RPetry

Ken, My mistake. From your post I thought you meant that you cleaned them for three years, not stained them. No wonder they couldn't be stripped! Maybe I'm just too picky. In all honesty, if it was up to me, I'd just let the ipe weather naturally forever and aside from a yearly light cleaning, never touch the teak. But I'm married and thats just not going to happen! I've managed to wrangle a 4 month reprieve on the ipe' and a year or two on the teak, but she wants it oiled. Last year after the first app of Aussie oil, cleaned the deck and took a look. Same situation, uneven finish on the floor. Determined that it was best to strip and try again. Should have sanded last year though. You know I'm not a fan of any exterior stains that form a film on decks. It would seem to me that after numerous applications, you are just building up the finish and not really getting much of anything into the wood. I would think that the constant addition of pigments is sooner or later going to start hiding the grain of the wood. This is speculation, not experience. But I'm not going to try it on my deck or any longer on customer's hardwoods. Because if there is a future problem how do you fix it? You're kind of stuck. And this "unbreakable" bond of tung oil to the wood could be a real problem. Who knows, who cares, we all just do what we think is best. Starting this year, I'm trying a different approach to hardwoods. Won't know if it works or not for a few years but I do know I will not have an unsolvable problem in the future.

Brent, Chinese finger trap and chicken before the egg? This stuff can drive you crazy. Did the silicone from the mats actually stain the ipe' or did it somehow act as a protective barrier not allowing the stripper to get to the tung and/or linseed oil? In any event, sanding did not get the discolored area out of the wood. The entire ipe' deck had to be sanded. This is after a strip with F-18 Max at 10 oz./gal., a fairly strong mix. On a single very light application of Aussie oil applied by hand with lambswool, that was 10 months old. On a deck that gets full sun virtually all day. Something is in the product preventing decent stripping. Earlier in this thread, Ken Fenner stated that he could not strip 3 yr. old Aussie oil from his mahogany spindles. Jim Foley above had to strip ipe' twice at high pressure to try and remove Aussie oil, and did not know the results. I think the likely suspect is the tung oil, which you so well pointed out. Dan, On premium hardwoods, this just does not work, at least for me and certainly for my customers. We paid a ton of money for these woods. Some, like ipe' and teak, really do not need a finish. Parts of the Atlantic City, NJ boardwalk were rebuilt with ipe' 25 years ago. The wood has never seen a finish, and is still in great shape today. But if you want to highlight the wood, and are willing to do all the maintenance required, the wood has to look great. Cabot's Austrailian Timber Oil has been marketed and ballyhooed as the best treatment for exterior hardwoods. Take a look at my first picture posted on this thread. After 10 months, the Aussie oil is fine in some areas, failed or non-existant in some areas, and heavily pigmented in the shaded and sillycone mat areas. If the deck was cleaned and Aussie oil reapplied, the deck would be very "blotchy" or uneven looking. And building up a finish over any uneven, failing finish is not a great idea. Sooner or later with film finishes, the wood will have to be stripped. I can hardly imagine the nightmare of stripping multiple applications of Aussie oil, one was bad enough. One could use a solid pigmented oil stain or god forbid, an solid acrylic finish on the wood and the finish may have better longetivity. But why would anyone do that to a premium hardwood? May as well have built the deck with less expensive pressure treated lumber. I've been told that Wood Tux is a linseed based oil stain. I know Ready Seal is a paraffinic oil, a man made oil produced from petroleum distillates.

Brent, Perfect. Great job. Thanks. Certainly makes a lot of sense. Those two spots under the mats were, and still are, by far the worst areas. Shaded areas ( there's a 4' overhang by the wall) were tough but not as bad. A PVC enclad umbrella stand, as well as under the old table were tough, but no where near the problem with the friggin' mats. Sillycone! Isn't some major manu. using it in stains? I still stand by my original complaint. If you cannot strip off one coat of Aussie oil without sanding on a ipe' deck that gets full sun, I do not want to use the product.

Cabot's Austrailian Timber Oil, mahogany flame color, on ipe'. After two serious sodium hydroxide strips, and a hard sanding with 60 grit, the results. I will never use this stain again.

Shane, Yeah, I would think with your high temps and humidity in the Houson area being near the Gulf. From what I have been able to dig up, linseed oil is the perfect food for mold and mildew. As its cheap and readily available, these stain manus use it and throw in a bunch of mildewcides to counteract the mold problem. I'm not going to use any product, any more, on any wood, with linseed oil. There are better oils for exterior wood.

