RPetry

Matt says: I don't know, things are pretty relaxed here. Have fallen asleep with TGS in my face more than once. Beth & Rod have to put their foot down and rein in a bunch of wild cats once in a while. Keeps 'em busy and lets us peons know who's King and Queen of this site. Plus, they've managed to put up with me for quite some time. I've been waiting to "feel violated" by Beth for four years now. Come on, ya' little wood workin' minx, lets bump off Rod and go off an do a log cabin in the middle of the woods!

John stated: After the excellent presentation by Mr. Hindeliter last weekend at ACR, got me thinking a few things. For example, the Swabby 48 and its water reclaimation system. This may become a requirement in local juristictions over the next few years. Doesn't effect me, but I can see the marketing as well as regulatory compliance advantage. In wood restoration, on most residential jobs, rinse water goes into the ground instead of the storm sewer. That may be acceptable now, but how about the future? We also use questionable chemicals in quantity, specifically NaOH and oxalic acid. How long before environmental regulators cast a hardened eye in our direction? Being a relative newcomer in the PW industry, wood contractors are still below the radar. But one sure thing is that environmental regulation will only be more strict and pervasive in the future.

I just had Keith Bruce of KBK GraphX redesign my business cards to highlight a new website. He does very good work quickly and at reasonable cost. Just received the new cards yesterday via UPS and the quality and color of the graphics are very high. The fonts and printing look top notch and the cards themselves are very thick with an almost plastic finish on the printed face. Keith does a lot of work for the pressure washing industry, inclulding many manufacturers, so he knows this business well. Call (216) 338-3635 or go to KBK GraphX - Homepage

Anthony, I'm with Rod. NaOH will help but not completely remove heavy grease down into the wood substrate. A few treatments or a hot mix (test first) may help.

John, You say: I'm not sure what you mean. That first sentence was a "tongue in cheek" comment on the funny and often misinformed posts from others not named when a wood restoration guy mentions the use of bleach on TGS.I'm sure a bleach mix is fine for Trex or most other composites. I use bleach, most often on RS maintenance jobs. With this particular customer, I have used percarb on their Trex 3 times. The customer hates the Trex but loves my work. I'll only "slip" if I lose them as a customer or do damage to their decking boards.

Charlie, I think most of the composites are a combination of recycled plastics and wood particles. But there are so many manufacturers, I'm sure there are other materials now being used. This article may give you a good overview. Comparing Composites | Decking products proliferate, but differences remain

Randy, John, Mike, Jason, Texas Shane, and Diamond Jim have slipped again. Bleach, the lignin killer. Bleach, the bane of all percarb manufacturers. I use straight 100% sodium percarbonate to clean an ancient Trex deck. Done it 3 times in 6 years. Beat the *ell out of it with decent pressure without lap marks. The junk cleans to a disgusting brown like when it was originally installed. With a few weeks of sun, it goes back to a uniform, light gray color that my customer just loves. Point is, bleach has its uses. No doubt misuse can cause havoc. But learn from the BDA and those blessed with the secret handshake. This marks the 1st Anniversity of the Great Bleach Debate. Authority still has no answers. And old hands just shake their heads and smile. Many of those never post but just lurk here for entertainment. Behind every great fortune there is a crime. - Honore de Balzac There is more than our fair share of product nonsense, even in this small industry. Be armed and forewarned.

Jeffex11, Welcome to the board. You have been restoring exterior wood for 16 years? *ell man, you may be the most senior member here! There is a lot of information on various stains here and I recall a poll somewhere on this site that spelled out in numbers stain brand use. I, and many others, use Ready Seal stains. Reasons are many and more information can be gained at my still in development website, Windsor WoodCare - Wood restoration If you want to see photos of various colors on different species of wood, look through the photo galleries. Many quality contractors here use Wood Tux Wet stains. These are manufactured by Extreme Solutions, Inc. and their website is accessible via banner ad on the home page of this site.

Russell, A fine, well written reply and post. Come on man, give me a big virtual hug! Ah, thats better. See outsiders, woodies can be one big diverse family. Like any family we have our spats, disagreements, arguments, etc. But at the end of the day we can all sit at the dinner table in peace and contentment. Can't you just feel the love gushing over the wire and beaming through your monitor? Now this is just great. Makes me proud to be a woodie! Spring is just around the corner. Calls are coming in and orders are building up. Its that magic time of calm before the storm. And here we all repose in that warm, cozy glow of wood restorer brotherhood. What a wonderful moment! Of course next week we'll all be at each other's throats again! But hey, we can all have some fun with a bit of roughhousing. And there is and will continue to be some valuable information shared by all.

