Cabot Solids

[Paul B. 523]

Does anyone use Cabot Pro VT or OVT solids for 2-tone decks (on surfaces other than deck floor)?

Normally we use Cabot Problem Solver Oil Primer with 2 top coats of Cabot Deck Stain Solid.

I'm looking for some alternatives to reduce material costs if it doesn't compromise life of finish.

[reed 500]

Paul, for white solid try the Cuprinol Pastel White. Holds very well and has mold and mildew inhibitors in it. Coverage is fantastic. They use the pastel white as the base for mixing their colors.

Hope this is what you wanted.

Reed

[Paul B. 523]

Thanks Reed!

Is that 1 or 2 coats on top of primer and is it a semi-gloss?

[Everett Abrams 501]

Paul,

I use alot of Cabot Products. If you are talking about the verticals I very rarely need three coats. I have the primer tinted the same color I am using and then a finish coat. That third coat is taking your time up. I don't see a reason for that on verticals. Are you using the tint base system? With that being said though lighter color, like white, I usually end up with a third coat. I used the

Pro V.T. for the first time last year. Checked it out this year, no problem. That is supposed to be a one-coat application on new or bare wood, primer coat if going over an existing coating. Reed isn't the only one I have heard good things about Cuprinol also. I haven't ried much different on the solids because of how well Cabot's lasts. If the costs go up I just build into the price and let the customer pay for it, I will never sacrifice quality for any reason. I don't know if this is a help, I hope so though.

[Paul B. 523]

Everett,

It is the White that I'm primarily interested in.

I'm looking to get 10-12 years life on the verticals.

Pro VT claims 12 year guarantee on new wood (primer and 2 top coats). The coverage rate is double (300-500) compared to the Deck Stain at 150-250 sq ft per gallon. I do pass on the costs, however if I can cut my material costs on Cabot, I can save about 50% on the top coat.

It may not be a lot on smaller decks, however I have (5) 2-tones lined up for this spring that are over 1000 sq ft for the verticals (one of the 5 is over 2100 sq ft.). On those 5, I could save over $800 on materials IF...

[Everett Abrams 501]

Paul,

What I have done is give them a higher price option using the Pro V.T. , that way it is there decision and I am getting paid for using the "better" product. Cabot is the one guaranteeing the product for 10-12 years. I basically tell them that it is less they'll have to worry about except for maintenance cleaning, just some thoughts. These two tone decks are really becoming popular and people are paying the extra.

[Paul B. 523]

Let me see if I can parrot back what I thought you said:

You give them 2 options with Pro VT

- No primer

- Primer with 2 top coats at a higher price

??????

Is the Pro VT finish a semi-gloss?

[Everett Abrams 501]

Paul B.,

Let me start over I didn't explain it well. If I use the Pro.V.T. I Use a tinted primer as the first coat and the PRO.V.T. as the finish coat (on new wood). That is supposed to be the advantage of the PRO.V.T., one coat on new wood - no primer. I use the primer anyway. If they want a 12 year guarantee, I always give ranges that's why I throw in the 10-12 just my way, that is specifically mentioned in both the PRO.V.T. and the Solid O.V.T. warrantys. Then they must have a primer coat and two finish coats. I honestly have no way of knowing at this point whether or not the PRO.V.T. is going to last 12 years because it hasn't been around that long. In summary, if I am going to give the customer the option of the12 year warranty then they get a primer, two finish coats and they pay the extra. If I am applying less coats, less money.

Paul, have you noticed before the PRO.V.T. that on their solids they only offered the guarantee with the Solid O.V.T. Acrylic Stain and not the Solid Oil Stain 6500 series? The PRO.V.T. finish is flat. I hope I did better this time.

[Paul B. 523]

Everett,

Thanks! You said what I thought you said. (...HUH?)

Yes, I did notice the difference between the acrylic & oil based stains, as I specifically looked for the guarantee duration. What was interesting is their approach on the Deck Stain life expectancy (I assumed that it is because of the deck floor not the verticals) - "...evaluate re-staining needs every 2-3 years."

