RPetry

Jeff, Yeah, saw Frank with the Mothers at the Atlantic City Pop Festival back in 1969. What many do not realize is how accomplished a musician Zappa was. Tipper Gore tried to ruin him, the self serving *itch. Chambers Brothers jammed "Time" for about 45 minutes. Everyone was on their feet in a rockin frenzy. What a great 3 days of music. Made it to Woodstock a few weeks later. Came in from the west and camped about a half mile from the stage. A summer of memories that I'll remember fondly on my death bed. Check out the lineup. As I'm having a problem uploading images to TGS, I posted them on my web server. See: http://windsorwoodcare.com/images/atlantic1.jpg And: http://windsorwoodcare.com/images/atlantic2.jpg

Beth says: They're pretty hot-blooded down in NC! Might have to do a road trip and find me a little wood wench.

Jeff, Cost of living differences considered, maybe comparible. I assume you don't have to spend ~450K for a small single family home in a decent neighborhood. Nah, I don't wash buildings or do flatwork. Wood is worth at least $30/hr. but then again at my age and pace of work, thats probably overpaying!

Jeff, Oh my god, you can get anything beside sad people at $10/hr.? Is that a normal starting rate for your area? Up here in NJ, I hire wet behind the ears college kids starting at $12. If they work out, they will get up to $15.

Kevin, Remove Wolman's F&P from item #3, it is linseed oil based not paraffinic. Add Bakers Gray Away to item #3, it is paraffinic oil based. Remove Ready Seal from item #16, it is available in California.

Kevin, For an overview, you may want to go to: http://www.thegrimescene.com/forums/wood-cleaning-restoration-decks-fences-etc/6885-2006-sealer-poll-you-using-year.html I'll play. Stain: Ready Seal water based=No oil based=Yes parafin replenishing type product=Yes sodium metasilica non strippable product=No acrylic top coat=No film forming=No permanent or 7+ year=No low sheen=Yes high sheen=No penetrating=Yes transparent=semi-transparent Yes tintable=Yes pre-tinted=Yes available mail order only=No available from nationwide suppliers=Yes not available to California=Your question should read: "Is it available in California?". Yes avg's under $30 per gal.=Yes avg's under $50 per gal.=Yes can be applied to wet wood=No, never, shame on those that do. Needs wood <= 12% initially usually requires more than one coat=Yes horizontals, usually one heavy app vertical wood. usually needs stripped before reapplication=Never usually lasts 2 years or more=Yes, 2 yrs. light cleaning and an oil replenishment reapplication after 2 years usually requires full strip=No wood must absolutely be neutralized prior to application=absolutely, don't know. Should be, Yes must be brushed on=No can be sprayed on with airless=Yes can be sprayed on with pump up sprayer=Yes can be water diluted prior to application=Lord NO! can be sprayed on with pressure washer downstreaming or xjetting=You have to be kidding. No. accepts foot traffic within 2 hours=In warm temps, Yes accepts foot traffic within half day=Yes accepts foot traffic within one day=Yes It is suggested that you delete #4, 7 , 24, 29. For #24, thats prep and I do not think any stain likes a caustic surface, let alone the color of the wood after staining. #11 should read Semi-transparent. Most do not advocate or typically use stains without pigments. #4, 7, 29 are wacky stuff no one in their right mind would consider using. Add hardwoods a. Lasts one year on ipe' b. Lasts two years on ipe' Add maintenance. a. Need a pressure washer for maintenance. b. Need a wood cleaner or light stripper and a neutralizer for maintenance. c. A light sodium hypochlorite mix with garden hose pressure is used for maintenance

Beth,Good timely admonishment of some of us wayward members. I'm sure Charlie and his dad are fine fellows and good people. After all, they are in the midwest and work with wood. Just hope they are not part of that Madison crowd, shameful Fidel and Marx idolists. Ever wonder on the why and how you created this overwhelming monster of a website?

Easy Ken. I think Charlie may be at least part woodie and does use ESI products. Plus he's from Wisconsin, and they can be a bit brain dead out there. As it is Sunday, I guess we should cut him some slack. Hope he's not from Madison. Thats a hotbed of radical liberals that make Jeff look like Ronald Regan.

Ken says: Hah! Can't stand it when people mince words.Anyone here expecting a physics dissertation has stupidly wandered onto the wrong website.