Shane, Took a quick look, it seems like another spinoff of ipe'. Not as hard or dense, another species, but similar. I'd tell him to let it sit for awhile, maybe four months. Then a light bleech! clean. It will dry fast, take a break. Use a lambswool pad and Baker's (paraffinic oil, bless you!) application, very little stain, on the wood. Might have to come back in 6 months or so do do another oiling. I think the trick is to build up enough oil in these hardwoods to keep maintenance down. May take a while though because these woods can be difficult to get much oil into the wood.

Shane, Nah. Never could get the correct feel and control of a belt sander. After stripping the bejesus out of a few areas, used not 50 but 60 grit Klingspor on a 7" random orbital Porter Cable. Knee pads, time, and dirty work but worth it for good wood. There is still some discolored wood where the umbrella stand and half moon mats were. Even after sanding. From Dan's post above I guess it may be the tung oil. All I understand at this point is to avoid Assie oil on hardwoods from now on. I know you don't see a lot of strange hardwoods down your way but I bet they are coming. The market is just getting flooded with all sorts of weird S. American and Asian wood.

Jeff, Do a web search on Hydrotek and give them a call tomorrow. They are fabricated in Ca. , not too far from Az. My distributor carries them but you are a long way from NJ/Pa. and the shipping would probably be too expensive.

Bill, Thanks, it is a craft. There is no sense in working this hard, for minimal financial retrurn, without enjoying wood and trying to do the best work possible. Trying to learn and fathom the wheat from the chaff can be daunting, but I'm willing to try. Dan, Wow. You are the diamond in the rough. It is starting to make a lot of sense. I always wondered why so many exterior stain manus used linseed oil, thought it was because it was cheap, available, and throw in a lot of mildewcides and it was good to go. Now I am beginning to get the picture. Sure do. Every linseed oil based stain I've encountered forms a film. I have learned at some personal cost, to avoid them like the plague. Yeah, tung oil for exterior wood and Aussie Oil is out. Been there, done that, and will be paying the price for a while with maintenance customers. Funny you mention Spar Varnish, I was applying it today on sanded bare wood slats for my old Weber grill. It certainly did not strip with NaOH, but at least got the old grease off. Mineral spirits wipe, three coats with a 220 grit sand in between, and the grill is ready for another 4 yrs. Your knowlege and my limited experience, confirms what I have seen on the job. Linseed and certainly tung oil is a no go on exterior wood. Thanks for your enlightenment.

Bill, Its not me. There are other folks both here and on BBS's gone by that have taught me a lot about wood. There's a guy on this board with a stupid bird on his head that may just know more about exterior wood than all of us. Mike, Agree with the tung, I guess. Aussie oil is the only exterior stain that I have seen with tung. I'm also a bit perplexed with this long oil stuff. Guess its some kind of resin or some such. The one thing I do know, is if I can't strip it normally, let alone sand it out of the wood, I'm not using it again. Period. Just have to figure out what to do with my existing hardwood customers.

Diamond Jim, Not in my limited experience in this area. The new ACQ PT wood takes RS very well, a lot maybe a bit more than the old CCA. Also, not as much "green" tinit to the wood.

Stripped and sanded ipe' deck with new Indonesian plantation teak set. After a sodium hydroxide stripping (actually two in some areas) and a sanding, this ipe' deck is getting a break for awhile and weather naturally. I'm tired of beating up on good wood. The teak is very oily to the touch and deserves to acclimate and just weather for a while. Anything else would be an intervention into the nature and properties of the wood. Maybe in 12 or 24 months the teak will get a light cleaning and some oil. Anything else before that time would be not be necessary or right for the wood. The ipe' also deserves some respect. After two applications of Cabot's Austrailian Timber Oil, two (or three in some areas) NaOH strippings and a sanding, the wood has just been beat up. It needs a rest and natural time to be ipe'. Maybe 4 months or so. Enough. Some woods deserve time to age and adjust to the environment. Chems and stains are proper with many woods, but not for others. Some woods, like wines, just should be allowed to age and mellow gracefully. At the proper time in the future, both woods will be washed with a light bleach mix and hose pressure rinsed. They will both be easily oiled, and it sure will not be Cabot's Aussie oil.

If you dress up like this for Halloween, you may be a p'washer...

