RPetry

Tom, Don't despair. What they didn't tell you in Websites for Dummies is that these things, once created, start living a life of their own. Like children, but worse! Attention, little details, content changes, ya da ya da. Welcome to website hell. Another unsuspecting victim! Actually, its not that bad if you are interested in learning new stuff. Keep at it, it does become easier. If you want, email me at the address below and I'll send you a link to a photo gallery I have finished coding. Look at the code, grab a thumbnail or two off the site, and study the format, size, and presentation. Assuming the original images are of good quality, thumbnails can look very presentable.

Rod, Certainly no offense taken. I am a bit ticked off at Russell for implying linseed oil is an innocuous ingredient in exterior wood stains. May be that if the formulations are correct, the problems with linseed oil can be mitigated. But as a base oil in and of itself, linseed oil is nothing but trouble. This I have not noticed. Have stripped many linseed oil CWF's, Wolman's, Behr's etc. without any perceived problem. Cabot's Aussie Oil is an exception, but I think the tung oil in the product may be the culprit.Another exception is wood that was previously treated with one of the Behr's stains implicated in the lawsuit. Mildew stains are deep into the wood. Left a shurflo with F-18 overnight on the deck surface of a job and the wand leaked a cup or so of stripper. Came back the next morning and the deep mildew stains in that one spot were gone. Of course, it probably was about the worse thing possible for the wood, guess I'll find out this season when I do a maintenance. Hope there's not a hole in the wood! Rod, could you please clarify? I'm not sure what "warm honey gold" is.

Rod, Whatever. The fact remains that thousands of board feet of wood rotted due to inadequate mildewcide / fungicide in the linseed oil based Behr's stains. The point is that linseed oil is a viable food source for molds and mildew that can cause real and destructive damage to exterior wood unless properly formulated. Russell, Another question if you are still on board in this discussion. Don't need the particulars but percentage / weight / volume wise, does more quantity of mildewcide and/or fungicide need to be mixed into ESI's linseed oil stains compared to ESI's paraffinic oil based stains?

Tom, I'm coding a website currently for the first time and will be doing the same thing...throwing it up to the wolves to let 'em tear it apart! So don't take any criticism personally, like I probably will! BTW, I'm using Firefox and the linux OS, as well as IE and Windoz on a laptop. Different browsers, different problems... Content - Beth and I are on the same wavelength. A Fun page does not fit in on a business web site. First thing I noticed. Home page - Firefox. Spacing problem at tele. #. Looks like "at (630)" on same line with a large space between "at" and "(630)". Quick Link Before/After Deck pics - both IE & Firefox. Thumbnails need work, very unclear and bad resolution. Full size pics fine. Things You Should Know - Firefox & IE. Too much whitespace in 2 areas. Tighten it up. Company - Firefox & IE. Same problem with the thumbnail pics. Need better quality. May want to use jpegs instead of gifs? Google it! Services - thumbnails again, guess its a site wide problem. All listed services have pics except Wood Care, which has the "Quick Link" on the home page. May want to consider standardizing format/layout & put deck pics with Wood Care. I'd look around the web and find more info on formatting thumbnails. Did not check full size pics aside from a few in Wood but would guess they are fine.

Trying to build a web site and drinking beer. Wood season will hopefully start in 6 weeks or so.

Russell, Ain't that the truth. Appearance is primary for most customers. But good pigments do protect wood. At least here in the Northeast, western red cedar seems to be more damaged over time from UV than moisture. I'll pass on that offer. Dan said: This was not a settlement about appearance. The cause was not enough mildewcide. The effect and huge settlement was due to rotted wood. Due to the unmildewcided linseed oil, the wood was impregnated and rotted from molds/mildew. Homeowner's had to replace full decks and wood siding.

