RPetry

Hey Reed, Have not seen you here in a long time. Has the season started yet in Mo.? Bill, Call Russ Cissell of Extreme Solutions, the makers of Wood Tux Wet. I believe they carry a less expensive Wood Tux made for fences. Phone # sshould be all over The Grime Scene.

Hey Beth, How about a worst decks catagory? I'll submit this one. Done in 2003, it really should have been torn down. Worse mold and mildew I ever saw. Did as much carpentry work as restoration, just to keep it from completely falling apart. Stain is the old Wolman's F&P natural.

Ok boys and girls. Lets play nice. Teacher taught us that 'sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me". Well, teacher was wrong. Much of the now infamous cedar and bleach thread was actually informative and a lot of it was entertaining and fun. A shame it turned mean and nasty... Yaz, your entry on regurgitating beer all over your monitor and keyboard is the highlight of my writing career and will remain a fond memory! Enough editorial comment, back to business. Yesterday afternoon I spent a lot of time web researching the lignin - bleach connection, specifically in the pulp processing, paper production industry. When I went to post, the thread had been pulled, and my efforts lost. I'll try and reconstruct my findings in this new thread. ----------------------------------- First, some definitions. The inexpensive, pervasive strippers used on removing finishes from exterior wood, are sodium hydroxide based or in chemspeak, NaOH. Bleach is a generic name for sodium hypochlorite, or NaOCl. Bleach (sodium hypochlorite) is used in processing wood pulp into paper. Others have claimed, and I had assumed was true, is that bleach is used to remove or break the bond between the cellulose and lignin wood fibers early in the pulp process. My findings indicate that this assumption is not true. Bleach (sodium hypochlorite) is the third stage in an up to seven stage process in chemical pulp processing. The first stage (C or substituted CD Stage in the article) is a chlorination step, which is partially quoted below.. "The chlorine reacts with the lignin by: - substitution - oxidation - addition Oxidation includes reactions with both lignin and carbohydrates. Oxidation of the carbohydrates leads to a decreases cellulose viscosity and decreased pulp strength. Lignin is not removed to a large degree in this stage, and the pulp actually gets darker..." Key words are "decreases cellulose viscosity and decreased pulp strength". The second stage (Extraction Stage (E) in the article) involves our old friend, sodium hydroxide (NaOH), that we all use as strippers. Partial quotes from the article as follows: "The E stage is extraction of degraded lignin compounds, ...", "Chemistry of alkaline extraction Removal of chlorinated lignin. Chlorination appears to give three types of lignin fragments:...", and further on, "Chlorination and alkaline extraction will remove ~80% of the residual lignin, but the resultant pulp has low brightness due to a relative increase in chromophoric groups. The alkali displaces chlorine and makes the lignin soluble by the reactions such as: Lignin-Cl + NaOH --------> Lignin-OH + NaCl" See the NaOH above? That is chemspeak for sodium hydroxide. The third stage (Hypoclorite Stage (H) in the article) involves sodium hypochlorite or bleach. A few partial quotes...."The H stage consists of bleaching usually with sodium hypochlorite solution (NaClO).", "Since the pH is high, lignin is continuously extracted as it is depolymerized." I make no claim to being a chemist. Maybe a reader more knowledgeable in the discipline can refute, change, or enlighten us. To surmise from my admitted limited expertise, I offer the following. Clorination compounds are used to break the cellulose - lignin bond, not bleach. Sodium hydroxide is then used to further breakdown and extract the degraded lignin from the mix. Sodium hypochlorite (bleach) is then used to further extract lignin remaining in the mix, after the lignin has gone through two separate processes that has significantly altered its original composition. I emphasize, extract - not destroy, and at this point in the process the lignin in no way chemically like it is in wood. The full article is found at: http://www.wmich.edu/ppse/pekarovicova/160999b.html Related information from other web sites as follows: A relatively easy read on paper and pulping. Note the sodium hydroxide (NaOH) references. No mention of sodium hypochlorite (bleach, or NaOCl). http://www.tappiphils.com/about_pulp_and_paper.asp Some good information on sodium hydroxide and sodium hypochlorite can be found here: http://www.chemicalland21.com/index.html Finally, a quote from another web reference..."The paper industry uses the caustic effects of sodium hydroxide on organic materials. Sodium hydroxide breaks down the lignin in wood. Lignin is a binder that holds cellulose fibers together in wood. When the lignin is removed, the freed cellulose fibers can be formed into paper. The digestive effects of sodium hydroxide on organic materials is the principle behind such drain cleaners as Liquid Plumr, which is a concentrated aqueous solution of sodium hydroxide." http://scifun.chem.wisc.edu/CHEMWEEK/Cl2&NaOH/Cl2&NaOH.html _________________________ Responsible responses are welcomed.