Russell, I assume we both speak, read, write, and hopefully comprehend the English language. What is painfully clear is that we interpret and retain what we have read differently. I tend to take writing somewhat literally, unless it is made in obvious jest. If I have mistaken your intent in your quoted statements, my fault and my sincere apologies. There is no need to repost your statement already quoted twice. Read it literally, and if you still do not understand my prior replies, fine. Let that dog lie. However, so you have no illusions of ill will, the following are a few responses to your above post. You say: Forgive me Russell, but where the frick did I attack ESI products? Or anywhere on TGS in the nearly 4 years that I have been a member. Quite the contrary, please read... I stated the following: Yet further on in the same post, I stated: Kindly point out my "attacks" on WTW or any ESI product. I am confident ESI makes fine products. The fact that I do not currently use them does not mean I'm "against" them.Another response. You ask : Unless the moderator(s) deleted my original post, I thought I did just that. Let me see here, ah yes, as follows: Yet further on for good measure: Either I'm writing with digital invisible ink or you are responding without so much as reading my posts.Lastly, my apologies if you truly believe I have questioned your personal integrity. Although you and I have never met in person, we have had some long conversations, both intense, and good, in the past. We might not be "friends" in the traditional sense of the word, but more like respectful colleagues. What my intent has been on this thread is to question yours, and others, marketing, and in some cases behavioral tactics. Bear with me, its time to clear the air, and much overdue. So far, I, and maybe others have let sleeping dogs lie. One caveat, I am only speaking as Rick Petry. Others may agree or disagree and chime in as warranted. As you so aptly put, it is an open discussion board. This all kind of started when Beth & Rod were product distributors. ESI was their primary chemicals supplier and the original WT was their, if I remember correctly, only stain that they sold through distribution. Naturally, and more power to them, they used TGS to market their wares. Fine, no foul, its their site and thats great marketing. With time and efforts, new and some old time contractors tried the product. TGS built a base of customers for ESI and I'm sure you are grateful. Some of us relative old timers purchased some stain, and went back to our old tried and true ways. Others, and newer contractors in the business continued on with WT and eventually WTW. All fine and good. Competition and new ideas in products is one factor in what makes our economy great. But the condescending, in your face, "I'm making more money than you" posts since then from some of WTW contractors and you as ESI, has been irritating in the least, and at times, more than disingenuous. Put the shoe on the other foot for a moment. Believe it or not, this board generates a bit business for me. I have gotten and will continue to get real, paying, fine customers off this site. These customers find my little business by reading this stuff. It has only happened once thus far, but when you get a misinformed, confused, and befuddled customer questioning my business during a sales call, you can imagine that I might be just a little *issed. How about the newbies? Theres a ton of 'em. They get fed a lot of product marketing misinformation here and slop on some WTW without having a clue how to prep wood or apply an admittedly difficult product. This is not only bad for ESI, but reflects on this fledgling industy as a whole. They don't even know what a pigment is! And, while I'm on a roll, the rain. Those of you that take great glee in kicking others when the weather is sour and "sticking it" to others should be ashamed. Take stock in what you post and how you affect others. Four examples, believe them or not. No names, no faces. A very good contractor in my area has been specializing in exterior wood restoration for more than a decade, after being a painting contractor for many years. He uses, and continues to use, a paraffinic oil stain. Last summer I attended and contributed to a mini "summit" on wood restoration standards. The host of this meeting, probably the longest in business contractor I have ever met, recently switched his product line to a paraffinic oil. Another attendee at that meeting, who started his business in North Dakota of all places, has expanded with operations throughout the Chicago area. He has been using a paraffinic oil stain for years. I correspond at times with a retired wood restoration contractor in the Southwest. He recently sold his business. At that time he had built up 28 separate locations around the US that specialized in exterior wood restoration. Near the end of his no less than "wood empire", he switched all of these locations to a paraffinic oil stain. ESI manufactures a paraffinic oil stain. I would assume you do not produce and distribute inferior products. These examples are not meant to convince anyone that RS or Wooodrich or Baker's or TWP is superior or better than ESI's WTW or any other stain. It is only to show that in this business, as in any others, there are numerous ways to skin a cat. Look Russell, WTW may be the greatest stain in history for contractors and customers. In all aspects, I do not think that anyone knows. Claims are fine but the testing of time will tell. I am not so stupid as to deny the benefits of innovation, but I believe that until proven, be a bit sceptical, and bide your time. Too may product "innovations" in the immediate past have become nightmares and pulled from the market. Comes with getting old. I promise to be the first in line when and if WTW or any other new product proves its stuff. But until then, everyone, please show some decorum and charity to your fellow contractors. _________________________________________________ As a side note for any newbies or consumers. There is a winter plague in this business. Its called stir crazy and watching your business account balances decend. March madness, woodies gone wild, call it what you will. We always have these spats. Its normal. Check out last year's Great Bleach Debate here on TGS. Now that was a hoot and a true classic. Contractors yelling at each other, epitaths thrown left and right, inuendos and nonsense galore. Please believe that this is calm and refined in comparison. For anyone, especially those going to ACR this weekend, I'd be honored and pleased to meet each and everyone of you, especially fellow woodies. We are a breed apart, and just love our craft. And we all try our best to do the finest work possible.