Russell, Good stuff. Which side of the equation is more important? As written, pigment would give you a higher ratio. Is the holy grail just enough resin to "bind" the amout of pigment desired, or the opposite? Finally, a definition that makes sense. Been doing this for a while and never could figure out the difference between stain and sealer. Bet most contractors can't either. Kudos, great stuff. Really, now thats interesting and unknown to me. What type of oils are typical and how / why are they modified? I must question the veracity of this statement. Why the Behr's monster class action settlement (after going to trial) and why do I still see mildew stained Behr's treated wood years later? No corporation settles for 150 million on a whim. The courts found Behr's negligent for failing to put adequate mildewcides in some of their product lines. All product lines in the judgement were linseed based exterior oil stains.

Russell, Thanks much theres a lot of info in your post. Yeah, trash the "carrier", no question it is the oil, I meant to write "binder". Very good description on the old "my solid is better than yours" nonsense. Due to the new VOC regs, I would assume that nearly all manufacturer's must up the non-evaporative, non-volitile solids measurements to comply. How are they doing that? Some type of inert "filler"? Resins. Now it gets interesting. From what little I think I know, do resins act as a "binder", in other words, marrying all other ingedients together? This is my impression. If so, there is a close and important symbiotic relationship between resins and pigment. And typically, what are these resins made of? If you care to elaborate, I'm all ears. Be forwarnded, if you reply, more questions will be forthcoming. Hah, can't imagine that! Thanks.

Russell, Good post. This could be a real valuable thread. If you do not mind being the professor of Stain 101, I'll take advantage. A few points. As most of us are using primarily semi-trans oil stains, I suggest we keep the discussion focused towards these product types. Also, many of us may not have a fundamental understanding of stain composition. If you have the time and are willing to help educate, can we start near the beginning? First question. It is my understanding that the primary ingredients of semi-trans. stains consist of oils, resins, solvents or "carrier", and pigments. Would you kindly explain the primary ingredients, examples of each, the purposes of each, and how they work together? Nothing elaborate, just the basics in layman's terms please. Thanks.

In NJ, I drink copius amounts of spirits, try and stay warm, and think of all the freekin! jobs lined up for the spring.

Philip, Thanks for your reply. My more specific question is trying to determine if there is any chemical or I guess physical characteristic relationship between paraffinic oil and paraffin wax.

Rod, Yet another stellar post. Do you have this stuff written down somewhere or is this all in your head? The FPL Wood Handbook needs some serious updating. Wisc. should be calling! Dan, Sometimes the best evidence is by example. Maybe 5 years ago, Behr's settled a class action lawsuit for an amount north of $150 million due to not enough mildewcide in some of their linseed oil exterior wood stains. Exterior wood was being severely damaged, and in some areas of the Pacific Northwest actually rotting, due to poorly formulated products. I see this wood every season in NJ. Unless you want to NaOH soak for hours, this wood is permanently mottled and discolored by deep mildew stains.

Beth, Just noticed that TGS just passed a 9,000 thread count. Congratulations on creating and maintaining such a popular web site. Soon you'll need a dedicated server at A Small Orange - Web Hosting, Software and more!! BTW, you should be getting a small credit to SDR's account. I signed up for a year long home with ASO yesterday.

Rod, Good points on practical properties of linseed oil. A few more. First, linseed oil in general is a relatively inexpensive product to purchase in quantity. This is why so many ext. stain manufacturers use it. Second, as most know, it is a veritable feast for molds and mildews. This is why the stain manu's have to load up their products with mildewcide(s). IMO, linseed based semi-trans ext. wood stains are inferior to other available products. More descriptive might be Home Depot consumer grade. Tung oil is another animal. Tough stuff that really binds in the substrate of wood. But has the unfortunate property of being difficult to remove.

Good luck Philip. Occupation "U" turns can be a good call. Came from designing and developing db applicaions into wood restoration. Learning code for web site creation has kind of renewed my interest in programming. "I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them." --Isaac Asimov (1920 - 1992) You'll probably get back into IT with a vengence.

No matter what one's political leaning or foreign policy ideas are, the fact is this. Right or wrong, The United States has actively and without question, occupied a foreign sovereign nation and destroyed its former government. Without stability and standing institutions, it would be a moral failing and historical tragedy to abandon our responsibility. At the moment, that requires military as well as financial underpinning. "To be conservative at 20 is heartless and to be a liberal at 60 is plain idiocy." -- Winston Churchill

Jim, Welcome back to the land of the living. Give 'em hell.

