RPetry

Tannin bleed redwood deck finished. Thanks to all on this thread for their help. Also, many thanks to Pierce of Ready Seal and Tom Vogel of ACR. This is the first time I've used the RS redwood only formula and it applied as easily as the regular RS. Three pics attached. Original condition, after cleaning/brightening/buffing, and finished.

Beth, The owner comes in second. Most don't have a clue, just care if it looks nice when you finish. If I don't like the results, I've done a bad job. Just got back in. It is ungodly hot here in NJ today. I wouldn't walk my dog in this heat and this 50 something is out bustin his hump on decks! Tomorrow is suppose to be just as hot and more humid. Great. I'm seriously thinking of taking tomorrow off. Thursday of this week and beyond looks more reasonable. Keep cool...

Mike, The three sample color patches of regular RS was less than 1 sq. ft. so I just sanded them out. The black tannin was on the surface and came off easily. To be honest, I'm not sure if you could strip tannin. I don't know anything about it except it must be some type of natural resin that occurs in great quantity in some redwood. Beth, I'm not expecting any masterpiece. This wood is 25 yrs. old and severely neglected. Some type of fungus or mold was in the cracks between ~30% of the deck boards and had actually taken root into the wood. The redwood is cracked, ridged, and starting to rot on some of the end grain and one spot on the floor. But short of ripping out all the redwood and running it through a planer I'll do the best that I can.

Reply did not allow a duplicate photo in the thread. The original redwood is in message #7 on this thread on the first page.

Pierce from Ready Seal is a pretty smart guy. When I described over the phone about three regular RS color samples turning black on this old redwood deck, he immediately exclaimed "Tannin Bleed!". Boy was he right. Thundershowers this AM so went to the job site this afternoon. Vertical wood was dry enough so did a little staining. The RS redwood only formula worked like a charm. Beth, you asked for some pics. First is the deck before cleaning. Second is after cleaning and buffing with defelting pads. Third is RS redwood only med. red on a balustrade post. If anyone else runs into this problem it is readily identifiable. No matter what color of regular RS you use, light or dark pigment, if the redwood immediately turns black, and I mean in a heartbeat, go with the RS redwood only formula.

Beth, Attached is a picture of pool litmus paper. Ignore the far right pad as it measures free chlorine ppm and the far left pad which measures total alkalinity in ppm (the color chart on the container doesn't come close to the red or brown on the test strips so I can't speculate). The middle pad is pH. The pH color scale on the paper container is facing the front of the picture. Top strip is untreated paper. The middle is RS redwood only formula, medium red. The bottom strip is RS regular, also medium red color. I'm not sure if or how the stain pigment may influence the litmus paper but both stains are medium red. There is a definite difference in pH between the RS redwood and regular stains. Ignoring any pigment influence, the RS redwood formula seems close to 7.0 pH, whereas the RS regular (bottom strip, brown) color is off the chart but I would guess to be much lower, or more acidic. Opposite of what we might expect.

Beth, In talking with Pierce about redwood, it was my understanding that the "tannin bleed" problem is actually a physical phenomenon, where the stain penetrating into the redwood forces the tannin in the wood to the surface. How the redwood only formula tries to prevent this must be of a chemical nature, but I certainly don't have a clue as to how that may work.

Mike, In four yrs. in this business, this is the first redwood deck I've seen. Aside from hot tub fascia, redwood is rare in this area. Before starting on this deck, I spoke at length with Pierce. He also advised trying the regular RS. After cleaning and brightening, spot sanding some bad areas and buffing out all the redwood with defelting pads, I put three separate samples of different regular RS colors on three contiguous redwood 2x4's. All three turned black immediately. There was no appreciable color change the next morning when I checked. RS natural cedar, med. red, and light brown all looked virtually the same black color. Called Pierce again and described the situation. He suspects that the stain is forcing the tannin in the wood to the surface and suggested trying the redwood only formula. I don't have a clue to the chemistry difference in the RS formulas, but from what I understand, the redwood only RS helps prevent this "tannin bleed". Pierce also mentioned that RS has many contractors in the Western US that use regular RS on redwood without the tannin problem. I guess it just depends on the type of redwood and possibly environmental conditions, maintenance, and maybe the original quality of the wood. It will be interesting to see if there is any difference with the redwood only formula. I'm scheduled to start staining tomorrow morning. Jon, Your clear base coat idea is brilliant. Wish I had some in stock to try it out. My problem is that my RS distributor is a 160 mi. drive roundtrip. Got lucky in that he had deliveries in my area of NJ and was able to drop off some redwood only formula yesterday. It would be enlightening to see if the RS clear also turned black, which would be definite proof of the stain forcing the tannin to the surface. Thanks to everyone for their help and advice. I'll take some pics and let you know how things work out.