Dan, In most cases, I do not think anyone on purpose would waste your or my time. At least in my area, time is at a premium. Between jobs, kids, and the myrad of other things in life, a lot of people are just frantic. If it is not a direct referral, I kind of prescreen my calls. If it sounds like a shopper, I generally suggest a handyman might better fit their needs. If the potential customer is at least somewhat serious about their wood, I will come out to do an estimate but only if someone is there. No hard sell sales pitch, no nonsense. Patiently explain what we do and why, the products we use, and what to expect. Show pics of before and after jobs. Write up a preliminary cost estimate, discuss it with the customer, and email a contract and cover letter within a few days. Seems to work for me. Two thirds of my in person estimates are closed. But I'm in a good area with more disposable income than time, so that makes a difference. Wood only is a tough business. It takes at least 5 yrs. to build up a reputation and a client base.

Dan, I've run into similar situations. Typically a 30 something married couple, no children, and both white collar professionals. Live in a McMansion without furniture. Many in this area have played the trade up real estate game over the years and have acquired large homes with heavy mortgages. As long as the sellers market is strong and prices are rising, they sell and rebuy every few years. Profits are reinvested in a larger property. What can be worrying is when the market cools off and interest rates increase. Kind of like the old game of musical chairs. One job loss and it is impossible to keep up the mortgage payments. I also think many people have borrowed against the equity in their homes. Being property rich and cash poor is a dicey situation. Restoring their exterior wood is the least of their problems.

S & J, You may want to consider using a separate Shurflo pump setup for strippers, cleaners, and brighteners. I only use my Decker 5 for Ready Seal stains. The only time it is flushed or cleaned out is at the end of the season for winterizing.

Brent, Thanks. Understanding is half the battle! Knew it was not the linseed oil. Seems that most oil based exterior stains are linseed based and most are easily strippable. The tung oil is a likely suspect. Aussie Oil is the only exterior wood stain that I can recall using tung. I know many interior wood stains that use it but not exterior. I appreciate the analogy of the chinese finger trap, very descriptive. Don't pretend to understand a lot of the chemistry but would like to learn a little. The listing of a long-oil alkylid in the ATO ingredients has me a bit puzzled. Figure it must be a man made ingredient, most probably a resin. What exactly is a resin? I understand that linseed is a "long oil", but I guess not a alkylid or a resin. Very confusing. The second picture was taken after sanding. There are darker areas to the right of the grill and towards the top of the picture. After two strips and sanding on ipe', one of the hardest woods that I know of, and the wood is still discolored. Something is foul in Aussie oil. Now I just have to figure out an effective way to get it off my customers wood.

Poop is correct. Even after stripping twice in a few areas and sanding with 50 grit, the ipe' in spots is still discolored. Areas next to the grill where there was a half moon doormat and under the umbrella stand are dark. What is in this stuff? The Cabot tech sheets say linseed and tung oil, along with long-oil alkyds. Could it be these alkyds? The limited information I found using Google indicates these so called long-oil alkyds are used in producing ink and many paints, including enamels. Arggg! What has me worried is that I have a lot of hardwood customers that I used Aussie Oil on their wood. Now what?

Chris, This is my third year of using Ready Seal, and will not use any other stain on any species of wood. There are some other brands of paraffinic oil stains such as Baker's Gray Away and some series of TWP stains, and I would assume they all have the same properties as Ready Seal. First the downside. The wood must be prepped correctly and very dry before application. Any and all previous stains must be completely removed. Moisture content of the wood must be at 12% or less. On pressure treated wood, especially older, poorly maintained wood, an initial application of Ready Seal will take a lot of stain. 100 sq. ft. to the gallon is typical coverage the first time RS is applied. It is in your best interest as a contractor and best for the customer to get as much oil into the wood as possible. Now the upside. Paraffinic oil is a non drying oil. It penetrates very deep into the substate of the wood and actually conditions the wood by filling the voids with oil. I don't consider RS as a "sealer" per se, as there is no film on the wood keeping out moisture. It is more like a moisture repellant. Water cannot get into the wood due to the oil. The iron oxide pigments are top shelf quality. They are so finely ground, the pigment stays in suspension in the stain. Aside from a quick shake of a 5'er, or turning them over prior to using, no stirring is needed. It is a very thin consistancy so spraying using an HVLP pump at very low pressure is easy. I typically run my Pump Tec at 35-40 psi. Unless there is puddling on cupped boards, back brushing is truly not necessary. RS applies fast and does not lap, due to its penetrating properties. The true benefit of the product is maintenance. As with most stains at least here in the Northeast, every two years is typical. A 2 or 3% bleach wash with very low dump tip type pressure is all that is needed. As there is oil still present in the wood, the wood dries very fast. It is not unusual to wash a maintenance job, take lunch, and the wood is ready for staining. Stain quantity on maintenance is 50 - 60% of the initial application. The stain will never have to be stripped. There's nothing to strip. The stain is in the wood, not on the wood. The more I work on exterior wood, the less I like to use sodium hydroxide strippers. In my opinion they damage the substrate of the wood. Clean up is soap and water. Brushes can be left for days with stain on as the oil is truly non drying. Ready Seal is VOC compliant and they did not have to change their original formulation to meet the new regulations. The company has been producing the stain since I think 1992. Bottom line, it is a stain that is actually good for the wood.

