Yellow page: Success or failure?

[Guest Danebob]

I have an add in the yellow pages coming out in april. I want to here from those who have placed an add how successful the add has been for you. If possible how manny jobs do you get from the add a month that your aware of?

Thanks for your help.

[Jarrod 22]

OK. I keep forgetting about that.

[mobileoneservices 14]

Jon, with direct mail you need to send out at least 5,000. The 2nd time you hit the same neighborhood would have been better spent on a different one. With direct mail, you have to have a "Go big, or Go Home" mentality.

I never hit an area more than once per season. Either they want it done, or they don't. If they want it done next month, they will most likely hold on to your ad. (If they find it appealing)

I have to disagree with some of your logic. Go Big or Go Home is good, but doing it once a season is wrong in my option. Take a look at Class A advertisers, do they just run a commercial on TV 1 time a day, or once an hour? No, they keep running them to keep their name and product in the front of peoples brain. I you send out a postcard in April and a customer thinks about it, but decides to wait for a while due to other more important things to take care of first, and then a competitior sends a coupon in June, you stand a good chance of loosing the sale. Studies show that people make a decision in 1-3 weeks tops, so if you don't send out regular mailings, and by regular I mean every 6-8 weeks, you are most likely loosing a great deal of business. By mailings, I mean to your database, not thru Val Pak, or Money Mailer, those things are a complete waste of money in my experience.

Just my thoughts.

Scott

[Don M. 14]

and why is that?

Sorry Dan, didnt mean to take so long.

When I first got into the biz, I thought that was were I would get most of my business from. I was dead wrong. I might have gotten $1000 worth of work from my 2 phone book ads the first year.

This year, even though I shouldnt have, I went back in. I have a real nice ad in the YB and a smaller ad in the Southwestern Bell Book. Total cost per month is 200.00. I have 2 ads in the YB, in 2 different counties, and one in the SB book.

Shockingly, my little rink a dink newspaper did the best for me last year.

Marketing is my weak point. I have spent thousands of dollars on junk that didnt work. It was the same old 6 and 7 that every other pressure washer does. Thats why I am hosting a round table to figure out what some other guys are doing, and to see how well I can do this third year in business.

A question that I do have is this...how do you get your ad to be the first ad in the book? I'm going to pick on Rob F. for a second. I know he changed his stuff around to where he is listed as A+ Pressure Pros. I saw his ad in the book and there he is. First. Would AAA be before him or after him? How do phonebooks determine that?

[clean kentucky 14]

AAA would come first Don! I also have had better response out of the newspaper than the phonebook. The only problem is that some guys say they're local newspaper charges 30 for an ad and ours charges 350.00 a month.

Doug Baker

Baker's Pressure Washing

270-268-1694

[Don M. 14]

Holy Sheite Doug. Yeah, mine charges 55.

[jnoden 15]

when you are talking about newspaper ads are you talking about classifieds services rendered section?

[Don M. 14]

Mine has a service directory

[Doug Dahlke 114]

My local paper charges $240 a month for a service directory ad. That to me is way too high but they are the only game in town.

[Jarrod 22]

I have to disagree with some of your logic. Go Big or Go Home is good, but doing it once a season is wrong in my option. Take a look at Class A advertisers, do they just run a commercial on TV 1 time a day, or once an hour? No, they keep running them to keep their name and product in the front of peoples brain. I you send out a postcard in April and a customer thinks about it, but decides to wait for a while due to other more important things to take care of first, and then a competitior sends a coupon in June, you stand a good chance of loosing the sale. Studies show that people make a decision in 1-3 weeks tops, so if you don't send out regular mailings, and by regular I mean every 6-8 weeks, you are most likely loosing a great deal of business. By mailings, I mean to your database, not thru Val Pak, or Money Mailer, those things are a complete waste of money in my experience.

Just my thoughts.

Scott

I have sent post cards to the same areas b4 with little to no results. My ad is so good that people retain it. Many times, I have had calls from 1 month to a full year after my ad was mailed.

Like I stated b4, either they want you or they don't. You have a better chance of getting jobs from an untapped area than from an area that you have already mailed to.

By the way tv ads are repeated because they are "intangibles."

[clean kentucky 14]

The price I stated was for the service directory.