Hey Yaz, Sorry about the keyboard. Spilled Heineken's have ruined two of mine and a cable modem over the years. Your interpretation is similar to mine, with one exception. From what I can understand, chlorine is used to make bleach, but is not in bleach. The description and formula in the first article is... "Sodium hypochlorite, which is now used since it leads to less scaling, is made from chlorine as follows: Cl2 + 2 NaOH --------> NaOCl + NaCl + H2O" In other words chlorine (Cl subscript 2) plus 2 NaOH (sodium hydroxide?, I'm not sure) on the left side of the equation produces (the -------> symbol) sodium hypochlorite (bleach or NaOCl), sodium cloride (I think that is what NaCl is) and water (H subscript 2 O). Cloride (Cl) is not chlorine (Cl subscript 2) which I believe can only exist as a gas. I will readily admit that I'm out of my league here concerning chemistry. Pulp is basically ground up wood, (heartwood and/or softwood) from a tree, probably without bark, and moistened, probably with water. The word "slurry" may be appropriate or how about "moistened cellulose fibers". Cellulose is the mass of cells in the wood, lignin is the organic compound that binds the cells together. As far as I know... It would be very helpful if a chemist would look over the citations I provided and give us an informed laymen level interpretation. Until corrected, I contend that a bleach mix for cleaning wood does not "destroy" lignin, or in other words, separates the cellular structure of the wood. Sodium hydroxide (ie: stripper) possibly does some damage, and chlorine is a killer.

Scott, Ouch! What a rotten way to end your trip on the east coast. Had a full truck load to Beaufort, SC thirty yrs. ago. Got a hotel room and ate a scallop dinner at the best seafood restaurant in town. Three of us were admitted to the local hospital that night with food poisoning. Having your stomach pumped out is an experience you hope will never be repeated! Ate in a lot of truck stops and greasy spoons for three years all over the lower 48 and never got sick...go figure. Next time go Italian. We have some of the best Italian restaurants in the country. I hope both you and your wife are feeling better.

Hey Scott, Its was a lot of fun meeting both you and Eric the other evening. Stange how you and I share similar backgrounds! I emailed Eric at work on the job details yesterday. Whatever route he takes with his exterior wood, I'll help him in any way I can. Please tell him to call me on my cell at any time. Have a safe trip home. Maybe someday you and I can share a real steak in Omaha!

Paul, "I am afraid to tell you the stain as the arrows will start to fly. I can say that I have tried Readyseal, Cabots, & WTW on Ipe." In all good fun, I'll start the shooting match! I've been using Cabot's Aussie Oil on my own ipe deck as well as customer's hardwoods. I'm not thrilled with the product as it does form a film on the surface of the wood. But some of these hardwoods are so dense that its hard to get any oil penetration. I'm looking for an alternative stain. From what I have been told, Cabot's has changed their formulation of Aussie Oil three times in the last three years, due to stricter VOC regs and flashing problems. Doesn't instill much confidence in the product. If you, Jim, or others that service a lot of hardwoods have found better stain solutions for hardwoods from field experience, please share the info. I'm all ears and I sure there are other wood contractors that are interested.

ProVolley9, If you want a good reference, the book "Understanding Wood...A Craftsman's Guide to Wood Technology" by R. Bruce Hoadley has more info on wood than you will ever use. Chapter 3, "Wood Identification" is 25 pages long with id techniques and lots of photos and illustrations.

