RPetry

Everett and Beth, Conventional answers to an unconventional wood. I don't think any of us really know. As usual, I've used sodium percarbonate and citric to be "safe", but the chems and effort may be a waste. I'm in a foul, contrary mood so please bear with me. I do have a little experience with ipe. I've purchased it, cut it, bent it, screwed it (no wisecracks please!), plugged it, sanded it, cleaned it, stripped it, brightened it, and fininshed it. Personally, I don't think mold, mildew, or the world's nastiest wood borer has a chance against this wood. I can't even get a good long oil to penetrate it to any extent. Ipe is as close to bulletproof as it gets. I can try banging with my largest hammer while its wet, but the wood doesn't get wet. Or, dig in the old parts box and find a small tip to see if I can make a dent at 3000 psi. Point is, any surface mold or mildew can be probably removed by cleaning the organic dirt on the wood with a little soap, water, and a pressure washer. I really do not think at this time that any mold, mildew or other nasties can impregnate (stop those thoughts!) ipe and do damage.

Cujo, Thanks. I really think acrylics are going to become a growing problem for those of us that primarily refinish decks. I've been searching for less expensive strippers and have used this board to see if anyone else has a possible solution. Jon Fife helped in suggesting Removall 310. It works in tests but the specs clearly indicate that it should be applied through an airless to be effective. Got the airless, but am not going to spend $200 for a 5 gal. container to test. The other problem for me is supply. ICI Paints markets a Hydrostrip 503 which according to Napier is a private label of Removall 310. The spec sheets for the 2 products are different but I'll take their word on it. I have to travel ~ 70 mi. to get it (with the traffic in this area of NJ, that can be a 1/2 day adventure) and the one supplier only has 10 gals. I know Back to Nature BFS II works, I can get as much as I want in my area for a little less than Removall 310. I've used it to get through 3 and in some areas 4 Behr's solids in one application. That was when I was just starting out and didn't know an acrylic from Thompson's. But the few jobs I have used it on were small decks in townhouse communities where the owners were required to conform to standards. In one case I was the first contractor in the prior 3 that could get the solids off. BTN II is literally the consistancy of pudding and you need an airless pushing over 1 GPM. So you wind up laying thick by hand, extremely tedious, time consuming and expensive. At present, I only use my Binks airless a few times a year for the few solid stain jobs I agree to do. I hate solids. I'm not about to spend $3000 for a new airless just to push a stripper until demand justifies the purchase. The other problem is customers. They just don't want to believe they have a real problem. Yeah, their deck is peeling like dead skin and they want it to "look nice", but its going to cost how much for the stripper and sanding? They wind up hiring some schmuck that recoats the deck in another acrylic. The cedar deck in my 2nd test above is an example. Nice people and I see cedar which is not all that prevalent around here. I love cedar. But they have no dough. Too much house, kids, insecure employment, whatever. So me, mister nice guy says look, I'll get as much off the floor as possibie using NaOH, very cheap stripper. I'll help you with products and methods to do the rest of the floor yourself. Am explicit in what to expect. Go up on a cold foggy morning and test using F-18 at 24 oz. per gallon. Yeah it works as expected, getting off a lot in partially failed areas. Meanwhile, knock off a lot of the peeled acrylic with just water. Go back a few days later when it is warmer. Do the job with described and expected results. As a prelude, when I was up the 1st time to do an estimate, I had the Delmhorst with me. Homeowner, peering over my shoulder, sees the readings in some areas of his balustrade off the scale. You can poke your finger into some areas and the cedar feels like a sponge. They know its rotting, even the floor has 2 boards rotted completely through. Now after two lengthy emails telling them about possible strippers, how to apply, sanding etc I get this. Name deleted to protect the guilty..... Rick, Thank you for you kind offer of no charge. Since you did come out, spent money on supplies and put in some hours trying to remove the stain, we would like to split the difference that you quoted us. We will send a check to Windsor Woodcare in the amount of $220. We did try the BTN ready strip product this weekend (1quart). It seemed to remove the stain from the verticals. We also applied it to the floor but it was a little harder to remove. We will need to use a pressure washer to really get if off. What would you recommend to buy for a pressure washer that we not be too powerful for the cedar deck? What is the appropriate PSI and GPM? Also, is one brand better than another? Thanks. xxx Mr. xxx, If you need a pressure washer to get the acrylic off, it has not been fully stripped. I don't want your money, its no kind offer. I don't dicker with anyone. Any check will be returned. Look, you contracted for a service at an agreed price and you were not satisfied. End of story, I'll eat the time, travel, materials, aggravation and effort. A couple of hundred bucks makes no difference to me. Satisfied customers are my business. You have terrific wood under your feet and don't even know it. Call a few reputable contractors in the area to see what a tear down and replacement for cedar or even pressure treated lumber would cost. Keep hiring idiots who don't have a clue about exterior wood. Yeah, they may be cheap in the short run, but you will pay a price and its now. Your cedar has not been properly maintained in years and you think a quick patch job is going to fix all ills? Sorry for the rant xxx, but I'm tired. I'm tired of trying to help and educate. I'm tired of trying to tackle these jobs without a clue from the homeowner. I'm tired spending a good part of 3 days desperately looking for a reasonable solution. Truly, your deck balustrade and possibly some cedar deck boards are rotting right now. Keep going cheap, buy inferior products and services. The piper does get paid in the end. I've tried to help as much as I can. Both you and Mrs. xxx are very nice people and I wish you all the best. Mind you, this is for ~ 775 sq. ft. of horizontal cedar. This is my 4th season in this business and I have never had any customer even question my bill, let alone not pay it. I'll drive 160 miles round trip to get a Ready Seal color that I don't have in stock, just to keep a customer satisfied. So, I'm at a stand off. Do I try and help save some wood or take the easy way out. Tackle the problem or avoid it. If I spent half the time on marketing as I have on these foul acrylics, I'd be hiring right now. Too subborn for my own good. I'll try and keep at it for as long as I can. The problem is only going to get worse.