Yeah, and how about Villary bringing Daddy Clinton on the scene to raise money? And that linseed oil waste that can destroy your business and explode trucks? Sorry Charlie, you have wandered onto a web site filled with malcontents, wackos, a few psychotics, and mostly just a bunch of hard working good old boys and girls. Beth tries her best to keep us under wraps, but her efforts over the years have been minimal at best. Go with the flow and have some fun. You don't happen to have a relation in the tuna family? Just kidding, try and have some fun.

Jeff, Sure did, its all over the boards. Why do you think he gets no sleep? Saw John at ACR and he was all smiles.Actually, John may have a vision problem. Villary kind of looks like a mutated chipmunk, with a face more attune to horror films than politics. Bet she's real moody too. Permanent PMS personality. A kind of Barbara Streisand of politics. No lie, the quote below is apparently not made up.

Ken, That is good and as hoped for and expected. I can vouch the same, but I only sell products to customers that I service. Under full disclosure, PressurePro's agenda is a bit different from the average contractor. Many here, especially guests, are not aware of the retail nature of your trade. Just as Beth & Rod used TGS in years past to market products handled by their distribution company, you and Russell are doing the same with TGS to market ESI products. Just so everyone understands this, everything is above board. Ken, it matters not a twit how I personally define a "film forming" stain. I do not manufacture stains, I do not distribute stains. I have no input on how the FPL or industry defines stains. In my simple mind anything that hardens at the surface into some type of "barrier" is a film. As I stated it is semantics, small potatoes, no reason for any argument.On application. Please Ken, you know better. RS like any paraffinic oil is a flood app on horizontal wood, followed by a lighter finish app. Vertical wood usually gets one heavy app. This is for 1st time RS jobs. Maintenance in two years, which is the same cycle of PressurePro's / WTW, is a single app on all surfaces.I've used WTW on exactly one job. I did not care for the product, but that is personal preference and not germane to general discussion. I did find it much more difficult and labor intensive to apply, but that may be somewhat alleviated with practice. ESI has stated on this board that WTW is best left to professional application, and not DIY homeowner use. I can guarantee that my labor costs would increase significantly if I were to use WTW on maintenance. Daniel or PLAINPAINTER made a very astute post. A paraffinic conditioning oil followed by a linseed oil top coat. Russell said nearly the exact thing about ESI stains this spring. WoodRich app to condition the wood followed by WTW top coat to help seal in the paraffinic oil. Does anyone do this? Stripping. Of course no one strips any stain immediately after application. I asked the question to learn more about WTW stain. There is some ingedient in the formulation that makes it very difficult to remove initially. Do you know what or why that is? Russell, would you mind telling us? On the pavers spill. No doubt. That is because WTW formed a, ok, not a film, how about an "icing" on the surface and did not penetrate the substrate of the stone. RS or BGA would deeply penetrate the paver.As always, I welcome learning new things. Have never even seen another professional wood restoration company do its work. Lunch is on you at your barn, on me here in my neck of the woods.

Jeff, We're woodies, we like to debate and argue. Its fun. Anyway, what gave you the idea that Ken is a Republican? I thought he was poking Hillary. Naw, wait a minute, that was John T. He's a flatwork kinda guy. And she now lives in NY. So does John. Plenty of evidence. I can near guarantee that our President is a Ready Seal kind of guy. It's made in Texas, and paraffinic oil is a byproduct of refined petroleum. The Bush family is hand and glove with the oil industy and are long term Texans. Proof positive. VP **** Chaney on the other hand does not give a *amn. He thinks wood is for the weak and is a plastic composite type of guy. I believe Halliburton manufactures some of the chemicals used to manufacture the junk. Just goes to show, theres webs of influence and chicanery throughout. Can't trust anyone these days.