Hey Ken, That is part of the problem I have with ATO or any stain that will not strip in a normal manner. What the frick is in it and why doesn't a decent mix of NaOH take it off? Mind you, this is ipe' or in your case, mahogany. These are hardwoods. ATO is suppose to be a oil based stain. Hardwoods do not take a lot of stain, due to the nature of the wood. Why can't we strip it normally? Areas that were exposed to a lot of sun and moisture stripped fine. I'm concerned with shaded and protected wood. It does not strip well, and I sanded this afternoon. Something is wrong with the product. Picture taken after 10 months of ATO on ipe'. Full sun exposure. Stripped last year, but not sanded. My deck needs lots of remedial work.

Cudas, There may be confusion due to the differences in interior - exterior paints, and interior - exterior stains. To be honest, I'm not quite sure what separates an exterior paint such as a acrylic/latex from and exterior latex/acrylic stain. Oil based paints were at one time the preferred final finish for interior wood trim. Due to the VOC police in the Northeast, B. Moore and I would guess other manus. are no longer offering interior oil paints. If I recall correctly, the primer for these oils was water based, not sure if it was latex or another ingredient. Exterior house paints today are mostly acrylic, latex, or a combination of the two. On bare wood, an oil based primer is used, preferably two applications before applying the acrylic/latex finish coat. Solid oil decking stains such as Cabot's should have a primer applied to bare wood. Cabot's offers an acrylic primer and also an oil primer. Either can be used but I believe the oil based primer is preferable. I would never put anything containing acrylics on an exposed wood deck. Cabot's has also sold foul acrylic decking stains for years. Although most homeowners and contractors did not follow directions, you were suppose to apply an oil based primer to the wood before applying the acrylic stain. Due to the lack of an oil primer on most jobs, I think this is a primary reason most of us have such a difficult time stripping off old acrylic stains from decks with NaOH strippers. Last year Cabot introduced the new SPF series acrylic decking stains. No mention is made of using an oil primer, just two coats of this stuff. We can wait and see but I expect this foul acrylic is going to be a total nightmare for homeowners and contractors alike. Best suggestion I can offer is decide on a finish coat, whatever that is, and read the instructions carefully. Call the manufacturer if you have any questions. Prep the wood, whether interior or exterior, correctly.

Ken is right. Oil based as primer, acrylic/latex as finish coat, at least in exterior house paints. Please do not consider this for decks.

Chris, Try: NORTHERN ILLINOIS DECK WORKS Since 1998 - Chicagolands Deck Restoration Specialists! www.northernillinoisdeckworks.com 847-225-0258 Business 847-877-2481 Cell

Is anyone getting more than a year of service from their Shurflo pumps (with Vitron seals) before replacement? This is the 3rd year running that I've had to replace one. Its not that they are that expensive, but a pain to replace and of course the pumps always fail on the job site. Ruined a pair of jeans using a backpack backup and a bleach mix the other day. The pumps are used for citric acid, sodium percarbonate and sodium hydroxide mixes, and now starting this year, bleach mixes. Always flushed with water after use. Stored in the winter with antifreeze. Any suggestions?

Jon, Yeah, I always buy Shurflos from Northern Tool. Inexpensive and they ship fast. Just saw this on another thread - Might be part of the problem. This morning I'll be putting on ~ 13 gals. of citric acid to neutralize a large deck and pergola with a lot of balustrade. The Shuflo will be running nearly constantly for maybe an hour or so. Another thing I noticed. When I was changing out the pump the other night, there was pressure on the outlet side. Guess I'm shutting the pump off without completely clearing the line of pressure. Never thought about it but this could also be a problem.