Beth, I agree but you know the nature of ipe. Its just so hard, our normal chems may not be really effective or needed. Would just a dash of soap in water followed by a powerwash to remove the surface dirt be just as good? I don't know, but I think its possible with ipe.

Same four strippers used in the test at the start of this thread now on cedar. The deck has 1 coat of Cabot's 1800 series acrylic, no base oil primer. Some areas also have another old acrylic coat that was not removed when the Cabot's was applied. 1st pic is the test area before application of the strippers. Application test patches were on both the horizontal floor and vertical balustrade base edge. Dwell time was ~ 2 hrs., cloudy with temps in the low 60's. One other note, these horizontal floor areas had the old worn 2nd acrylic, whereas the vertical area only had the single coat of Cabot's 1800. 2nd pic, from left to right. Napier's Removall 310, Back to Nature Ready Strip Deck, Back to Nature BFS II, and the neon blue development product. No agitation help or additional product was added. 3rd pic, results. What I found surprising is that all four products seemed to strip, at least to some extent, the vertical balustrade edge where there was only the single Cabot acrylic, but Ready Strip Deck and Neon Blue did not perform well on the horizontal, trying to strip the same Cabot acrylic. That 2nd unknown acrylic underneath must have made a difference. Clear winners are Removall 310 and BFS II.

buzzyng, I have used 8 oz./gal. of straight sodium percarbonate to clean ipe with good results, followed with citric acid at 6 oz/gal. In all honesty, I'm not sure if the cleaner and neutralizer are really that necessary. The wood is so dense the chems may have little effect beyond surface dirt.

Beth, Again, micro not macro. Sub-heading in the article is "A boom -- But only in pockets". Housing is affordable in Dallas, Houston, Atlanta, Philadelphia, Washington, Detroit. What surprised me is that housing costs (adjusted) have stayed stable in San Francisco over the past 24 yrs. If you are in one of the "heated" suburban markets and are planning on retiring, maybe its time to sell and move. But jobs, family, friends, "roots" are also important. Its your home. Unless leveraged to the hilt, relax. Its kind of like the stock market. If your trying to make a quick score, you're on a Level II screen all day, scalping for a dime a share and getting ulcers. If you have money socked away in the market with a time frame of over 10 - 12 yrs., daily, monthly, and quarterly results are not so important. The NY Times yesterday had an interesting article "Real Estate, The Global Obsession". In a chart under Long-Term Growth, "Average change in home prices in industrial nations per year, 1971-2003, adjusted for inflation". The US was +1.3 Not a great rate of return. Some others...Britain +3.6, Spain +3.6, Ireland +3.4, Netherlands +2.9, Austrailia +2.7. Others with greater growth rates than the US are France, Canada, and Denmark. Only Sweden, Japan, New Zealand, and Germany are lower. But again this is macro. Real estate, residential or otherwise, is a micro market.

