteins. His language is entirely typical of others who write about this subject:

practically all stress the appearance of design and purpose, the

immense complexity of the simplest cell, and the apparent need for many complex components to work together to sustain life. Everyone uses the vocabulary of intelligent communication to describe protein synthesis: messages, programmed instructions, languages, information, coding and decoding, libraries. Why not consider the possibility that life is what it so evidently seems to be, the product of creative intelligence?" (Johnson P.E., "Darwin on Trial", 1993,

p112).

Evidence #000.006

DNA has specified complexity (as acknowledged by evolutionists Dawkins, Orgel and Crick)

In my opinion:

"Specified complexity", namely a human language message, is the product of intelligent design;

Therefore the probability that DNA is the product of "Intelligent

Design" is very, very high.

"Intelligent Design" points toward a creator and away from evolution.

I have other types of circumstantial evidence to submit if there is an interest.

[Your Favorite House Wash Brew]

Envirospecs Limonene works well

Sun Brite's All-Brite also provides good results.

Hotsy's Ripper I works but is extremely expensive in comparison to others. As I understand, Ripper I is more cost effective for fleet cleaning from what they say.

[Faith vs. Fact (Creation vs. Evolution)]

Dale,

Before I argue Prigogene and his theory as it relates to evolution, can you respond to my earlier statement below, as I will now admit as evidence. For the sake of avoiding a side argument/discussion, I will change the labeling from Fact #3 to Evidence #000.001

Evidence #000.001 Against Evolution:

"Lets address the unlikely probability that a living cell would by random process be formed. ...(All life consists of only left-handed protein molecule chains.) The smallest living thing that could duplicates itself would require 239 of these protein molecules. What are the chances that the first protein molecule would form all their amino acids into left handed chains? (The minimum number of amino acids in a protein is 410.) But then, even if this occurred in one protein, it would have to be repeated again 238 times in the other protein molecules.

Chances of this occurring are 1:10 to the 29,345 th power.

That's a 1 followed by 29,345 zeroes. Flip a coin that many times and see if it will come up as tail that many times in a row."

[Faith vs. Fact (Creation vs. Evolution)]

" I can't say that religion by itself has proven the existence of it (a creator) because belief is different for everyone".....

You seamlessly changed the focus from one of "proof"..to "belief"..and then, as I suggested in my past post, leave the burden of proof in the hands of someone with a different view..this makes little sense..

Let me see if I can explain what I meant:

Proof is only proof if someone is willing to believe it.

The fact that it's true or not has nothing to do with a person believing it.

Can I prove that man has landed on the moon?

No, personally I can't. But I can argue it.

Are there people that believe that man has not stepped on the moon?

Yes there a lot of them. Check around ... there are probably a few on this BB.

Is there proof?

I believe there are moon rocks, but the people that choose not to believe, will have their own explanation.

How can I argue for it's truth? Thru circumstantial evidence.

[Faith vs. Fact (Creation vs. Evolution)]

Dale,

The quotes you use "I don't believe in science" and "circumstantial evidence was not a valid method to prove things by"...are not contained in my post...THAT takes things out of context.

You are correct and I didn't intend on making it look like a quote from you but to highlight the two statements. I can see they didn't come out that way.

But you did post: "You claim the shortcomings of science .....but use it as proof when it suits you ....i.e. useing the law of thermal dynamics...yet seem to claim that it is me useing circumstantial evidence to state my view...You're not?? fill me in please!"

This should make my statement more accurate:

I never said I don't believe in science and I never said that circumstantial evidence was not a valid method to prove things by. On the contrary, you have somehow twisted things out of context. I believe in science, but science has failed and in many cases can be circumstantially proven to be in error, especially when it comes to evolution. And when I say evolution, I don't mean minute changes or man's growth from an embrio to an old man but the evolving of a single cell to a thinking, capable of talking human being.

[Faith vs. Fact (Creation vs. Evolution)]

There is nothing I can "say" that will "prove to you" that "GOD" exists.

"You claim the shortcomings of science .....but use it as proof when it suits you ....i.e. useing the law of thermal dynamics...yet seem to claim that it is me useing circumstantial evidence to state my view...You're not?? fill me in please!"

I never said "I don't believe in science" and I never said that "circumstantial evidence was not a valid method to prove things by". On the contrary, you have somehow twisted things out of context. I believe in science, but science has failed and in many cases can be circumstantially proven to be in error, especially when it comes to evolution. And when I say evolution, I don't mean minute changes or man's growth from an embrio to an old man but the evolving of a single cell to a thinking, capable of talking human being.