Russell, Please. I know that you are a smart guy, and can read with the best of them. Let me try again, highlighting your untrue statement. Again, I ask you, please tell us what premium grade exterior wood stain requires yearly maintenance.Both you and various WTW advocates have stated or insinuated similar inaccuracies over the past few years here on TGS. It has become some kind of marketing mantra that is patently false. In your last post you stated... That is all fine and good, most old hands here know this. As long as Beth & Rod allow this on their website, more power to you and ESI. But if you are going to take advantage of their largess, please be truthful. In no uncertain terms, your posted statement claims WTW lasts 2 to 3 times as long as other exterior wood stains, because other wood stains only last 1 year.Look, ESI's WTW may be the best thing since the proverbial sliced bread. I don't know and don't think anyone else does at the moment. The product has not been used in the field long enough for any kind of rigorous evaluation. But I am sure that it is a good product that can stand on its own merits. If so, WTW deserves better marketing than specious claims directly aimed at tearing down competitors. Now, how about that lunch?

Jon, That is downright amazing and its being sent to friends right now. You forgot the punch line, if there is one. What, if anything, does it mean if in fact one can read it like any other writing? I'm almost afraid to ask!

Paul says: Amen to that. Same here, even if the money's good, just don't care for spraying water. Funny how woodies work. Maintenance jobs for us are much more profitable than initial prep and stain. Labor alone is on average ~ 40% less. Russell says: Russell, this is disingenuous and quite frankly nonsense. WTW may very well last 3 yrs., don't know as I've only used it once. But name one premium, specialty exterior wood stain that requires yearly maintenance, at least here in the northeast U.S. Baker's Gray Away?, Ready Seal?, Woodrich? If any contractor using these stains had to redo their work every year, in normal markets they would soon be out of business. Any contractor that has had this lifetime with these stains either does not have a clue on how to prep the wood correctly, does not know or care what a moisture meter is, or is so cheaply priced that they can't afford to put the required amount of stain into the wood the first time around. I have been using RS for years, and have had one, yes one, deck that needed more oil the following year. This was a cedar restoration that required a Makita and 12 defelting pads to get rid of virtual globs of old stain. The wood was "burnished", similar to a hard sanding with 120 grit. RS is a two year stain. Baker's Gray Away is a two year stain. I would assume Woodrich is a two year stain. Enough of this misinformation so prevalent here on TGS. It's B.S. and anyone specializing in exterior wood for any length of time should know it. Russell, tell you what. Next time you are in this area, lets have lunch. This is a friendly, open invitation and I'm serious. I'll buy. We will go over to a beautiful neighborhood that I work in outside of Princeton. There is one deck that gets full sun and was stained with RS in May 2005. No more than 50 yards further on, is a shaded deck that was stained with WTW in Nov. 2005. Same builder, same wood, constructed at the same time, aside from exposure, virtually the same deck. Lets take a good look at the wood. I'm sure you could teach me something, always more than willing to learn. And not afraid to admit I'm wrong.

Rod, What did I say to convince you that I had no imagination or metaphysical interests? Every coin has two sides. Todd, You and the article miss the point. I clearly stated in the above post "Tend to believe Carlos Castenada and his mythical Don Juan." It does not matter if Don Juan, Jesus, Budda, Mohammed, Jim Jones or a thousand other prophets were correct or "real". You make the common mistake of tying reality to belief. Actually, Hunter Thompson is worthy of consideration. "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" was a virtual anthem for a generation. "The Curse of Lono" cemented his place in the graveyard of modern thought. Hunter shot himself through the head, was burned to a crisp, then shot out of a cannon. Now that deserves anyones' utmost respect and reverence. That is reality with a huge dose of absurd belief. Very worthy in my opinion.