Beth, Did not see your 2nd post prior to responding. There was just a hint of prior stain at the top of the balustrade, underneath a wide custom "shelf" that was shaded and protected from rain. There was no tint, I'm assuming it was some kind of clear. The owner did not know of the previously appled product, but it was last serviced at least 12 yrs ago. After cleaning, the entire deck was "sanded" with the Makita and defelting pads. RS light brown is IMO, a very light pigmented stain. The sample patch was just as dark as the other two, so I can only assume tannin bleed was the culprit. This is why I obtained the redwood only formula from ACR. Med. red is the only color available in the redwood only formuta. I'll try a small section first on Monday to see if the redwood only formula does not turn black. I just wanted to confirm application procedure, ie. wet on wet, followed by a second stain application after the first wet on wet has dried, back brushing all stain. Thanks.

Beth, Attached is a photo of a floor section before cleaning. I have not yet taken any pictures after cleaning/brightening/sanding and buffing with defelting pads, but the wood came out quite nice, with different colored redwood boards standing out etc. The deck does get full sun, by 11 AM this past Thursday I was ready to pass out from the heat. Regular RS, med. red, natural cedar, and light brown were applied as samples. The three were almost identical in color, as the tannin rose to the surface immediately on application. Ok, lets see if I've got this. A wet on wet first application, doing a few boards at a time. Allow to dry. A second single application after drying, back brushing all stain applications. Is this right? Thanks.

James, Thanks. I'm not sure what you mean by "- dont let an area dry then go back over- ". Kind of like a quick wet on wet coat? A second coat when dry makes sense. I assume back brushing all stain?

Attached is a pic of a NJ shore porch that I serviced last year. The floor and step treads are tongue and groove mahogany, stained with Cabot's Amberwood Aussie oil. My problem is that numerous areas of the step treads and floor have or are in the process of failing. Granted, the wood does get walked on as this is the main entrance into the home, but most of the floor is protected from both rain and direct sun. Late this week I will be redoing the floor and step treads at my own expense. My question is this. Do I do a light sodium percarbonate cleaning with a citric rinse and apply the Aussie oil over top the existing Aussie oil stain? Or would a strip and complete redo of the mahogany be in order? I not only want the wood to look good, but am trying to get some lifetime out of the stain. Thanks.

Hi Beth, The mahogany (and cedar balustrade, fascia & step risers) originally had a film finish ( manu. unknown) that was mostly worn. This was stripped (@ 6 oz./gal.), neutalized, and dried to < 12%. The Aussie was applied with lambswool. The mahogany is ~ 6 yrs. old and is not good quality. On another thread, I believe it was Ken Fenner that had applied multiple layers of Aussie oil to his own mahogany deck with good results. My own leaning is also to strip but if others have had success with another process, I'm willing to give it a try.

Beth, Have not had to use the Wil-Bond again, but it certainly worked well. I redid that deck early this spring with RS, and did not noticed any difference in the areas where the Wil-Bond was used. Of course, there was hardly any stain left!

Anniered, I ran into the same problem three yrs. ago on a deck that I overapplied Wolman's F&P oil based stain. I used a product called Wil-Bond to remove the excess stain with good results. Here is a link to a thread on another board, with pictures. Scroll down a ways to my post. http://www.deckcare.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=436&highlight=Wilbond

Ken, I also just redid my own ipe deck (for the 2nd time) this past weekend with Aussie Oil. I stripped what was left before brightening and applying a new finish. I don't know. I'm not all that happy with the product on my ipe or customer's mahogany.

RyanH, Here is a pic of ipe with Mahogany Flame Aussie oil after ~ 14 months. Doubt if you will find a pic of any penetrating stain after 2 or 3 years, if its anywhere near sunlight or rain, it's gone... Ah, can't load the same picture twice. Try ... http://www.thegrimescene.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2057

Beth & Rod, Jim, Celeste, I'm leaning towards Jim on this one. Aussie oil, even on a protected mahogany porch, does not last a year. I could not have prepped the wood better, and it looks like h*ll. Its a do over and I'll give it one more shot, but I'm doubtful of the longetivity of the oil. Ipe I can understand. Aussie oil for one year, strip it, and do it again. OK by me but customers do not want to pay the serious freight each and every year. God forbid, I'm trolling for a film forming stain that will last for 2 yrs. on exposed or protected ipe or mahogany and is easy to strip. Any suggestions? Email to wwoodcare@comcast.net if you wish to remain anonymous. Thanks.

