Deck Prices so Far

[Guest rfitz]

So far this year, this is what I have found to be true,

If you go in and bid a deck at $1.50 a sq ft and that includes materials,

you better have alot of other work lined up, you wont be doing alot of

decks around here, and in my area the average home is well over

$200K and the average deck is approx 700 to 1000 sq ft,

you can preach all you want to the customer about quality, this

prepping that, etc..etc.. and bottom line is people will go with the lowest bid, they just dont see the importance of having their decks done right, they look at their deck as a liabilty not something they want to put alot of money into,

they already spent the money to build it, and they dont want to spend a whole bunch to maintain it, I would say a good average where I live is

about .80 cents a sq ft and that includes materials, so as you can see, if we do get the work at that price, the work we do will reflect the price, at least now we do give the homeowner options, A or B, quality work or cheap and quick work, we have pride, but not at the risk of losing work, and most of the time, the homeowner cant see the difference anyhow....

[Paul B. 523]

We run into the same situation about gutters being on a slope side of a house where ladders can not be used or would be very time consuming. These are areas where the gutters are 30 feet off the ground and use of an extension pole that would reach that high would be uncontrollable (a 16ft extension pole is hard to control for applying and brushing).

Having said that, we use a 24ft extension pole with the X-Jet and close-up attachment and spray it on. At times we have sprayed it on with an X-Jet in the open position (makes for a great foamer).

We use AllBrite at 1:15 to 1:20 dilution for house washing.

You have to be careful and rinse a bunch when applying around asphalt driveways as it will remove the oils from it.

If you decide to add Sodium Hydroxide to your mix, be careful and test the percentage in your mix as it will remove paint very quickly. Most cleaning solutions like Gutter Zap and Gutter shock contain only about 1% Sodium Hydroxide.

[CCHSNC 14]

any takers on the ratio for powder? I use gutter zapper from exterior it works good and there in my town so it's easy to get.

[Guest rfitz]

My Dad has a hot tub, and 1 time I tried his Super Shock, I think it was something like 40%, and it didnt work at all, not sure why, but it wouldnt even kill the smallest amount of mold ????

[Robert Ray 14]

Those are pretty good results from the paper maybe I will give it a try. What section are you in???

When the 30000 house hold coupon goes out we get about 2-5 calls per day and when the 10000 house hold goes out we get about 1-3 calls per day they both tail off after a week but pic back up when the coupon expires.

[Aplus 525]

I've found liquid pool chlorine to have varying strengths. I buy cases of 4 gallons that are in plastic disposable bottles in cardboard boxes that are labeled as 10.25%. These are sold in super stores and regional hardware chains. I can get these for around $2 to $2.25 per gallon.

The premium brands from the pool store are in the 12.25% range. However, these are sold in plastic crates and both the crate and bottles have a deposit on them. ($5), and for me, it's too big a hassle to tote crates and bottles around for the deposits. They take up too much space in my trailer, and in my garage. These are usually around $3.00 per gallon.

I like to buy liquid chlorine in smaller quantities, in order to keep the supply fresher and stronger.

My feeling is that stabilized granular chlorine has a longer shelf life than liquid chlorine.

Maybe Paul can shed wisdom on liquid vs. granular chlorine expected shelf lifes.

I would suggest that everyone conduct their own testing to determine what strength/ratio chlorine works best for them.

Many brands of housewash mixes are available. Mixed and applied correctly, most will likely give satisfactory results.

I used to use various home brew recipes containing ingrediants such as Tide, Dawn, TSP, Soda Ash etc, and never really was thrilled with the results.

I now use Emulsifier Plus, which works fantastic for me, far superior to the home brews. It works so well I haven't had the need to try other brands.

My main concern is that the detergent is compatible with chlorine. Some detergents are not.

At least 75% of the houses I wash have mildew on them, and a detergent without chlorine is not going cut it.

I wonder if a tool exists that can measure the strength (%) of chlorine? Paul......?

[ron p 500]

the problem with powder's that are not 100% active chem is the filler's. Each scoop could be diffrent. Only way to make sure it's all the same would be to use all the powder each time.

Im sure the 1 lb bag's can be used and stay close each time.

Then again you'll need to make sure it ALL desolves, each time.

My best choice would be to get a black 25 gal drum and buy the 5 gal liquid drum's. Walk out and fill my drum with their chem and give back the 5 gal drum's. One stop shopping.

p.s. in some state's carrying more then 5 gal of liquid chlorine would require you haveing a placquard.