Shane, Hah! Nice find. Ed Burke is a bit inexperienced in actually doing any exterior wood work, but I still believe his heart is in the right place. Ken, Oh man, you have just stirred the proverbial hornet's nest. I'll back off for a while but responses are sure to be entertaining. This could supercede the fond, infamous BLEECH thread. Godzilla vrs. Mothra, Ali fightin' Fraiser, Yin and Yang.

Rod, Another stellar exposition on stains and wood. Nice job. This still has me confused. I mean I use a lot of RS, and have for the past 3 yrs. I've read and been advised that due to the paraffinic oil in the product, the stain remains in a liquid state in the substrate after application. Thus the oil prevents moisture from penetrating. Now the kicker. I find no characteristic of what I know of "wax" in or about the stain. When I experience what I think is wax, its like a candle. A solid to be sure, but malleable. After weeks of exposure to air and warm temps, RS will kind of harden into a solid on my Decker 5'er. But there's nothing "waxy" about it! jnoden wrote: Great supposition and is confirmed by my experience. Immediately after application, RS beads water. Seen it a bunch of times with summer showers. But after time, and I do not know how long. water kind of "sheens" on the surface of the wood.Is the generic term "wax" not necessarily what a non chemist thinks is wax? I don't know. Where's Peirce or Russell? When I think about it, why would anyone care? Funny, you can tell when Northern US woodies are getting restless. Can't work yet, spring schedule is filling up, the bank account is dwindling, and too much time on our hands. If I recall, the great BLEECH debate started about this time last year. That was a classic and belongs in The Grime Scene Thread Hall of Fame.

Rod, Good post. I still have not figured out the difference, or even if there is a difference, between paraffin oil and paraffinic oil. And further, what if any relationship is there to paraffin wax? Its very confusing. All I know is I use a lot of it or something like it! Jnoden, The Forest Products Lab has some information you may find helpful. See: http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/finlines/willi95a.pdf Its worth a bookmark.

Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job. --Douglas Adams

Cat, Maybe easiest, but not when the cedar is rotting underfoot.

Ken, Careful what you wish for. Failing CWF generates more calls to my wood restoration business than any other product.

Larry, NO! and YES!. You are correct, there is no need to ever strip RS. Even if an existing customer wants a much lighter color, a percarb cleaner with a bit of pressure or scrubbing will take a lot of weathered 2 yr. old pigment off the surface. On maintenance I now use a light bleach/soap wash, as IMO percarbs are a bit too aggressive in removing remaining pigment and surface oil. A RS maintenance is a simple replenishment of product. There's a lot of benefits to using RS, and again you are right, no more stripping is near the top of the list. I was responding to Tom's specific question. He seems to have used Sherwin Williams, Pittburgh Paints (do they make exterior wood stains?) and Lord forbid, Behr's for the first two years of his business. His repeat customers are going to get a pleasant surprise if he restains their decks with Ready Seal.

Tom, Cannot lend any info on Ben Moore stains, but I do know a bit about Ready Seal. For nearly all of our jobs, it is the only stain we use. Unless there is virtually no stain left on your maintenance jobs, it is probably best to strip the wood. Strength, dwell time, and pressure is another subject, but unless there is another compatible, paraffinic oil stain already in the wood, strip it. Ready Seal is a true penetrating stain, and requires raw wood for the first application. Two other tips. Make sure you have a moisture meter and use it. The first time treating exterior wood with Ready Seal, do not skimp on stain. Two wet on wet or even better, wet on dry applications, are best. Your customers will have the best looking wood in the neighborhood. Evaluate each job at the two year mark. Dependent on wood species, sun exposure, and climate, the wood typically requires a very light cleaning and more Ready Seal applied (ballpark, ~60% of the amount first used). I cannot tell you how much to charge, but I guarantee the labor and materials are substantially less on retreatment as opposed to the initial hard clean or stripping and oiling. Think in the range of 30 - 40% less. And the best of all, one of the key features of using Ready Seal, you will never have to strip the wood again.