Hey Shane!, How's things going in the Lone Star state? Speaking of Lone Star and seeing Ken's animated graphic, I'll admit to downing a high count of Heineken's trying to get rid of these foul acrylics! What really gets me riled is Cabot's pushing this stuff on unsuspecting homeowners and new contractors. Come on, Cabot's is a major player with a huge marketing budget. They manufacture some very good, high quality stains. They ain't Behrs. Acrylic coatings may have their place in some applications, but until these manufacturers come up with a reasonable maintenance solution, they should all be tied to the whipping post. In my less than humble opinion, their bottom line based marketing is shameful. No better than Houston's former civic citizen Enron. Hey, how about this. Lawsuits punished Behr's a few yrs. ago for over a 100 million. Lets find a hard nosed, class action law firm to slowly turn the thumbscrews and shake 'em up! Yeah, guess I hate acrylics!

Hey Brent, I'm glad the information is useful. I would not want to trade markets. If most of my customers had an acrylic on their wood I would be looking at another line of business. Many of us have tried various strippers and methods to remove acrylics. Sanding is guaranteed to work but very labor intensive. I've had some success with the extremely strong, "hot mix" sodium hydroxide stripper and covering in plastic method on some acrylic finishes, but not others. BFS II and Removall 310 are the two products I have found that are consistantly effective. But you still need to do a second spot strip and some sanding to get the wood in shape for a semi-trans. oil stain. As far as I know, there are no reasonable ways to get rid of the stuff. In older threads on this board, other contractors have stated that replacing the acrylic encrusted wood is their most cost effective solution. One possible solution for your customers may be to remove as much of the old failed acrylic stain as possible without spending a fortune in materials and time. Cabot's offers a very good oil based solid stain, the 1600 series, that is opaque and can be tinted to any color. The 1600 series is a very good solid stain and as it is oil based, at least its maintainable. Due to its high solids content, it will cover and hide the remaining acrylic. My only fear is that the old acrylic substrate will eventually fail. Another consideration is possible bonding problems with the 1600 on an acrylic base. Cabot's technical dept. should be consulted before actually subjecting a customer to this possible solution.

Hi Brent, You asked Ken and I to comment on acrylic and oil finishes for exterior wood. My previous post should explain my position on acrylics, and I had to bite my tongue and tone it down ! Hopefully Ken, Russ, Jim, Beth, Seymore, Everett, and others will post as there are many others on this site with more experience and knowledge. Some of the following is speculative, as I have no claim on more than a cursory education in wood chemistry. Most of my experience has been with Ready Seal, so most of my comments will be based on using Ready Seal. Oils, in particular the paraffinic oils, have the property of diving through the surface of correctly prepared wood. This property infuses the aged and weathered wood with a replacement of lost natural oils and resins. Stains in this paraffinic catagory include Ready Seal, Wood Tux Wet, I think TWP, Baker's Gray Away, and others. These products differ in pigments and other properties but the "replenishment" idea is the same. Other oils, such as linseed, are employed in consumer grade products. Aside from the type, quality and refinement of the oil, pigment is important. Pigments are usually clay or the more expensive iron oxides. Pigment gives color to the stain and acts as a UV barrier, reflecting the suns' rays and fighting premature greying of the wood. Application could not be easier and fast. I use a Pump Tech electric sprayer, but Surflo's, pump ups, and even brushing is quicker than solid oil or water based stains. Clean up is soap and water. As paraffinic oils are non drying oils, brushes can be left for weeks without hardening and gumming up. The downside of the paraffic oils is two fold. On first application of aged, PT wood, you will use a lot of oil. You want to really saturate the wood. I have found it best to first apply a very heavy amount, wait a half to an hour, and spray second time with a lighter application. Its taken me two years to get the brush out of my hands but unless there are puddles of stain that will not be absorbed, back brushing is not necessary. The second downside factor is longetivity. There is no question in my mind that acrylics, heavy solid oils, and probably other water based stains last longer. In general my Ready Seal customers are serviced every two years. After initial application, dependent on sun exposure, use, and wood species, it may be best to do a quick clean and stain application at the 1st yr. point. This is especially true of cedar due to the density of the wood. But the upside of the product far outweighs the two year mainenance cycle for my customers. At least with Ready Seal, it is my experience in a limited time frame that no stripping is required. "Diamond" Jim of Ct. has more info on this. He may very well have decks serviced 4 or 5 times without stripping. The finish gets richer and more attractive after each application. As the wood is serviced, less oil is required. The overwhelming majority of my customers want their wood to look like wood. They like the grain and character of wood. Premium paraffinic oil stains are the best product I know to achieve this appearance as well as protecting from the elements and costly replacement.