[Paul B. 523]

Sodium Hypochlorite is in liquid form and has a shelf life of about 120 days from date of manufacture. Light, air and temperature play a large role in how quickly it loses its potency.

Always buy it from a source that has a high turnover rate and can assure you that it is FRESH. You can read the label and see where it's manufactured - if you live in Pittsburgh, you should not be using anything that's labeled "bottled or manufactured in Texas". The pool shock I use is made locally, within 15 miles of where I live. Make a habit of reading labels on containers - it's amazing what you find out.

Calcium Hypochlorite (labeled as pool shock at your pool supply store) is in granular form (it is available in liquid) and will stay FRESH as long as it is in a dry form. A packet that is sealed to keep out moisture and air will last for many years. Keeping it in a dark place will make it last even longer. Mixing it with water or allowing humidity/moisture to enter will start the deterioration or activation process.

Titration is the most accurate way of determining hypochlorite content, but is a time consuming process or requires expensive equipment. I don't know of an inexpensive tool that can tell you the hypochlorite content of bleach/chlorine/pool shock.

I suppose with an accurate digital pH tester (+/- .1 pH readout)you could find out the hypochlorite content but you would have to work in reverse and have a scale established thru titration. You would always test a specific amount of liquid (1 gallon or 1/2 gallon) and already know that a specific pH is that specific percent hypochlorite. Meaning you would have to have an established scale that tells you if the meter reads pH of 10.9, you have 7% hypochlorite content. You could not have a mixture of chemicals as this would change all readings.

Or if you had a 1 gallon container of Sodium Hypochlorite that was 12% - take a pH reading, then dilute to 1 gallon at 10% and take another pH reading, then dilute to 8% and take another pH reading (so on and so forth) to establish your own scale.

With time and money, you can accomplish almost anything!

[CCHSNC 14]

Would anyone be willing to throw out a ratio for powder? So I can use it as a starting point. I too use the emulsifier plus add a rinse agent and some liquid automotive wax I get from a local car wash.

[Paul B. 523]

Try 4 then 8 oz. of 64% Calcium Hypochlorite per gallon of water.

Calcium H. reacts slower to water than Sodium H.

In both cases it's not indicated on my containers of Sodium H. and Calcium H. if they are by weight or volume. However, liquids are normally listed by volume whereas solids are by weight.

Marketing strategies make this a wonderful game for the manufacturers as it makes it difficult for consumers to do an apples to apples comparison without buying the product.

Judging by the way Calcium H. reacts in my pool vs. Sodium H., I would say that 1 lb of Calcium H. will equal to between 1 and 2 gallons of 12% Sodium H. (my estimate, nothing factual).

I've been wanting to test this theory, but it's been low on my priority since not one person on my team is keen on mixing granules.

[Aplus 525]

Paul,

Since your team members don't like to mix granulars, why not mix up say a 55 gallon drum ahead of time, transfer to the appropriate sized containers, and distribute to the team members like that?

Ron,

I've had a swimming pool for the past 17 years. I try to keep the water properties in proper balance as much as possible. And believe it or not, just by following the directions, I have.

I have bought granular stabilized chlorine in 25 or 50 gallon pails, usually from a mail order company called "In The Swim".

A scoop in the pail is used to apply the chlorine. The number of scoops is determined by the gallons of water in your pool. I don't remember the exact percentages of chlorine and inert ingrediants.

In my hand right now, I have a 1# bag of pool shock. The label lists it as containing 68% calcium hypchlorite, & 32% inert.

The directions on the label say to use 1# per 10,000 gallons of water. This provides 7.5ppm free chlorine. A highr ppm is achieved by adding more product. They are implicitly stating that it's ok to measure and use by weight.

The manufacturer must be confident the instructions are correct for liability issues, regarding its usage.

I know Paul is probably thinking "Here we go again" :)

My point is that every single manufacturer says to scoop out, by weight, the amount you need to use for your pool. It works perfect for me everytime.

So why not use manufacturers' directions for at least a starting point?

[CCHSNC 14]

Ok, I'm not sure where this is going? I appreciate the input but I don't have a pool, I just wanted to try granular instead of liquid. I figured if I could buy enoough for the season all at once I would save money. Hence the name of this thread. I need to lower my prices a litle but do not want to loose my profit margin. Between all the rain, alot of summer weekend worriors and low ballers I've been taking a beating this year. I started this season with a minimum of $150.00 for house washing and an average of $1.45 per. sqft for a cleaninig sealing decks. Now I'm having to do a 1200sqft ranch for $115.00 and decks starting @ $.85 per sqft. This also depends on which area I'm in, but has pretty much been my starting point.