Doug Baker

Baker's pressure Washing

270-268-1694

[Grime Dawg 14]

I have sent post cards to the same areas b4 with little to no results. My ad is so good that people retain it. Many times, I have had calls from 1 month to a full year after my ad was mailed.

Like I stated b4, either they want you or they don't. You have a better chance of getting jobs from an untapped area than from an area that you have already mailed to.

By the way tv ads are repeated because they are "intangibles."

Jarrod,

Most ads ARE intangibles for the most part. Though some people may save your ads, many more won't. There are different opinions on whether to remail to the same list or not.

Here is my take.

If you mail to a certain list and get what YOU would consider is a great response. I would mail it again, maybe 2-3 weeks later.

If it was still considerably profitable. Try mailing again. If it was borderline profitable, don't remail. Everyone has different time frames when they want work done. They may not be ready on the first mailing, or maybe didn't even pay attention to your ad on the first mailing.

It has been proven in direct mail, that as much as 50% of your total response will come from your subsequent mailings. So as long as your mailings are profitable, you should keep mailing (use common sense here).

The other option is mail to list #1. On your second mailing use an entirely different list but include 25% of the first list with it. Keep using this technique if profitable. You must track your profits and know which list your jobs are coming from to know whether it pays off or not.

Regardless of advertising medium, as many as 7 exposures are generally required to maximize your response (profits). To me 'responses' don't mean anything. Only actual profit dollars matter.

Keep in mind also, that if your ad isn't killer like Jarrods, your responses will suck wind or be non-existant.

And if you are using a 'demographic non-prequalified' type mailing list, as most of us do, your % will be much lower than if you had a prequalified list.

When it comes to newspaper ads, daily's don't seem to work as well as weeklies. Daily papers have virtually NO 'shelf-life'.

Money Mailer and Val-Pac are for newbie business owners that don't know any better or for those business owners that like to sell rock bottom to the cheapest customers in the marketplace. Not entirely, they probably work OK for mechanics and those types of businesses, but not ours.

[Barry M 73]

This is a very interesting topic. What's interesting is hearing what works for some and what doesn't work for others.

What really intrigues me is how many YP ads have failed for people. A failed ad or an ad that brings a poor ROI always gets blamed on the yellowpages themselves or whatever media it is in. When in reality it is the ad itself that was the failure, the message the ad portrayed to prospects is what failed to bring you the profits you had hoped for.

The trick is to portray to people that your company is better than the next guy. You and your past customers know your company is better, that your customer service is unmatched, that you are professional, and your job quality is top notch. This is called your Inside Reality. Your Outside Perception is how potential prospects see your company. You have to get your Outside Perception to match your Inside Reality. When someone looks at your advertising, how do they know your Inside Reality is the best? How can they tell that you are different and that you are the one they want to do business with? Well if your ad looks like all the other ads......they can't.

Look in any phone book under any service. All the ads are the same!! All the ads say is: This is who we are, this is what we do, and here is our phone number.........BORING and the same as everyone else. You have to stand out and think outside the box and that doesn't necessarily mean having a huge one page ad in color either. Just my 2 pennies.

[Jarrod 22]

Good post Barry.

Todd, I had a perticular few sub divisions that we did really well in last year. Three or 4 weeks after my post cards were sent there, I sent more to the same sub. Not 1 call from that sub. I hand picked all of my subs last year. (Way too much driving! But worth it.) I then grouped them into different mail campaigns. I also tracked which subs gave the best response. On my next mail campaign, I would include those subs. Each time, the response was the same (with the already mailed to subs) - little to no response.

As Barry said, what works for 1 person, doesn't work for another.

You have a much better chance for higher response by mailing to a "fresh" area than an already mailed to area.

I know that SOME of the people in a previousely mailed to area did not see my ad.

I also know that ALL of the people have NOT seen my ad in fresh area.

Knowing this, where should I spend my money?

In which area am I certian to get more calls?

[Don M. 14]

Barry, I think I've heard that somewhere before. :)

[Barry M 73]

Barry, I think I've heard that somewhere before. :)

That's good to hear, I was hoping it wasn't just those little voices in my head again.