Todd, Thanks for the reply. Did a search of my 20 county libraries and could not find a book by Anderson, Uell S. A title search under "Three Magic Words" also produced no results. Surprising, but then again this is NJ. Guess its a few bucks to Amazon or remain in ignorance. A recommended read? Never mind, that is a very stupid question.

Todd, Nice find and post. Not that I agree with metaphysical wanderings by specious authors. Tend to believe Carlos Castenada and his mythical Don Juan. Just a hunch and a prayer. Enlightenment is everywhere if you open your eyes. Or eat enough mushrooms.

Steven, It depends on the type of work you mainly perform. I only work on exterior wood. GPM is primary, as wood cannot take high pressure water without damage. For flatwork, house washes, fleets, etc., do not have a clue. Don't discount the cost of a Hydro-tek. In my experience, its the best investment you can make in pressure washers.

Israel, IMO, a Decker 5'er with the Pump Tec pump has no equal for stain spraying. With adjustable pressure, continuous pump, and flow control on the wand, its a no brainer. Had a TGS member's brother in law use mine last year to spray his fence. Took him less time than me cleaning it and he never had overspray or worked up a sweat. Priceless.

Jon, The above deck in the pictures was not sanded. Merely stripped with NaOH. I agree with you on the problem jobs I have seen. Sanding is not an option. I think Dan may have a possible solution with a bleach treatment. I'll give it a try the next time I run into one of these Behr's nightmares.

Steven, The company in Pa. you are looking for is ACR Products, Inc. in Easton, Pa. Tele. (610) 253-8005, web site ACR Products, Easton PA - Power Washers, Waste Heaters, and Supplys. acrproducts.com Owners are Tom and Barbara Vogel, just terrific people to do business with. Tom can fabricate and install anything from a custom wand to a full trailer or box truck setup for pressure washing. Their prices are more than competitive and service is outstanding. Better yet, if you can get away next weekend, ACR is hosting a 2 day roundtable for contractors. You'll get to meet fellow pressure washers, learn a lot, and maybe get some good advice on an ideal machine for your trailer setup.

Jon, Is the first picture after WTW was applied? Man, that is bad looking. Think you may have run into what I suspect is impregnated mold/mildew stains below the substrate due to the infamous Behr bad mildewcide problem. Thats a mouthful but I've seen it before. Had a shurflo leak a 1/2 cup or so of med. hot NaOH on one of these decks overnight. That got rid of the deep discoloring in the wood at that one spot. But short of having someone spray stripper continuously for 12 hrs. straight, or dismantling the deck and planing each board, I know of no solution. The few problem decks I've run into had stains much deeper than reasonable sanding could remove. Attached are two pics of a Behr problem deck. The first is after stripping/brightening, with the balustrade partially stained. You can see the "muddled" coloring of the wood on the steps and floor boards. Also, if you look closely, the stained balustrade spindles and top handrail are still discolored. Second pic is after staining. Again, discoloration is obvious, but not as bad as your picture. Stain is Ready Seal med. red on pressure treated.

Another good post. Diamond Jim says: Butchers are everywhere, craftsmen are rare. Be a craftsman if your market allows it. It pays dividends.

Rod posted: That is great stuff. Seen it often, never had the experience/empathy to put it into words or conscious thought. Good post. TGS keeps giving...

Rod asks: Timing could not be better. I hope the markets drop like a rock for the next 5 -6 weeks. Roth IRA contribution time is near, you wiil get more equity for your yearly tax break buck. Unless you are a trader caught on the wrong side, long using margin, need liquid capital fast, or just another weak hand that has no faith in the future and no stomach for investing, this means nothing. Would not suggest selling bonds or other vehicles at the moment and throw it into the stock markets, those opportunities come around when the averages tank 20% or more. When the blood is running in the streets. When every pundit wails about the coming next great depression. When Ma and Pa Kettle finally throw in the towel and liquidate. Thats when you get aggressive on the long side for the long term. For the average Joe, stock market money should be long term money, a minimum horizon of 10 years. Retirement money, not rent money. Thats what's known as investing, as opposed to trading or speculation. Anyone with that time frame who gets upset or concerned over a quick dip in prices has no business being in the equities markets or understanding of investing. Savings bonds would be a more appropriate vehicle.

I'm in for the complete weekend.