Cedar Siding Strip Job

[tidyjet 14]

I don't get to do cedar to much. This one I'm just not sure about.

It's for a contractor who wants whatever is on the cedar siding stripped. They're applying a new finish. There's a lot of blackening where whatever was on there is complete UV'd away.

Bleach or percarb?

I'm concerned especially around the windows whose trim is alum clad. Will these have to be masked before trying to strip this? Also the non-uv'd areas eg. in and around the porches and underneath where the shutters were - the finish is pretty heavy whatever it is.

The running feet around the whole house is 370'. I really don't have a clue as to how long this will take me nor footage calculations.

Recommendations on how to tackle this would be appreciated.

[tidyjet 14]

I was thinking I'd tackle this with percarb mixed very hot with a citric acid neutralizer.

How do you calculate running ft on a house like this?

[seymore 90]

Paul,

The easiest way to decide what to clean it with is to do a test spot.

If you use a sodium hydroxide stripper you might want to protect the window frames cause if mixed to strong it can peel the paint off the windows.

I base cleaning a job like this at an hourly figure and not on sqft.That's a pretty big house and $1000-1500 to clean would sound good to me.

What new finish are they going to use? What's on it now?

[tidyjet 14]

I can't tell what's on there now. They're going to be applying some sort of semi-transparent, what I'm not sure

[Dale 16]

That sounds way to cheap to me for a strip/neutralize on a house like that. There are a few awkward spots to access.

[Dale 16]

Well, maybe not..I've never just cleaned a job and had someone else stain it so I was thinking about it wrong.

[Russell Cissell 65]

Paul

This may be more information than you asked for, but I think it may help some of the contractors out there who shy away from cedar home restoration because they are not sure how to estimate or bid the work. I'm not saying this is the only correct answer. I'm not even saying this is how I would do it, in fact I am often guilty of using the same "WAG" method that Seymore used. What I am going to share is the most accurate method for maximizing your profitability.

The first thing you will do it determine the square footage of all of the surfaces you are going to clean. Simply look at each wall and break it down into rectangles and triangles. Use the formula for determining the square footage of each. Length x Height (L x H) for the rectangles and Length x Height x 0.5 (1/2 L x H) for the triangles. Once you have done that for each wall section you will have the total square footage of the home.

Remember to measure each surface that you intend to clean. This should include any support columns, soffit and facia and most importantly any wood decks. It is easy to forget to measure a deck causing you to under bid by several hundred dollars.

Once you have your total square footage you will want to do a test patch. This will not only help you determine what product to use it will allow you to estimate the dwell time required. Choose a spot that will be most difficult to restore. In this case I would choose a spot on the wall beneath the overhang in image David_Quote-001.jpg. You may want to do more than one test spot.

Next you have to determine how many square feet you will be able to restore per hour. Take into consideration any obstacles that may slow you down, time to set up and move ladders or scaffolding and any time you will spend masking. This is difficult to do when you are new so you should always keep track of how long each job takes and what the total square footage was so that you can begin to calculate averages.

If I were writing an estimate for this job it would look something like this. Please keep in mind I am estimating the total square footage based on pictures and you one figure of 370' for the perimeter of the house.

Total Square Footage 3,600 square feet

Production average 300 square feet per hour

Total Hours 12

Materials

EFC-38 @ 200 sq. feet per gallon 18 gallons (roughly $45.00)

Citralic Brightener 18 gallons (roughly $25.00)

Now I know that it is going to take 12 hours to do the work and it is going to take about $70.00 worth of materials.

Now the final step is to bid the job. There are as many ways to bid a job as there are jobs to bid. I am going to show you three way to bid this same job.

First lets look at Seymore's WAG method. Seymore looked at this house AND FROM EXPERIENCE was able to determine it was going to take him a day or a little more. He wants to bring in about $100.00 per hour so call that $1,200.00 then he wants the customer to pay for the materials plus the time used buying and picking up the materials or shipping costs so ($70.00) times 3 to cover the expense of obtaining material is another $210.00. Add a few bucks for gas and bid it at $1,500.00.

WAG stands for Wild ^$$ Guess which is exactly what it would be if you tried to use this method on your first job. While this is a fairly safe method for someone who has been in the business for a while it is not for the new guy. If you look at all of the contractors who fail and go out of business, most of them WAGGED themselves out of business.

The next method is refered to as Time and Materials we know that you have accurately determined the time required to do the job and you know what the material cost is going to be so you bid it based on those figures. If you decide that the hourly rate you must charge for you to be successful is $100.00 per hour then this Time and Material bid will look the same as Seymores WAG method.