I'm not posting to anybody in particular here, I'm just thinking out loud again. There is so much to learn and experiment with when it comes to marketing and advertising. One can use a headline that grabs prospects attetion and then hot buttons to keep them interested and then good copy to educate them and then a call to action telling them what to do.

One also needs to understand right brained and left brained people (fact oriented or emotional) and play to them both in one ad. Most ads only attract one group or the other so right off the bat they are losing 50% of their potential prospects. When creating a successful ad it's necessary to see the world through your prospects eyes and then to talk to them in the ad pointing out the benefits that they can gain by hiring you.

Too many ads are me me me advertising. I've said it many times before, nobody cares about you or your business. They only care about themselves and their problems. I could go on all night but the one thing it all points back to is if your ad looks like your competitors ad then your company looks like their company, and it's at this point that the prospect has nothing more to base their buying decision on but price so they go down the list looking for the cheapest one. What else are they suppose to do?

[Grime Dawg 14]

Good post Barry.

Todd, I had a perticular few sub divisions that we did really well in last year. Three or 4 weeks after my post cards were sent there, I sent more to the same sub. Not 1 call from that sub. I hand picked all of my subs last year. (Way too much driving! But worth it.) I then grouped them into different mail campaigns. I also tracked which subs gave the best response. On my next mail campaign, I would include those subs. Each time, the response was the same (with the already mailed to subs) - little to no response.

As Barry said, what works for 1 person, doesn't work for another.

You have a much better chance for higher response by mailing to a "fresh" area than an already mailed to area.

I know that SOME of the people in a previousely mailed to area did not see my ad.

I also know that ALL of the people have NOT seen my ad in fresh area.

Knowing this, where should I spend my money?

In which area am I certian to get more calls?

Jarrod,

From your personal results, it is obvious that mailing to a fresh list is your best bet.

One question I have is what do you mean by 'did really well'? How many homes were mailed to and what was the overall response?

You don't have to provide the numbers.

The reason for asking is that if the sub-division has 300 homes and your mailing produces say 2% (forget profits for now, we are assuming you made good $$$).

The 2% response would be considered great by most direct mail standards. Still, that is just 6 homes out of 300.

Are you saying that only 6 homes out of 300 would be interested in your services?

If your mailer is producing much better, say 10% or so, then you have definately penetrated that sub.

Barry was right in that what works for one doesn't work for another.

My goal is to dispense of 'predisposed' ideas and open the 'box' for people to be able to find what is best for them.

Your point is valid! Maybe for people just getting started that is the best approach.

What about those people that want to farm an area and be known as the 'go-to' company for PW? Those people that are trying to 'brand' themselves within a certain radius from their home?

How about using a totally different mailer on the second mailing? Everyone responds to different 'hot buttons'. Maybe your mailers 'hot buttons' are limited to a certain segment of people.

It could be that a post card is not the most effective way to reach some of the residents in these areas.

Even with your great results, could your mailer be improved to increase your response rate by just another 1/2%?

That's 1 1/2 more jobs for the same initial aquisition cost.

Jarrod, from your posts you are obviously a very knowledgeable businessperson. In fact, you are probably one of the few that take a methodical approach to tracking your results. You are WAY ahead of the game than most.

Take the above information for what it is, another view point, a different perspective that could help improve what you've already got going.

[Jarrod 22]

That's good to hear, I was hoping it wasn't just those little voices in my head again.

I'm not posting to anybody in particular here, I'm just thinking out loud again. There is so much to learn and experiment with when it comes to marketing and advertising. One can use a headline that grabs prospects attetion and then hot buttons to keep them interested and then good copy to educate them and then a call to action telling them what to do.

One also needs to understand right brained and left brained people (fact oriented or emotional) and play to them both in one ad. Most ads only attract one group or the other so right off the bat they are losing 50% of their potential prospects. When creating a successful ad it's necessary to see the world through your prospects eyes and then to talk to them in the ad pointing out the benefits that they can gain by hiring you.

Too many ads are me me me advertising. I've said it many times before, nobody cares about you or your business. They only care about themselves and their problems. I could go on all night but the one thing it all points back to is if your ad looks like your competitors ad then your company looks like their company, and it's at this point that the prospect has nothing more to base their buying decision on but price so they go down the list looking for the cheapest one. What else are they suppose to do?