Kevin H., This subject gets my goat up. Try and not take the following personally, but the gauntlet has been thrown down and I must respond. An acrylic finish on exposed exterior wood decks is the worst product any homeowner or contractor can apply. Why? Reason #1: Acrylic is plastic. Maybe this works for wood in the lab or on the moon but it sure doesn't work in the field. My guess is that thermal expansion and contraction, as well as UV exposure, are the primary reasons for finish failure. And an acrylic finish will fail. Unlike penetrating oils that wear and leach from horizontal surfaces in a consistant manner, slowly losing pigment and water repellent properties, an acrylic finish cracks, chips, and peels, resulting in the dreaded "dead skin" appearance. Now the failing finish must be repaired or replaced. Sure you can blast the flaking off or start spot sanding and apply another acrylic coating to improve appearance, but you will be applying a coating over a failing plastic substrate. Not a good idea for proper application of any exterior wood finish. To do a proper and professional job, the failing finish should be removed to get to bare wood for adhesion and longetivity. This leads to the next rant... Reason #2: There is no cost effective way to strip acrylics. Sure there are specialty strippers on the market at $30-$40 per galllon that work and I've used them with good results. But lets ignore the high material costs for now. The labor and equipment costs to apply the few effective acrylic strippers available is extremly high. Both Back to Nature's BFS II and Napier's Removall 310 will strip acrylics. But both strippers are of thick consistancy, almost like a gel. They must be applied in a thick layer, at least as thick as the coating to be removed and in practice, thicker. Price out a 1 GPM commercial airless to apply these strippers any you may decide to lay in on by hand. Good luck. The time this takes is astronomical. Kevin, maybe Cabot's has developed a magic acrylic stripper that is easy, effective, and economical to apply, but in all honesty I doubt it. There is no greater rip off in this industry than false claims and inferior products from stripper manufacturers. Please let us know of the stripper you mentioned. I will be the first to sing praises for a great product but due to experience, I expect disappointment. Bottom line is that acrylic finishes for exposed decks is extremely expensive to maintain. Do a search on this site for other opinions and experiences with acrylic stains. I believe you will find that the majority of contractors that specialize in exterior wood restoration agree. I think that Cabot's makes some good products. I use their Austrailian Timber Oil on hardwoods and oil based solid stains for the few customers that want an opaque finish. But I believe it is bad business and a costly disservice to my customers to apply any acrylic to exposed exterior wood.

Brent, I have to hang my hat in Ken's camp on this one. Failure analysis is great for the manufacturers so that they may formulate better products, surface prep methods etc., but there are many of us wood guys that refuse to use any acrylic finish on horizontal exterior wood. The primary problem for us in the field is we can't strip it in a cost effective manner. Until Cabot's, Flood, Behr's and other coating manufacturers that market acrylics come up with products that allow for maintenance of these finishes, I for one think it is irresponsible to put them on the market and for my company to even consider using them.

Dyslexia... Proof read panel 3, you also can't spell! Come on Russ, too much stain fumes!