I know I lost one bid because the home owner had a mindset that oil based solids are better than acrylics. I could see I lost him from the time I mentioned using Cabot Acrylic. Even when I said the primer was oil based and even when I offered "if you prefer oil based top coat...", I knew he didn't trust me because I suggested acrylic over oil.

When painting or staining I've had long lasting success with oil based primer with acrylic based top coats. Painting metal surfaces you have no option but to use oil primer as a water based primer will cause oxidation (rust) to seep thru.

Some folks already know that Cabot is a premium stain (especially if they read Consumer Reports or have seen the price per gallon in the store). So my prices automatically reflect a premium price when I offer Cabot. You know, the "good, ...better, ...best" approach.

On most of the existing 2-tones (which I have seen), the verticals are failing after 2-3 years. There is absolutely NO GOOD REASON for this with a good product. I explain this to the customer along with how to achieve a longer lasting finish.

After some investigation (talking with customers, contractors, paint & stain supply houses and looking at the failing surfaces) here are my conclusions.

In overwhelming majority of cases, premature failure was not caused by a poor quality product but because of:

- Improper surface preparation.

- Painting or staining before wood was dry enough.

- Not priming when painting.

Some other reasons for early failure are:

- Painting or staining below 50 degree temperatures

- Painting or staining in extremely high temperatures (direct sunlight and high humidity).

- Water based stain or paint was stored over winter and was allowed to freeze before used in spring.

- Not applying enough coats of the product (especially products that call for more than 1 coat).

- Not waiting long enough between coats (not allowing one coat to dry before 2nd coat is applied).

Most people don't read the labels on the container or

do not totally understand what they read

or choose to ignore some of the steps

I know that the majority of new construction contractors (in the sub-division production environment) skip priming or applying a 2nd coat (when they can get away with it) because it's their way to make extra money and they are long gone when the surface finish fails.

[Everett Abrams 501]

Paul B,

Boy, isn't it the hardest part getting through the customers "misconceptions." They have been so clouded by unprofessionals and the "guy at Home Depot" it is difficult to tell them anything different. They assume we are trying to sell them something that either isn't true OR doesn't matter. I have had the same issue pop up about the primer and being used with an acrylic, only a couple of time though. Just my opinion but, the problem solver makes all the difference. I have never had a problem when using this product.

Many of the failed coatings I run into have much to do with no primer used. Many contractors shortcut here because they think that the verticals take longer to wear that they don't need the primer, WRONG. You hit those reasons very well, I would add that there are still folks out ther doing this work and not using a moisture meter. To me this is unexcusable, specifically at this time of year and in the spring. I will say that I have used a low-temp paint before on wood surfaces (down to 35 degrees) and it held up. This was on trim about 6 years ago, I had to try it.

Paul, sometimes I feel that contractors are out there intentionally UNDER guaranteeing projects and lowering expectations so that they can come back every year , or sooner than they should, just to take more money. Sad to say but, I know of one contractor in my area that does this. They tell all their customers that there is NO prodoct that is going to last more than a year and they have to come back every year. They do this with semi's also. I guess you call this job security. Anyway another great response and thread by you.

[Paul B. 523]

Everett,

The "misconception" subject is a deep subject, which I have many thoughts on but would need at least 1 chapter in a book (maybe even a whole paperback). I'll spare everyone the EXTRA-long post.

When I paint, I use oil primer with acrylic and that provides long lasting results. I gathered that from many years of hands-on experience. I try to carry my personal habits into business and provide top quality results for my customers.

Not using primer is sometimes a short cut …on the other hand, I’ve seen it out of lack of experience, lack of knowledge and lack of “READING THE LABEL ON THE CAN” or not reading and following instructions.

If you haven't heard me say this, it goes like this:

"I feel that I owe it to my customer to tell them at least 1 time what I feel are the correct procedures, best methods or what I feel is the best direction. After that, it's the customer's dollar (it used to be NICKEL). I'm willing to do things that are not the highest cost, as I understand that not everyone wants or can afford the highest quality as translated to high cost (choice between a Town Car and a Pinto) but will provide “A” quality job at all cost levels. (Somewhere in there is also a statement about willing to do things less than perfect as long as it's not illegal, immoral, etc., etc..)”

