RPetry

Daniel, Got the oxalic, we are in the wrong business. $8.55 at Ace for like 12 oz. Anyway, the wood is ready for acids but the weather is very cold. Did not get above 41F here today and was windy. Did some deck repairs for an upcoming job and had to wear gloves! What do you think? Wait until warmer weather? The ipe' dries out in a flash so on a warm sunny day can probably apply the acids to each test section, and put a 1st app of stain on within an hour or two. Let me know. This is your experiment, I'm just the guinea pig.

Hey Yaz! (Stephen), Good to see you here again. I spent nearly two months before Xmas outside of Bangor, Maine, putting in a foundation and starting to frame and sheath a new house for a friend. Cold. Don't complain about Florida, especially with the winter we've had here in NJ. And at the moment, its not over yet. Missed you since the good old days last year of the Great Bleach Debate. Man that was some kind of fun. Stick around this time, I like you 'cause you laugh at my jokes!

In his prime, Dice was a hoot. Never saw him live but heard some of his bits on radio and recordings. Real funny, but one of my favorites at that time was Sam Kinison. His breakout came on a Rodney Dangerfield special, think it may have been HBO. His bit about starvation in Northern Africa is a classic, a you have to throw your pants away funny. Dice still comes on Howard Stern's show every now and again. He and Arty Lang got into it one day last summer and it was so hilarious I had to pull the car over to the side of the road.

Jeff says: White Stripes? For the music, Atlantic City was better than Woodstock. Smaller venue, better sound, less overall craziness, and no mud.

John, Yeah, I was 16 and my parents gave me a free rein. 6 of us drove up with a pop up tent trailer from Pa. and decided to take the rural route coming in from the west through country roads. My older sister and her 1st husband got stuck on the NY thruway in traffic and never made it. We drove right in and set up camp!

Rod, Initially, to test Daniel's proposition, I was going to do 1/2 of the complete deck with oxalic, the other half with my normal citric. After speaking with Diamond Jim, decided that my wife and I did not want to live with a two toned ipe' deck. Please realize that I have never used oxalic on wood, and did not understand that the "bleaching" or coloring of the ipe' would be so different between the two acids. I think I can pretty accurately brush the oxalic onto the one section of toprail without mixing with the citric on the lower spindles. Some oxalic may drip on the deck floor but thats ok.

Beth, This little experiment that Daniel proposed does not use a blend at all. One section of the 2 x 6 ipe' toprail and PT skirt will be neutralized/brightened by 6 oz./gal. of citric acid only. The other section of toprail will be treated by 6 oz./gal. of oxalic acid only.

Philip exclaims: Hah! Hilarious. And very close to the truth for me at the moment. Good to see a sceptic, cynic, and wit here on TGS.

Look for the nearest heavy foliage.

John, Thanks for the warning. Although I only have college kids, on the books, with WC, that is good to know. Been tempted at times to go with underground hiring. $400K in back taxes? I'd be living in a homeless shelter! Just gotta' love the Garden State.

Beth, I attended the recent ACR roundtable last month. Why did you go? What Barry eloquently said in the above post. Meet like minded and helpful people. Learn new things. Network. Actually meet those face to face that I have interacted with here on TGS. Have fun. Support the best business partners I have, Tom and Barbara Vogel. What did you get out of it? Recognition as a wood guy among others. Your terrific marketing class ( come on Beth, two points?). Seriously, the best few bucks I've spent on education. Socializing and just getting to know a few others in the same business. This is a solitary business in many aspects and after a long winter, just knowing and interacting with other real live people is important. Camaraderie is important for well being. Would you attend again and why or why not? Yes. Because of all of the above. Missed ACR's fall roundtable being up in Maine and its the first one since Tom and Barbara started these get togethers. Plus I relish the opportunity to give you and Barbara a tight squeeze when I see 'ya!

Daniel, Yeah, stain quantity difference over such a small surface would take the National Bureau of Standards. As I'm sure you know, ipe', due to the density of the wood, does not take much stain. Thats an overstatement, takes hardly any stain compared to other woods. Even with a paraffinic oil, it will be interesting to try and get two separate apps into the wood. The old PT board below the top rail is the exact opposite. This could be interesting. Same woods, same age, same moisture and sun exposure, same stain. I had hoped to test another stain product at the same time in a small area but that did not pan out. In retrospect, we probably have enough variables going as is. I am going to have to wait a while before staining, it is just too cold here for the next 4 days to consider. I will wait for the ipe' to dry out from cleaning, do a light random orbital sanding with 50 grit, and then apply the acids. When I can get to applying stain is up to the weather gods.

Daniel, I got off the phone with Jim Foley a bit ago. A change of plan. Please bear with me as I have never used oxalic acid before on any exterior wood. I am also married to a terrific wife who loves our ipe' deck. Letting it sit stripped for a year cost me a few points. We bought a new teak dining set last year that I also left alone to weather over the summer, another few lost points, and that will be stained when the weather warms up this year. Anyway, bottom line is this. From what Jim has told me, the ipe' will look very different even after staining due to the color difference of the wood resulting in the "bleaching" or brightening differences of oxalic as opposed to citric. Having a two toned ipe' deck is not in my best interest. I think I've pushed my marital bliss enough, so let me propose this. The top rail running the length of the deck is 2 x 6 ipe'. It gets full sun, nearly all day. It is just as exposed to moisture as the deck boards. Half the top rail gets oxalic, half citric. Same stain, same quantity. I'm going to try and get two separate apps of RS into the horizontal ipe' if and when temps warm up some. The bottom top rail fascia board on the outside of the balustrade is 18 yr. old PT. Same thing, half oxalic, half citric. The rest of the deck gets straight citric. Do you think this is good enough for our purpose? If not, let me know and I will not treat any of the wood with oxalic. Thanks.