Hey Patrick, I hope Cabot's does not charge $32 per gal. for their stripper for oil finishes. Sodium hydroxide strippers such HD-80 or F-18 that many wood contractors use are extremely effective on semi-trans oil stains and cost less than $2 per gal.! As far as I know and have experienced, latex finishes are an entirely different animal from acrylics. Kind of like the difference between rubber and plastic. I know nothing of their SPF line but I do know that a very good latex stripper, Biowsh Stripex-L, will not make a dent in older Cabot acrylic decking stains. I've seen decks that are literally self-destructing due to acrylic finishes. One, a huge cedar deck was rotting from the inside out, including vertical wood. The wood on another PT deck had swelled to the point of misalignment and deck boards lifting from joists. I shudder at the thought of putting any acrylic on wet wood. You are trapping moisture inside the wood causing rot in cedar and potential swelling in other species. I get the impression that you are somewhat new to exterior wood. Please do a search on "acrylic" on this web site. The nightmares posted by other contractors and myself may have you reconsidering using any acrylic finish on decks.

Patrick, Please let us know the stripper that the Cabot rep claimed "gives the same results you would have stripping an oil based product with a product designed for oil based products". Acrylics are the bane of wood restoration contractors. They can be stripped but the only effective products that I have found cost ~$200 per 5 gals, need to be applied in a thick layer using a very powerful commercial airless, and need a very long dwell time. Any manufacturer that offers an effective acrylic stripper at less cost, that is easier to apply, and is environmentally acceptable, will make a fortune.

Ryan, I agree with Ken. When reconstructing my deck, I looked into the hidden fastener method of attachment but due to cost and problems with installation, decided to use stainless steel screws. There is no installation more solid than quality ss screws on 12 or 16" centered joist. Ipe is dimensionally stable, and will not expand or contract to any appreciable degree. I would not consider T&G, you will have problems with standing water if the deck is not covered from rain. Anchorseal has worked well on my ipe, but if there is another end sealer better, use it. The end sealer will not stain, but let it do its job for a year or so and then sand off the top of the boards. Over the years, the darkness of the end sealer will fade.

Ryan, 16' full length ipe boards? Get some muscle to help 'cause they're going to be real heavy. I'm sure you know about using carbide saw blades and drill bits. Make sure you go to the lumberyard and hand select each board. Ipe is near impossible to bend to any degree, especially 5/4". You and yours are going to love the deck when its done. Beats any other wood for exterior decks that I have seen. Best of luck.

Hey Ryan, Congrats on choosing ipe for your new deck. Its a lot of work and $ to install but the wood is well worth it in the long run. I reskinned my deck with ipe a few years ago and kept the original PT joist and posts. After removing the old deck boards, the sub structure was fine. This is developer quality work and 17 yr. old cheap lumber. As the joists, sill plate etc. are protected from moisture, sun, and are off the ground, there reallly isn't much to degrade the wood. And practically, using ipe or another hardwood for the substructure would be very expensive and IMO overkill. I would suggest using the best stainless steel screws possible to attach the ipe deck boards to the joist. I used trimhead screws from Swan Secure Products (available over the 'net) with great results. Countersink the screws ~ 1/4 " into the ipe so sanding in the future will not be a problem. If you want to get real fancy, you can buy a plug cutter and install ipe plugs into the countersink holes to hide the screw heads. Make sure to apply Anchorseal on the ends of the ipe boards after making the final cuts. This helps in preventing end grain checking.

My logo was created by a graphic designer in exchange for a substantial discount on restoring his mahogany deck. The remainder of the business card as well as envelopes, stationary, etc. is designed and printed in house using Gimp and OpenOffice software under Linux.

Jeff, The wood should be fine two weeks after cleaning/brigtening to stain. Make sure to remove any loose dirt and leaves prior to stain application. A powered air blower that landscapers use works well. The problem here in the Northeast at this time of the year is wood moisture content. Ready Seal is a terrific stain that I use exclusively for softwoods but the product does require dry wood (<= 12%). Dependent on weather conditions, deck exposure, shade, AM dew, etc. it may be difficult for the wood to get this dry in Nov. In general, plan on starting to stain late in the morning and start on vertical wood that dries out quicker. Wait until mid to late afternoon to stain the horizontal wood. Two applications of stain on the horizontal and one heavy application on the vertical wood works well with Ready Seal. As this is the first time the deck has been treated, get as much stain into the wood as possible. If applied correctly, the wood will take a lot of stain.