(Seymore did not WAG his hourly rate at all, what he guessed about was the total square footage and how long it will take. You can only do this with lots of experience and it is still risky then.)

The third method is the Square Footage method. For this method you base the bid on a cost per square foot. For example for an easy strip like this with a failed clear sealer the figure we use is $0.60/Sq Foot. This price includes materials and labor. It is determined not by looking at one or two jobs but the data collected form over a decade of project statistics. If you take the total square footage determined to be 3,600 and multiply that times 0.60 the bid would be $2,160.00.

As you see in the first two methods the bid price was very similar. In the Square Foot bid the price is about 30% higher. This last method is by far the most accurate. It will also allow you to maximize your profitability. This is the only method that uses constants. From the time you start to the time you finish, the total square footage will remain the same. When you base the bid on time it is up to you to match the exact time you estimate it is going to take. If you work slower than you estimated you will loose money.

At $1,500.00 for just over a days work you probably won't go out of business but if you bring in over $2,100.00 in the same amount of time you will start to separate yourself from the competition and dominate your marketplace.

Now there will be contractors out there that will say that $2,100.00 is too much and no one will pay. They will say that in their area there are so many low ballers that they would be lucky to get $1,000.00 for that job. I just hope they take the time to post those thoughts so that we can touch the final stage of getting a job. . .CLOSING!

Best of Luck

[JFife 14]

Tidyjet,

Don't forget the time it takes to do all of the little things......removing window screens, taking down downspouts, removing exterior lights/sconces. What about ceilings?? They are hard to do, nasty, and tough. The thing you have going for you is that since you are only stripping, the costs are minimal and your only risk of loss is decreasing your hourly productivity. So, assume this takes you twice as long as you anticipate, then rather than make $100 pr hr, you've made $50 pr hr, and that is not bad for a learning experience, if you plan on trying to tackle more of this work in the future.

[Littlefield 65]

Also, from experience, make sure to work your way up from a percarbonate cleaner to the stripper on the tough areas. After you apply brightener, the tannins that the stripper pulls out more than the percarbonate should even right out.

Did anyone plan on doing any buffing or sanding on this job? Even with the best of methods, IE low pressure wand, careful chem usage, you still get some furring some of the time, and you don't want to be doing that for free. Keep in mind you will probably be doing some of the work off ladders, so decrease your production rates or increase your sqft rate for the high areas. Rule of thumb 20% more above 8ft, 30% more above 15 ft, etc, etc.

Reiterate Jon's comments on porch ceilings being tough, they are big time wasters and I have a separate line in my spreadsheet just for this. Try doing them last in the day, as you will get wet, and don't want to be soaking all day....

By the way...$1,982.25

Figuring 25% of the 3600sqft off of a ladder, buffing 25% if it furs up, prepping 10 windows.

It would take 2 of my old employees 2 days or about 30 hours, but I'll get it done in a day and a half.

[Palmetto Home and Deck 167]

Paul,

Is that bevel siding? I'm restoring 6 units in a cedar sided townhome complex. All of these units had the same black stuff on them that is shown in your pictures. Turns out it was actually some sort of mold and I was able to clean it off with my regular house wash mix. Some said that they looked so good after cleaning that they didn't need anything else done to them.

This job is different than yours ,though, in that these units were done in a solid color stain that looked like red mud. In this restoration these units are changing to a completely different (and much better looking) color. For this we are using a 100% arcryic solid stain so strippiing the old finish was not nessesary.

The reason I asked if your project was bevel lap siding is that from your pictures it looks like I see blue board insulation through a knot hole. Bevel lap siding is pretty thin and over time it splits very badly and knots will fall out leaving large holes in the boards. On several of these townhomes I am working on the squirles and birds have enlarged some of these knot holes and have built their nest in the wall cavities. You can actually look into these holes and see the back side of the interior sheet rock. On three of these units the cedar siding has gotton so bad I am having replacing entire walls with new siding.

Point of all this is, be sure you do a close inspection of your siding project to make sure you don't do water damage to the interior of the home while cleaning and stripping. Caulking may be in order before you begin so don't forget to figure that in.

Oh yes, Russel is right. Square footage is the way to go. I'm doing cleaning and staining by the square foot calculated just like he said and cedar replacement by the lineal board foot.

[tidyjet 14]

Thanks so much for the great replies - your experiences, admonitions, feedback and advice on my post are invaluable. I've noted all of them for future reference.

It looks like the contractor is going to have some of his guys do it. I'm going to keep an eye on this one for the results.

This is my first season and this project would have been one I would rather work my way up to.