If GOD appeared to "you", would you believe it, or would you call it a holucination? (I'm not looking for an answer - I can guess your arguments.)

About your posts being from you or not:

My point was that you couldn't prove "factually" that all of "your" previous posts were written by "you". However, it could be proven circumstantially as there are many ways to do that (this would be considered circumstantial evidence). If the circumstantial evidence is strong enough, we will believe it without having to go through extraordinary measures, all of which could still be challanged if someone wanted to challange it.

"Claiming there's proof of a creator is..extaordinary claims require extraordinary proof...would you agree?"

For a lot of people that is true, for some, it is not.

Again I will state that it has been proven to me that there is one GOD. There is enough evidence for ME, as I have spent many, many years over my life time reading and watching programs, searching and developing a relationship with GOD. GOD has (directly or indirectly) guided me enough to make me feel good about what I believe in. ...and my faith in GOD is continually strengthened.

Here is a little ditty that some may appreciate:

Wally had started to develop a relationship with GOD and thru many conversations, GOD had assured him that whenever he was in trouble, he would save him.

One year, there was a flood, and it was devestating. The water was rising and certainly death would come if Wally didn't leave his home. As the water was rising, Wally went to his 2nd story balcony and waited to be saved. A man on a raft floated by and hollered to Wally "Come, jump on the raft so we can go to safety." To which Wally replied, "Go on, GOD is coming to save me!"

The flood was rising and Wally had to move to the roof of his home for safety. Along came a boat with a man and a dog in it. The man shouted to Wally "Come, jump into the boat so we can get to safety." To which Wally replied, "Just go on, GOD is coming to save me!"

The flood was still rising and Wally was now on the top of the chimney hanging on. From out of nowhere, a helicopter appeared and someone yelled from within. "Grab the rope and climb in for surely you will die if you don't." To which Wally replied, "Go on, GOD is coming to save me!"

Upon entering heaven, Wally demanded to know from GOD why he let him down and why he didn't come to save him.

to which GOD said, "But I sent you raft, a boat and a helicopter!"

"....religion hasn't proven the existence of a creator....would you agree?...."

I can't say if religion by itself has proven it, because belief is different for everyone. For some, religion has proof, while for others, all the PROOF in the world will NOT be enough (and this has been predicted and has been proven). I have offered many things in my previous posts as evidence, so you can take those and continue your OWN search to prove to yourself.

You state: "if you do we have a "null start"..all preconcieved notions are off the table and the the case for both views starts with rebuilding the case for each view based in the facts..if this is done it seems like evolution has an edge."

If we have a "null start", how can evolution have an edge?

To quote your words: "There stills seem to be convoluted reasoning going on..maybe I'm wrong but thats the way it seems."

You state: "Paul, I haven't made up my mind and have stated this many times in my previous posts.....but it seems to me that you have...the reasonings are just becoming too complacated and convoluted in my opinion."

Dale, you caught me, I think! It is true that I have made up my mind. As I said I have spent over 30 years examining, asking, probing, filtering and challanging. I've read hundreds of books, watched many documentaries, listened to many views and challanges. Maybe it's been 40 years or close to 50 years - I can't honestly recall when the first time I asked about GOD.

As may be obvious from the above paragraph, "Blind Faith" is not the reason that I believe in GOD. It would have been great if I had "Blind Faith", as my life would have been much less complicated.

Here is some of my logic:

When you argue FOR evolution, you are NOT searching for creation and GOD, but are searching to strengthen your belief in evolution.

The thought process of "If you are not with me, you are against me!" applies as follows in this analogy:

In the beginning of WWII, many countries wanted to stay neutral (including the US). At this point the statement in quotes is not very logical and has very little merit for most, except those that are directly affected. The statement applies, but applies to a smaller circle of people.

As Hitler exposed his evilness, the statement in quotes became more logical and grew with momentum to a larger group of people.

When the autracities were exposed, the quoted statement had

moved to its most strength and widest circulation. However, the statement had never changed its meaning to the people that were always directly involved. In otherword, it said: "I'm asking for help because I'm weak agains my opponent, and if you don't come and help me, you will be against me, as I shall perrish."

If the above analogy doesn't make sense to you, please don't blame religion for it, but assume that I did not do a very good job of communicating my thoughts and feelings.

Are you offering another option or solution to Creation and Evolution?

Or could you say that if evolution can be disproved than Creation is the only other option?

What do you think will happen to you when you die?

What do you hope will happen to you when you die?

I will once again say that:

There is more benefit to YOU for finding proof then for you to reject it without a thorough search. After all, if you believe and you are wrong, what's the worst that can happen?

But if you refuse to search and refuse to believe and you are wrong...