Barry, great post man! Good info.

[Barry M 73]

Dawg

Jarrods thinking is that it's a numbers game, the more people that he targets the more jobs he will get. It sounds like he's tried retargeting areas with multiple mailings and he just didn't like the results.

I don't necessarily agree with his methods because for me it would be a lot of wasted circulation mailing to an entire zip code and then another. For me, most of the addresses in my zip or neighboring zips aren't my potential customers. I wouldn't be hitting just the bullseye of my target but also all around it. That would result in a poor return in comparison to the price of so many mailers.

I know that Jarrod offers a promotion in the spring that is a pretty good deal to the customer so his target market may be a little bigger than mine, I don't offer deals only a premium price. So he puts a promotion out there that a wide range of people can afford and he hits area after area never repeating a mailing and he gets a butt load of calls and he closes a butt load of jobs. He told me how many houses and decks he did last year not to mention his fleets. When a guy does nothing but estimates and closings from dark to dark for two months straight while his guys are working I would say what he does must work for him, even though I don't use his methods I give him props.

Didn't this start as a YP ad thread?......:dunno:

[plainpainter 217]

If you think of bulk mailings to a certain area - as the input to a function -With the mapping of this function as a snap shot in time as to how the aggregate of these homeowners will react. I.E. some don't have decks, some do - but they're new, some already got them refinished, some need to get finished but have a family painter in mind - and then the ones that will be your customer. It would be reasonable to assume that if you repeat the mailing to the same area within a short period of time - you aren't going to get different results. Those that will be your customer - have already contacted you. You have to let enough time pass so conditions change - those decks that were new after several years enter into your universe of potential customers - because now those decks are greyed; the customers who previously had a 'family' painter - are now stuck with nobody, because the painter is now retired and living in Florida, etc. So I totally agree with Jarrod that you have to hit new areas.

[Jarrod 22]

Jarrod,

From your personal results, it is obvious that mailing to a fresh list is your best bet.

One question I have is what do you mean by 'did really well'? How many homes were mailed to and what was the overall response? I'll have find out what the count was for each sub. Great question and point. Thank you.

You don't have to provide the numbers.

The reason for asking is that if the sub-division has 300 homes and your mailing produces say 2% (forget profits for now, we are assuming you made good $$$).

The 2% response would be considered great by most direct mail standards. Still, that is just 6 homes out of 300. I hear you. So knowing this, why didn't more people respond?

1.They didn't see/notice my ad.

2.They didn't like my ad.

3.They couldn't afford to do it (at that time, or at all that year)

4.Already had their "go to guy."

5.Right brainers looking at a left brainer ad.

6.All the above.

I saw tons of nasty decks in these subs that were not done in the time frame that we were there. (2 to 3 weeks and later visits a month after.)

Are you saying that only 6 homes out of 300 would be interested in your services? Maybe? I think that a lot of them are interested in getting their deck done. Maybe one of the 5 reasons listed above, they didn't have it done by me or anyone else.

If your mailer is producing much better, say 10% or so, then you have definately penetrated that sub. 10% would be great! Is it possible? Last year, I sent out 40,000 post cards. If I got 4,000 jobs off of that, I would be floored! Have you ever heard of anyone getting a 10% response off of direct mail? If so, I wanna know their secret! (I'm not challenging you here Todd, I really, really wanna know!)

Barry was right in that what works for one doesn't work for another.

My goal is to dispense of 'predisposed' ideas and open the 'box' for people to be able to find what is best for them. This is my goal too. Believe me, I'm very open minded about this.

Your point is valid! Maybe for people just getting started that is the best approach.

What about those people that want to farm an area and be known as the 'go-to' company for PW? Those people that are trying to 'brand' themselves within a certain radius from their home? Interesting choice of word (farm.)

Let me elaborate on that analogy. A farmer plants a crop in a certain area. After it grows, he harvests the crop. After the harvest, the soil needs time to become "fertile, or enriched" before the new seeds can be planted. This usually takes several months. Next "season" the time is right to plant the seeds. A farmer knows that planting seeds in recently used soil is a waste of time & money. So, he will now either look else ware for fresh soil, or just wait until the soil is ready.