Russ, Ipe is a hardwood, sometimes called Brazilian Walnut. A decent link to info is ... http://ipe-wood.com/index.html Ken, Aside from teak, I have not seen a wood as durable as ipe. BTW, I'm leaning getting off Aussie oil for hardwoods. Protected mahogany porch I stripped and finished last year looks bad. I'm redoing it next month at my own expense. My ipe deck with Mahogany Flame looks bad. I'm afraid to visit others... Think Ready Seal may be better, but I know that hardwoods will not accept a lot of stain and are difficult to maintain for more that a year. Gotta be a better way...

Terrific wood. Composites be damned... Nature has a way of putting all of us in our place...

Buzzyng, No. I don't think small cracks in ipe are anything to be concerned about. My ipe has a lot of small cracks and I could care less. This wood is as close to indestructable as it gets. If you have the time and $ in the job, counter sink the screws. Use carbide drill bits and monster clamps if you have to straighten a board. The wood is a horror story to install but if its done right, IMO there is nothing better. Period.

Buzzyng, I'd clean the wood after installation with percarb then brighten/neutralize with oxalic or citric. Ipe is very dimensionally stable and you should not have a problem with further cracking of the wood, treated with an oil or not. Make sure that you put a special wax product, I use Anchorseal, on the ends of any cuts. Ipe will check badly on the ends if this is not done. Make sure you use carbide tools and good stainless steel screws.

Beth, Arggg! I just got the call. Wife wants RS Natural Cedar on the old, discolored PT deck. I lobbied hard for Med. Red or Med. Brown, as I have these in stock and they are dark enough to hide the discolored areas. No pics on this one... Worst part is I only have 5 gals. Natural Cedar in stock. Guess another run to ACR is in the cards. Later. Gotta go to work in this miserable heat wave.

Good morning Beth & Everett, Working on my 3rd cup of java and am in a better mood. I stand corrected. I personally have never seen mold, mildew, fungus whatever in the substrate of ipe. Course we don't have many in this area so my experience is very limited. Funny you should mention Behr's. Stripped a 16 yr. old PT deck last week. The owner claims that only Behr's was used in the past. Wood is in awful shape, many areas are hard to describe, almost like its "delaminated" with ridges, hills and valleys. Estimate test indicated 8 oz. / gal. F-18 was adequate. Mixed one gal. and started. Did not like the results and doubled the mix. After drying, the wood was still discolored. Now I'm confused. All the old stain appears to be gone but the wood still looks bad in some areas, kind of a grey color in patches and streaks. Throw some citric on and get out of the heat. Next morning no difference. Then I recalled the Behr's lawsuit. I believe this is the old mildewcide effect. Deep in the substate there is mildew, alive or dead I'm not sure. The deck would literally have to be picked up and dipped in NaOH for a long time to get rid of it. Sure hope they pick a dark colored stain! As far as installation of ipe, it certainly is difficult. Just dealing with the weight of the wood is a chore. Carbide tools are a must. Straightening bowed boards is a nightmare. I spent $94 for a single 1/4 inch carbide plug cutter and had to order it from a machine shop in RI. But when its done right, the deck is nearly indestructable and may well outlast many homes.

Everett, I'm not going to pick an argument with you, I'll defer. You probably have more time, knowlege, and experience in wood care than most of us combined. I'll continue to follow the party line with customers. My thoughts were that any mold or mildew present are in the surface dirt, pollen, organic material, not the wood itself. Clean off the dirt and the ipe is good to go. But you may very well be correct in that unseen spores may hinder adhesion or penetration. Why oil ipe? Come on Everett, you know how great the wood can look with a lambswool application of Aussie oil. Does it need a finish? Absolutely not, the wood will outlast most others without it. Straight mineral oil is interesting, but I can't get to my own ipe deck once a year. The shoemaker's kids.... I have been using Anchorseal on the cuts, which is a heavy duty wax, not an oil. Am I doing something wrong? Peace. I'm tired of fighting acrylics and conventional wisdom.