Ken, You state: Read a few posts back, you are the one who baited the waters. I gladly took the hook. If you are so bored, why the 5 paragraph response? PressurePros has a vested interest in pushing ESI's products. Aren't you starting to sell privately branded Wood Tux this year on the internet? Are you dropping Bakers Gray Away? For those that may not be informed, in addion to wood restoration and other cleaning services, Ken, the owner of PressurePros, retails stains and other ESI products online. Nothing wrong with that, actually it is admirable and a very nice fit to his service business. Ken, you are marketing ESI products, just as Beth & Rod did on this board a few years ago. Fine and good, just so the reading public understands the playing field. I have no ax to grind, I do not retail wood care products. This is slight and more a matter of semantics. I hold the view that any drying oil is "film forming" to a degree, not like an oil solid or acrylic, but compared to non drying paraffinic oil. Russell has stated that WTW is a linseed oil product, and if I recall conceded that it hardens on the wood surface. But this is small potatoes. The only reports I have about stripping WTW is the difficulty shortly after application. I believe Russell has also stated this. I know I could not remove some wayward drips that dried on a painted surface two days after application. WTW is very tough stuff. What ingedients are in the product that make it so difficult to initially clean up or remove? It is good for others to know that it can be easily stripped after two years with a wood cleaner. The point of my post was two fold. First, WTW is being marketed as a "wet wood" stain. See ESI's banner ad here on TGS. This is all well and good, and very smart. No doubt, for a first time customer, staining wet wood is no doubt a plus in scheduling. But in practice, who is using it on wet wood? You have stated in the past that you are waiting for wood to dry out before using WTW. I'm sure not at 12% moisture content, but why the wait at all? The second point was this "wet wood" advantage is a one time advantage. With exterior wood previously treated with Ready Seal, in most cases the maintenance stain can be applied the same day as cleaning. The wood does not retain the moisture from cleaning as there is still plenty of paraffinic oil in the wood and it dries quickly. If there is any consensus on paraffinics (ie: Ready Seal, Baker's Gray Away, TWP series) verses WTW and other stains is the ease and speed of application of paraffinics. This is both of benefit to my customers, as it keeps my labor costs to a minimum, and also of benefit to my business. My margins are higher on maintenance jobs, and my charges to my customer are substantially lower that if I used other types of wood stains. It is a win / win for both my customers and my business. And one step further. It is my belief, and this is shared by others, that paraffinic oils are superior for long term condition of exterior wood. This is important to me, and the long term interest of my customers. Please, you know this is false and out of line. Just because I choose not to use ESI's products does not mean I am against them. Within the past month, I have written in response to Russell, stuff like "I am sure ESI makes fine products" and "WTW may be the best thing since sliced bread". The only disparaging remarks I have ever made on any public board on any stain or wood care product is strong rants on exterior acrylic decking stains. I have also questioned the use of straight oxalic acid for brightening / neutralizing wood due to health concerns, when other effective, benign products are available.I am somewhat conservative by nature. Over the past 5 years a number of "wet wood" stains have come on the market. Some have been discontinued due to problems, and it appears that others have not gained much of a foothold among older, experienced wood contractors. Could WTW be the exception and the holy grail of exterior wood restoration? I don't know. I do not think that anyone does at the moment. Time will tell. I choose and have the patience to wait.

Ken, Well, an accurate retort is in order! As you well know, as well as others that have been doing wood for any length of time, these numerous "wet wood" stains are a one trick pony. Sure, first time preps and stains are a breeze, no moisture meter, just slop it on in the rain! What you, Russell, and maybe others certainly do not advertise, or some may not yet understand, is that maintenance, keeping your customers for the lifetime of your business is the name of this game. WTW and other filmers are like a reverse anuity. Big payoff the first time, more labor, expense, and costs for you and your customers there on out. A very short return indeed. This is my 3rd and last business. I'm in it for the long run. Once my customers are serviced correctly with a quality paraffinic oil stain, its easy street for both me and them every two years.

Bob's a great guy. Runs an honest, tight business that contractors can depend on. Fun to talk with when he has the time. Larry, Between your avatar and humpin' storm trooper, you are one sick dude! Welcome to TGS, we need more humor here.

Ken, Yeah, saw that. Precip. through mid week then clearing but cold at night. Daytime temps in the lower 50's. Normal early April. Won't get too far ahead with prep if staining gets delayed too long. About 2 weeks between prep and oil is ok, but after that it gets iffy. As you know everyone wants their wood done ASAP. Through the years I've always booked new customers first, and tried to hold off maintenance jobs for awhile. Might think about mixing that up a little next year early in the season. April can be big or mediocre. Depends on the weather. Got my first college kid starting 4/24 which is just about right. From there on out to mid August is the real push. Just hope we don't get 17 days straight of rain in July like last year.