I feel that letting your customers make decisions is important in a working relationship. Not all businesses have the luxury of offering one-way/one-cost service and survive. I think that’s a position you develop into, not necessarily start out on. (Of course, there are always exceptions.)

As a contractor, if you know about moisture meters and you are not using it, …you are not considered professional (my opinion). You are guessing and you are betting with the customer’s money.

"Under-Guarantees" fall in a similar category but carry an extra burden with it if you know it to be different. Now you are dealing with an unethical contractor who is willing to not tell the truth so they may have work in the future. This contractor is an uneducated contractor because they believe they can get more work by providing a lesser quality product or service. Sooner or later, the customer will find out. Guess what happens then?

Recently, I observed this type of mentality on another board go unchallenged – posts, after post, after post.

[Everett Abrams 501]

Paul,

You are talking about educating customers and giving them options. You can't do this. Don't you know that the less they know the better? (Sarcastic Humor HaHa)

I couldn't agree more and you are right this thread could end up turning into a novel on the misconception topics. One thing I have done is make up hand-outs to give to my customers as it relates to the bid. The perception being that it is much easier for them to believe the printed word over the spoken word. Examples are; Water Beading, Sealers vs. Semi's vs. Solids, Artillery Fungus, etc.

I couldn't agree more in giving customers options and education.

I also like to offer options but, I do have a slightly different take on this. I know a guy out here who does body work and paints vehicles. He told me once that he will only do work one way, the right way. Regardless of price you either pay or you don't. Reason is this, he doesn't want anyone to see his work that is offered at a lesser price and/or quality because this is how he feels the dialogue will go. "Hey, I see the paint on your car is bubbling (coming off) a bit. Didn't you just get it painted a year ago." Reply, "Yes I did." "Who painted it?" Reply, "ABC Company."

You don't hear them say that they paid less to get less of a job.

Then that other person goes around and says that he saw so and so's car and ABC company did it don't use them. He feels if he does the work one way NO ONE can ever say that about him and his company because he will only do work one way at one price.

There is a point to that because when people look at the house, deck or fence I just did and saw my trucks out there they may think if it fails in a year (or before it should) then that is the type of work I do. They don't know that the customer paid for a lesser job or only part of the job. Perceptions, perceptions, perceptions. This is good stuff.

[Paul B. 523]

Everett,

I don’t believe when you and I talk about offering different options for customers, that we talk about providing a POOR QUALITY product or service, but rather a choice of quality, ranging between GOOD - BETTER - BEST. The quality is always there whether the customer chooses a product that lasts 3 year, 5 years or 12 years. Different products have different preparation needs along with material quality and costs that may impact pricing.

We also know that for every successful one level product/service provider, there are 5 successful multi-level product/service providers out there. Here are a couple (3) examples:

#1 Earl Scheib – a successful national car paint and body service: Offers 4 tiers of car painting (Pro-1, Pro-2, Pro-3 along with the Pearl Package).

#2 Owens Corning – offers 15 and 30 year asphalt roof shingles at 2 price levels.

#3 Pressure washers are priced at different levels for their components.

A – has a Comet pump

B – has a General pump

C – has a CAT pump

3 price levels and 3 quality levels

Good judgment has to be made in offering lower cost product/service without totally sacrificing quality.

Which contractor provides a better service to their customers?

Contractor #1 has 3 products available (for the same job and application) priced exactly the same from his/her supplier. Product “A” provides a 1 year life; “B” provides a 2 year life; “C” provides a 3 year life. Contractor #1 provides his/her customer with product A at one price, product B at a higher price and product C at an even higher price.

Contractor #2 has the same supplier(s) and chose to provide product “C” as a 3 year life product at one price level and offers a 6 year, more expensive product at a higher price to the customer.

When I offer options, it’s along the line of Contractor #2, NOT contractor #1.

Good STUFF, Indeed!