[Guest rfitz]

Robert, those numbers look good, normally I get .10 cents a sq ft for house washing, so that house I would charge $120.00 so were pretty close, and for decks, I charge about .75 to 1.50 a sq ft plus chems and stains, if Im just washing a deck grey wood, dirt, etc.. I average about .90 cents a sq ft

plus materials and stain, and I start at $1.25 a sq ft plus materials and stain to strip, of course these numbers are for a ground level deck, I go up about 10% for each 5 ft off the ground, so I would say your numbers are right in line with mine, although, my competetion is about 25-30% lower than me, so I have to sell alot harder, to get my price..

[Paul B. 523]

Tony,

There is nothing for me to gain by mixing from granular form into a drum, then filling 1 gallon containers. It's time consuming to mix 1 bag at time then transfer to the drum, then transfer from drum to gallon containers, having to clean each container after every use, then fill without worrying about spills. You also have to insure that all containers are always labeled and inventory control is a bit more difficult. Besides, I like to stop in and chat with the boss and the employees as often as they will put up with me. Every now and then I even get a customer or two out of the deal on the spot. In addition, the employees are some of my sales people and they give me a list of names/addresses that may require our cleaning services and I pay them a commission if we land the job. Sometimes the boss takes me to lunch and sometimes I take the boss to lunch. The boss is also one of my best sales people and he does not want my commission. If I purchased granular Calcium Hypochlorite, I would be mixing and cleaning, labeling and filling bottles instead of spending time with my pool care specialists. P.S.: I also help rotate his liquid shock supply by purchasing larger quantities.

As for Calcium Hypochlorite directions (without going into pool care or discussing the path that you've chosen):

When you add it to your pool, do you then check the pH and free chlorine levels? If it's still not in balance then do you not add more, or neutralize with an acid if the pH is too high?

I don't know what the back of your package contains but mine is full of directions, precautions, disclaimers. I will not copy the entire panel but hit the highlites.

- The very first thing it says: "ALWAYS USE ENTIRE CONTENTS WHEN OPENED." (They have it in capital letters at the very top.)

- Next: Follow "HOW TO USE" directions on this package.

- Add 1 lb. of this product per 10,000 gallons of pool water. This will provide a dosage of 7.5 ppm free available chlorine.

- Adjust and maintain pH to 7.2 - 7.6 using pH Plus (Increaser) or pH Minus (Decreaser).

My note: pH Increaser contains Soda Ash (Sodium Carbonate) and pH Decreaser contains Sodium Bisulfate (you can also use Hydrochloric / Muriatic acid to achive same results).

- DO NOT enter pool until the free available chlorine residual is between 1-3 ppm.

To me this means:

- You should know how many gallons of water are in your pool.

- You should have and know how to read a pH strip.

- You should have and know how to read a free available chlorine strip.

- You should use the entire content of your package, then measure your pH and free available chlorine. Use pH Increaser or Decreaser to adjust pH level.

- You should not use granular Calcium Hypochlorite in your kids 200 gallon wading pool.

In any case, even if you only use half a bag, it's still up to you to check pH and free available chlorine levels.

Bottom line:

The liability is with the consumer to test the waters pH and free available chlorine before and after adding chemicals.

I'll go out on the limb and say that a 1 pound bag of 68% Calcium Hypochlorite is not the equivalent of 6 gallons of 11.33% liquid Sodium Hypochlorite.

Questions (???):

How many 1 pound bags of 68% granular Calcium Hypochlorite ($2.99 per pound) do I need to mix to equal 55 gallons of 12-1/4% liquid Sodium Hypochlorite?

Will 1 pound of granular Calcium Hypochlorite completely disolve

in 1 gallon of water?

Knowing that Calcium Hypochlorite comes in liquid and granular forms what is the difference between Sodium and Calcium Hypochlorite?

[Aplus 525]

Paul,

If we knew what the ppm # of liquid chlorine is, could we then duplicate it by mixing the correct # of bags with water?

Maybe it isn't even worth fooling with. Like you mentioned the hassles of transfering to containers etc.... Too much additional time and hazards involved.

CCHSNC,

I mentioned pools because I thought it would be a good analogy regarding the mixing and usage of dry chems, for either pool usage or wash mix usage.

Trying to generate some disussions and toss around ideas regarding dry to liquid conversions.

[Paul B. 523]

Tony,

The easiest way to do this would be to call one of the manufacturers and talk to a sales person and have them get the answer from one of their chemical engineers.