Started the wood season here in NJ yesterday. Just got in from stripping an elevated cedar deck. Friggin' stairs gave me some exercise, I'm tired. Get to do the fascia Monday morning with my rolling scaffold. That should whip my old butt pretty good! But within a week should be back in woodie shape. But honestly, when that wood cleaned up nice, reminded me of why I do this. There is still a whole lot of satisfaction restoring exterior wood.

Hey Jeff, The Great Debate seems to be winding down to a close. Although I do not agree with you, I think you held your own admirably and definitely do not "SUCK at it." Maybe a bit wacky and wishful thinking at times, but...JUST KIDDING. For your fortitude in sticking with it, maybe this may help in the future. I collect quotes. Little ditties, wise sayings, etc. from the famous and obscure. I actually harvested one from you posted sometime ago on TGS that is hilarious. You get credit in the tag line. Anyway, heres one you may be able to use in the future as a retort or a left jab if their argument gets under your skin. Change as needed.

Spiker, That is a real good discussion that Ken posted as a link. Bookmark it and read through it every day for a week. Pricing varies throughout the country and even within regional markets due to many factors. Ken and Beth have taught me the power of demographics, and how to use this information to your advantage. Listen to Ken Fenner, he knows a ton about marketing and sales and has shared a lot on this and other web sites.

Kevin, You raise some interesting ideas and I've been somewhat stumped on the "why's" of some things I've seen in the field. For example, acrylic stains on exterior wood. Fail they do over time, maybe from wear, but possibly from temperature expansion and contraction. In temperate climates, air temperatures can vary 40 degrees F. over a 24 hr. period. My speculation has been that the hard, plastic like film will eventually develop micro cracks, allowing liquid water to penetrate into the wood. I have seen a clear cedar deck, rotting in areas from the inside towards the surface. Even vertical spindles, held together by the stain skin itself. Cedar you could poke your finger into. Rotten to the core. No standing water that day, but the Delmhorst moisture meter with pins in all the way off the chart. Pressure treated decks with acrylic stains, the wood so swelled there are no more gaps between deck boards. PT decks actually out of plumb and line due to wood expansion. Somehow, it seems liquid water or possibly vapor gets into the wood, and cannot escape. This is certainly not true for all acrylic coated exterior wood decks. And not knowing how the wood was prepped before the coating was applied may also be key. Is it possible that the wood was wet (ie. high moisture content) when the acrylic coating was applied and the water (vapor, liquid, whatever) could not escape? All I know is that I have seen some substantial damage from these coatings, including latex stains. Naturally led me early on in this business to avoid any exterior stains that form any type of "film".

Rod, A time warp? Has not WTW only been available for ~18 months to date? Not WT, the original dry wood formula. WTW, the stain you can apply to wet wood. And didn't ESI come out this year with a new stain made especially for hardwoods? Do not recall the name, but I believe Russell or someone posted about this on TGS. If ipe' is a hardwood, what do you say in the press release?

Jeff, Nothing nice about it. If we can't laugh at ourselves, our foibles, prejudices, and mindset, we're lost to mediocrity. Not in tune. And that is a wasted life. Dumb meat on an obscure planet. Philip is one smart puppy. Not necessarily right, but a thinker and a philosopher.

Mr. Jeff, I was dead serious. Anyone who has attained the wisdom to laugh at themselves is at heart a good human being. One of the first measures of greatness. GW obviously needs practice.

Glad this thread is back on track and fun again. Too many quotes to cite, but highlights are: Our token leftist Jeff says: Jeff come on, you are nearly as old as I am. GWB is with no doubt the worst political president in my lifetime. He eclipses Richard M. Nixon in the pantheon of bad politicians. Now Spiro Agnew is another story and in a class by himself. Horrifying. You further tip your hand by posting: Hah! Never play poker, you have "mark" written on your forehead! Bless you Jeff, you do have a sense of self depreciating humor. A sign of a good honest man. Never met you but I like you. Mafia Scott counters with a Thats a good left hook. I'll follow with a right uppercut. Ted Kennedy will ask you about childhood swimming lessons while muttering about big money and local judicial payoffs. The man is a buffoon and an embarrassment to the country, the senate, his state, and his poor, long suffering family. The poor Kennedy's. What a terrible fate of history to be left with Ted as a shameful living legacy.