I DO NOT need to PROVE to anyone that GOD exists. However, if I can help someone find GOD, it helps me to know that another soul has a chance to have an everlasting relationship with GOD. For we are our brother's keepers.

Now,

If we want to continue these discussions, I would suggest that we keep each post to one or two specific thoughts. Some of the questions and re-examinations are getting complex and time consuming. I am willing to devote some time, but not as much as this post required. And I'm sure most of you are tired of reading my lengthy thoughts.

[Faith vs. Fact (Creation vs. Evolution)]

John,

GOD does not tell you to have "Blind Faith" but he does say to have "Faith in Him". He also does not tell you that you shouldn't question religion but contrary is His direction that you should explore, question and challange. The more you question, the more will come to you, but you should also have some faith and ask for guidance.

You will find answers, as long as you keep searching.

Godspeed!

[Faith vs. Fact (Creation vs. Evolution)]

We have no way of knowing if it's Dale typing or not.

It could be his sister, mother, brother or anyone else.

Can Dale prove to me that he typed all the messages?

Can Dale prove to me that no other person has access to his computer?

There is no way he could ever prove it to me. He has no facts to prove it.

Science has not proven the evolution of man from a single cell or even from ape to present day form. They admit themselves that many of their theories are in faith that someday the gaps that are missing will be filled. But for now it's only their faith.

Do you believe in the single cell to present man evolution theory?

I have a feeling that you have already made up your mind and convicted the accused and now you want us to prove him innocent. That is how I view your perspective. There is nothing unusual about this approach, and the approach by itself doesn't make you a bad person. Are you willing to accept circumstantial evidence? (just as the courts of any state would.)

What I can suggest to you is to start or continue reading the Bible, Torah and Qur'an. I have many, many other books I can recommend, along with several television/video documentaries.

If you want proof, YOU should start the search for it yourself. No one can convince you, as you must convince yourself.

There is more benefit to YOU for finding proof then for you to reject it without a thorough search. After all, if you believe and you are wrong, what's the worst that can happen?

But if you refuse to search and refuse to believe and you are wrong...

As any judge would say: Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

There are a lot of things that are not in the 3 major books I named, but are in other documents that help to validate a lot of things in these books. Many different prophets from different areas, occupations and backgrounds have received the messages of GOD and they wrote them down for future generations. They all wrote very similar stories but from different perspectives. All of these prophets have been scrutinized for hundreds of years for their motives, and their work has been scrutinized. Much information is available in many formats.

- Mohammed's Qur'an exists in his original writing and is preserved for all mankind to scrutinize. One of the things that stands out in it to me is the passages about galaxies of the universe and how it conveys the message of the "Big Bang".

I don't think science and astronomy was far enough along to talk of the "Big Bang".

- In the Old Testament, one story that stands out in my mind is the direction GOD provides man to not deffecate within his camps, but gives very specific directions on what to do. This story also appears in the Torah.

- The Qur'an also has the story of Mary and Jesus, and the virgin birth of Jesus. Why would one religion validate another and why would one religion admit that the Jew's GOD and the GOD of Christians is the same as theirs? At least 3 major religions with the same GOD. Does it sound like a conspiracy? Or does it sound like circumstantial evidence.

- 003.160 If Allah helps you, none can overcome you: If He forsakes you, who is there, after that, that can help you? in Allah, then, Let believers put their trust.

- 003.177 Those who purchase disbelief at the price of faith harm Allah not at all, but theirs will be a painful doom.

Lets talk about evolution:

Fact #1 Evolution runs contrary to the Second Law of Thermodynamics which describes the universe as a wound-up clock which is slowly winding down. (Do we agree so far?) Instead, evolution has all life being built up from the simple to the most complex.

Fact #2: A builder might expose brick, sand, nail, paint, wires, wood and other building materials to heat and energy of the sun and to the refreshing rains, but these objects would never by themselves unite and form a house! (Do you believe it could happen?)

Fact #3: Lets address the unlikely probability that a living cell would by random process be formed. (Put your hat on and get out your calculators because we are going for a ride.) All life consists of only left-handed protein molecule chains. The smallest living thing that could duplicates itself would require 239 of these protein molecules. What are the chances that the first protein molecule would form all their amino acids into left handed chains? (The minimum number of amino acids in a protein is 410.) But then, even if this occurred in one protein, it would have to be repeated again 238 times in the other protein molecules.

Chances of this occurring are 1:10 to the 29,345 th power.

That's a 1 followed by 29,345 zeroes. Flip a coin that many times and see if it will come up as tail that many times in a row.

In my next post, lets put science to the test and talk about all the holes in how they calculate the age of the world and man.