I've approached it two ways in my thought process:

- When I shock my pool, I use 2 gallons of 10.39% liquid pool shock. When I've used granular pool shock, I've used (2) 1 pound bags to achieve the same results. Liquid Sodium Hypochlorite is faster acting than Calcium Hypochlorite (…or is it?)

- I have the same manufacturer making liquid and granular pool shock. He sells to a retailer who in turn sells the liquid for about $2 per gallon and sells granular for about $2.50 per pound. Would the manufacturer cut his own throat by manufacturing a granular product that was 6.5x as strong as the liquid and sell it at almost the same price? (No, but there are other differences between the two, such as pH.)

Pool Care specialists have tried to make their work a black box form of art (or at least I have not found one that can explain things to me so I can clearly understand it). They have created so many different types of products, it can make your head spin. There are large service companies such as PoolClor (with 30,000 plus customers) that subscribe to operating pools at high pH of 7.8 - 8.2 (while the standards have been 7.2 - 7.6).

Companies tell you that the effect of Hypochlorite can be greatly reduced at higher pH levels of 7.8 or 8.0.

So from that, you should be able to deduce that if I buffer and reduce the pH to around 7.0 and maintain a high available or free hypochlorite level, then I'll have the most effective product on hand. But wait ...the effectiveness of liquid hypochlorite is very high at full strength of 12-1/4% even with a high pH of over 12 and as you dilute it, the strength goes away but the pH is also reduced, so should your product be just as effective diluted (with low pH water) as it is concentrated as long as you can find that pH curve.

Here is what I think I know:

Sodium Hypochlorite has pH value of around 13

Calcium Hypochlorite pH 8.5

Dichlor (Stabilized Chlorine Granules) about 7.8

Trichlor (Chlorine Tablets) pH value below 6

The effectiveness of FREE chlorine in water is dependent on the pH value

Chlorine works more effectively in low pH than high pH water

Chlorine in water breaks down into:

Hypochlorous acid (HOCL) and

Hypochlorite Ion (OCL)

HOCL will destroy most organisms in less than 1 second while

OCL can take up to 30 minutes to achieve the same results.

Ratio of HOCL to OCL is determined by the pH value of the water:

At pH level of 7.0 75% of the FREE chlorine exists in water

At pH level of 7.4 52% of the FREE chlorine exists in water

At pH level of 8.0 only 22% of the FREE chlorine is available.

Sounds like checking the pH level (hardness) of the water that you use can help determine the effectiveness of Chlorine as well as all your other chemicals. This should explain (again) the differences from town to town, region to region why certain mixes work for some, while not for others. ...BUT YOU KNEW THAT ALREADY!

There are other products and chemicals on the market that will kill mold & mildew, has anyone experimented with any of them? I'm talking about copper or zinc based products.

Where can I buy a gallon of HOCL and how much does it cost?

[Aplus 525]

Thanks Paul,

Based on the information you provided, I think it's safe to say there are too many variables in making your own granular mix. It's easier, faster, safer to just use regular liquid pool chlorine.

[Paul B. 523]

If someone had time on their hands, they could play with it and see how effective it is.

I would start out with 4 oz. per gallon and work my way up from there unless you found 4 oz. formula to work very fast, then you would start going the other way by cutting it in half.

At the 4 oz mix, I would check results at 5, 10, 15 and 30 minute intervals. If your results were minimal at 30 minutes, I would go to an 8 oz. mix and check again at 5, 10, 15 and 30 minute intervals.

At that point you would definitely know where you stood in the game.

Again your watchout is that you can get inconsistent results from batch to batch by not using the whole bag (if your bag says to use the entire content when opened).

[CCHSNC 14]

Paul & Tony, Thanks for all the great input.:D

Rob, It's sad to say but those #'s I posted include materials. I must say that a majority of my work this season has been in areas of homes that are under $200k. This is one of the reasons why I haven't been able to get a reasonable price for my services.

I do have some advertizing coming out in September so hopefully this will boost the flow of jobs. I will also be tailoring my services to the customers needs rather than having just a blanket charge. Ooh yeah the advertizing will be in areas that have a higher income and property value.;)

[sderiis 0]

Hey guys, I need your help. I am looking for a program https://www.managemart.com/pool-care where I can track the implementation of tasks. For example, I set tasks that the employee must complete in a certain amount of time. Or the employee sets the tasks, but I should always know what exactly he works on. I need a time tracker that provides a report on the completion of tasks. Do you know such programs?