Lou, I posted this on a multi page thread on stripping acrylics back in June. There is a book available, "Understanding Wood - A Craftsman's Guide to Wood Technology" by R. Bruce Hoadley. From what I understand, it is the "bible" for serious woodworkers, and is oriented toward that craft. Its gets pretty technical at times with equations etc. but has very good illustrations and pictures and most information is understandable to the uninitiated. It contains an amazing amount of information on wood. More than a third of the book is Part 1, "The Nature of Wood and its Properties". Chapters within this section include Wood ID, Strength of Wood, and Water and Wood" Part 2 is "Basics of Wood Technology". Chapters include Coping with Dimensional Change in Wood, Drying Wood, and "Finishing and Protecting Wood". Part 3 is "The Woodworker's Raw Materials". Chapters include Lumber, Engineered Wood, and Finding Wood".

Mike, The 3/8" clear hose with the quick disconnect should have a maie nipple/screen filter attachment that goes in the bucket for your draw of chems/stain whatever. There should be another 3/8" clear hose with a brass end that also goes in the bucket for the return flow from the pump. Two separate hoses go into the bucket. The red hose connects to the female quick disconnect just to the right of the pump itself when looking at the opposite side of the battery. The other end of course connects to your spray gun. There is a small brass handle on the left side (again, looking at the pump itself, opposite the battery), that when placed in the up position, feeds flow to your spray gun. Underneath this is a brass turn knob that adjusts pressure to the gun, and is measured on the pressure gauge. The spray gun itself shoud also have a turning pressure adjustment. Make sure you have a deep charge marine 12V battery and you can spray for a very long time between charges. Also, take care to have the unit supported when you remove the battery as it has a tendency to fall over. I've already replaced one manifold by not paying attention. This is by far the finest HVLP sprayer for wood stain that I have used.

Advice needed. Am working on a 25 yr. old redwood deck, constructed of 2x4's, that had been neglected over the yrs. Cleaned normally with sodium percarb and brightened with citric acid. Spot sanded some areas and the entire surfaced has been buffed with defelting pads. Put down three separate Ready Seal color samples and the tannin in the wood immediately came to the surface, coloring the wood nearly black in each case and making the samples nearly indistinguishable. Ok, best go with the Ready Seal redwood only formula to minimize tannin bleed. Problem is that I have never applied the redwood only formula. With regular RS and softwoods, I normally spray with a Pump Tek unit, with one heavy coat on the vertical wood and two on the horizontals, back brushing the second application with a large bristle brush. Anyone have any tips on application? I understand the redwood formula is subject to lap marks. One or two stain applications? Wet on wet or let the first one dry before hitting the wood again? Back brush on all staining? The deck is full southern exposure and with the weather remaining brutally hot and sunny here for the next week, I'm wary of any flashing problem. Also, the wood is extremely dry and will accept a lot of stain. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks.

Thanks all. My only disappointment is that I was unable to get a 2nd application of stain into the horizontals. Put the first stain into the wood this past Tuesday, when it was ~ 95 degrees F and in full sun. Must have over applied, but the stain was drying so fast, it took a good amount to allow any effective back brushing. Some of the deck 2 x 4's are 16 1/2 ft. long single piece, and even doing only 3 boards at a time as Jim suggested, it took a lot of stain to keep a wet edge. Went back Wed. AM after the dew had dried and brushed a light amount of stain in a small shaded area to test. After 40 min. the redwood was still wet on top with a few spots dried to a sheen so wiped the excess off and figured that the redwood would not absorb any more stain. Last thing I want is a Ready Seal film on top of the wood. Mike, This job was not a problem. Knew that tannin bleed could be a problem with some redwoods, and it was immediately evident when I put down the 3 regular RS color samples. My primary concern was application of the RS redwood only formula. Had been warned of spotty application, partial drying, and lap marks, which has never been a problem with regular RS. I guess I was lucky on this redwood as the redwood only formula was as easy to apply and uniform in appearance as regular RS on other species of softwoods. The customers were very pleased. The wife seemed more impressed that I kept working in the brutal heat we had here in NJ early this week! Most important, I have another dedicated customer for the future.