Jim, I'm not following you. Just cleaned the ipe' floor with percarb and was planning on using 6 oz. of citric/gal. on one half and 6 oz. of oxalic/gal. on the other half to neutralize/brighten. This is a test for Daniel's ideas. Should we be doing something different?

Daniel or others interested, Linked are four "before cleaning" pics of my townhouse ipe' deck, being used for oxalic / citric test. http://windsorwoodcare.com/images/bboard_photos/dscf0009.jpg http://windsorwoodcare.com/images/bboard_photos/dscf0010.jpg Two overall views. Top rail, fascia, stair 2x4's are ipe'. Balustrade, stair stringers, lattice, posts, and rr ties are 18 yr. old PT. http://windsorwoodcare.com/images/bboard_photos/dscf0011.jpg Close up of 5/4 x 6 ipe' deck boards. Not obvious but old Cabot Austrailian Timber oil still present on edges after a pretty hot strip last year. http://windsorwoodcare.com/images/bboard_photos/dscf0013.jpg Side view of ipe' decking with old Aussie oil still discoloring the ipe' beneath an overhang. It is my belief that the tung oil in the product makes it difficult to remove. Am not going to bother with another strip, one NaOH hit is enough. RS will hide any discoloring left after cleaning/brightening I hope! Once cleaned and brightened with both acids and dried, I'll link up additional pics.

Thats a strong warning Jeff and your source is certainly credible. A good heads up for any TGS member contractors hiring. So if you are going to hire "questionables", a through review of their documentation is in order I guess.

Daniel says: You know not what you wish for. Ipe' is a pain to take care of every year! Called my local Ace Hardware this AM. They have "Wood Bleach" which I assume is oxalic. Of course I'll check it out before purchase and use. I'll post some before pictures on my web server in a little while and post here with links.

Sir James of Knowledgewood, Hah! Maybe an idea. How about woodies sponsor a plane load of indigenous Indians from the rainforests of the Amazon basin to work on rich American's ipe' decks? There's got to be a great marketing campaign in there somewhere. Where's Ken?

Daniel asked: I'll give it a go. I have a small ipe' deck that I stripped about this time last year and have let it just weather back to a silver patina. As the weather here in NJ is not looking good through the weekend for customer work, was going to percarb and neutralize it today or tomorrow. The ipe' is 4 years old. I've got ~ 50 lbs. of pure citric acid in stock but no oxalic. I'll see if I can buy some locally today. My citric is always mixed at 6 oz. / gal. I'll mix the oxalic in the same proportion. Stain ( with the weather, it may be a while before application ) will be Ready Seal, probably medium red.

Philip said: This sounds about right. The INS, IRS, Dept. of Treasury, whomever the Feds throw at illegals aren't going to go after JL Pressure Washing or Windsor WoodCare. They have much bigger fish to fry. The meat packing industry in the midwest, Walmart subcontracting to Cleaning Co.'s and locking workers inside stores overnight, etc. With limited resources the Feds go after big press and big examples. Kind of like the local DA making a name for himself by prosecuting organized crime. They don't devote their limited resources going after petty theives.

Mel, That is a very interesting observation. I've avoided even considering hiring Latino workers only because I do not have any Spanish skills. Jeeze, English is tough enough. How do you communicate? We have a very nice Polish gal that cleans our house every other week. She and I can kind of understand basic things between us, but I know I'd never be able to train her on exterior wood.

Daniel, I must have selective memory lapses, tossing aside stuff I read that I consider, to be nice, "questionable". If ESI or other distributors or manufacturers can produce some studies or factual evidence of such claims I would be very interested. I think I know only three primary differences between citric and oxalic acids on exterior wood. Citric is benign while oxalic has health issues. Citric is mostly ineffective on removing "nail bleed" while oxalic will temporarily remove a lot. Citric is ~ twice the cost of oxalic. Both acids are cheap. Citric use may be less hazardous to the immediate environment. If there are other factors when using on exterior wood, I'm all ears.

Jeff, 89 calls? Holy smokes, you may have to change your phone number. Do you speak Spanish? Hey you have one more spot open? I better email my resume ASAP. Do you have any wood down there in Myrtle Beach? Need a new subsidiary? I'm looking for a winter home. Just got to get out of NJ in the winters. This state is so expensive, corrupt, and a friggin' bureaucratic nightmare, it just drives me crazy. Some laid back Southern hospitality, warm breezes, and slower pace could just be the recharge I need to deal with things here. For some peace of mind, $14 an hour sounds good! Hope your new hires work out for you.

Daniel, Had to read this twice to understand what I think you are stating. Are you saying that manu's or others are claiming that citric acid does not "open" the wood as much as oxalic, so you will get more sq. ft. coverage per gallon of stain? Thought I had been around a while but this is the first time I've heard that. Anyone have any testing data or hard evidence on this?

Daniel, Your idea seems plausible enough. I'm not sure of any facts but 2 comments. Is oxalic truly any different than straight citric acid when dealing with wood and its ability to absorb a stain? I've always used pure citric acid due to poisonous characteristics of oxalic and the "green" marketing feature of citric. Never had a problem with any wood soaking up Ready Seal. Second, you can nearly hit ipe' with a friggin' flamethrower followed by a sledgehammer to do any damage to the wood. Might discolor it a bit, but the wood has the fire rating of concrete.