How about using a totally different mailer on the second mailing? Everyone responds to different 'hot buttons'. Maybe your mailers 'hot buttons' are limited to a certain segment of people. Now THAT is a great idea! I never thought of that b4. OR, shuffle your 2 different post cards and sent each area the "mix." Imagine, each prospect in a whole area getting 1 of your two different ads! It's the best of both worlds. (Hear that? Those are my gears turning!LOL)

It could be that a post card is not the most effective way to reach some of the residents in these areas. Every job we did had a yard sign too. You might be right. If these people wrer the coupon or magazine types, I'd rather they didn't call me anyhow.

Even with your great results, could your mailer be improved to increase your response rate by just another 1/2%? There's always room for improvment. In fact, I was think about tweaking my ad this year anyway.

That's 1 1/2 more jobs for the same initial aquisition cost.

Jarrod, from your posts you are obviously a very knowledgeable businessperson. In fact, you are probably one of the few that take a methodical approach to tracking your results. You are WAY ahead of the game than most. Thank you, I owe a lot of that to my anal retentive engineer/drill sergeant genes I inherited from my dad. I also owe it to this BBS.

Take the above information for what it is, another view point, a different perspective that could help improve what you've already got going.

Todd, I love being challenged. I never get offended by it, in fact, I welcome it! I think that it's good for us all to challenge each other. Even if an idea sounds perfect, challenge it. You can't find out how many pounds fishing line can hold without tying some weights to it. When we go fishing, we better make sure that the line is tested, and will hold what we are trying to catch.

I respect your logic Todd. I'm so glad that you are a part of this family.

[Jarrod 22]

Dawg

Jarrods thinking is that it's a numbers game, the more people that he targets the more jobs he will get. It sounds like he's tried retargeting areas with multiple mailings and he just didn't like the results.

I don't necessarily agree with his methods because for me it would be a lot of wasted circulation mailing to an entire zip code and then another. For me, most of the addresses in my zip or neighboring zips aren't my potential customers. I wouldn't be hitting just the bullseye of my target but also all around it. That would result in a poor return in comparison to the price of so many mailers.

I know that Jarrod offers a promotion in the spring that is a pretty good deal to the customer so his target market may be a little bigger than mine, I don't offer deals only a premium price. So he puts a promotion out there that a wide range of people can afford and he hits area after area never repeating a mailing and he gets a butt load of calls and he closes a butt load of jobs. He told me how many houses and decks he did last year not to mention his fleets. When a guy does nothing but estimates and closings from dark to dark for two months straight while his guys are working I would say what he does must work for him, even though I don't use his methods I give him props.

Didn't this start as a YP ad thread?......:dunno:

Barry, this year I found very affordable software that will target only the demagraphics that I want in the specifis areas that I want.

Last year & the year b4, I did mail to areas by postal route. This year I will be hitting bullzeyes most of the time. My closing ratio will be better for sure this year. I just found out that last year, my closing ratio was 60%. I hope to up that this year while increasing my margin. With the help of this new software, I think I will do it. I'm really pushing house washing this year even harder than I did last year. I want to wash 100 homes this year. My goals for this year are:

100 house washes

200 decks

50 brick pavers jobs

[Jarrod 22]

This is turning out to be a really great thread. I have learned a lot. I know that it started out as a "YP, should I or shouldn't I" thread, but I think it "evolved" into other good info too.

[Barry M 73]

Just as I talk you up, you are perfecting your efforts even more......lol. Well they do say that your company is either growing, shrinking, or stagnant, so I guess it's best to grow. Always trying to better yourself, thinking positive, and setting goals........Sounds like traits of a successful person. :lgmoneyey

[Jarrod 22]

Thank you Barry. Looks like you are in for a great year yourself.

BTW, are you riding to the meeting with us?

[Barry M 73]

Thank you Barry. Looks like you are in for a great year yourself.

BTW, are you riding to the meeting with us?

Yes I am in for a great year and yes I am riding with you guys. I was going to pm or call Doug today but got busy. But yes I'm definately going and would like to hitch a ride. Just need to know which way you guys are coming so we can set up a meeting place. Man I'm pump......yeeeehaaww! This RT is going to be the cat's arse.