Jim, I've got a gazebo cedar shake roof off a lg. deck that hasn't been cleaned in 15 years. Mold and mildew is caked and as hard as coral. Got to be done tomorrow and its going to be in the 90's and again very humid. I agree, it sucks. There are certainly easier ways to make a few bucks.

Jon, Truly wish I could use that information. In central NJ, its probably against code to build a log home. Honestly, I have never seen one in my area. Further south, where it is more rural, I have seen a few. But a rare treat. Bet 9 of 10 people here never heard of Daniel Boone, and probably 7 of 10 could not locate Tenn. on a map. Lincoln Logs were my favorite toy as a kid and always had a dream of building a log home. Not here.. BTW, when I mentioned "bible" of woodworkers, I meant those who build furniture, sculpt in wood, etc. Still, a book loaded with info that may be helpful and of interest.

Jon, Beth, Cujo, and interested others... There is a book available, "Understanding Wood - A Craftsman's Guide to Wood Technology" by R. Bruce Hoadley. From what I understand, it is the "bible" for serious woodworkers, and is oriented toward that craft. Its gets pretty technical at times with equations etc. but has very good illustrations and pictures and most information is understandable to the uninitiated. It contains an amazing amount of information on wood. More than a third of the book is Part 1, "The Nature of Wood and its Properties". Chapters within this section include Wood ID, Strength of Wood, and Water and Wood" Part 2 is "Basics of Wood Technology". Chapters include Coping with Dimensional Change in Wood, Drying Wood, and "Finishing and Protecting Wood". Part 3 is "The Woodworker's Raw Materials". Chapters include Lumber, Engineered Wood, and Finding Wood". One is not going to find many direct answers to questions posed on this thread, for example the SYP issue but just perusing through quickly turned up a few nuggets of info. Under the chapter "Drying Wood", there is a subsection "The Dry Kiln". One small snippet, quoted "However, the successfful drying of a charge of several thousand board feet of lumber is the craft of the kiln operator - as much art as science - and is usually gained only through years of experience". Wonder how many commercial kilns are run by craftsmen any longer and if their employers allow the time to fully cure green wood. Pg. 113 has a half page graph illustrating the equilibrium moisture content % of common woods plotted against Relative Humidity. Another possible clue. How is the wood stored and protected from high humidity? Picture on Pg. 98 caption starts with "In softwoods, the slower the growth, the stronger the wood." It might be safe to assume that large producers are using genetic strains to lessen the time of seedling planting to harvest growth. A lot of info, but may be interesting to some.

Beth, Boy do I like a good argument! Gets the brain working after sweating and getting wet and dirty all day. Cujo is partially correct. By a wide margin, there are a lot more trees in America today than when Columbus, the Vikings, or space beings "discovered" America. This was true over 30 yrs. ago when I was a forestry major (switched to geology and never used either) and probably more so today. One primary reason is the midwest. These were natural grasslands with few trees except along watercourses and mostly cottonwoods. With housing and population growth, plantings have added a huge increase in overall tree count. Another reason is tree farming. Wood is a very large industry in this country and the Georgia Pacific's grow a whole lot of trees for supply. As far as quality of our forests, old growth is mostly gone. Management has been sporatic. Recent BLM policy of allowing non threatening forest fires to burn out on their own may actually be beneficial in the long run. Overall, for most people, I'm sure the "quality" of our forests is nowhere near 500 yrs. ago. But there is no question that there is a lot more of it. And none of us were around then to make the call. I have gotten more than a bit of criticism of resurfacing my deck with ipe. "Destroying the rain forest", "Adding to global warming" etc., all the typical, knee jerk, emotional reactions without a clue. As far as I know, nearly all ipe imported into the US today is farm raised. They are able to grow production wood in as little as 15 yrs. from planting. Our country started its economic greatness on the abundance of natural resources. You want to take that away from 2nd and 3rd world countries, that have a difficult time getting their population out of abject poverty? I had an interesting conversation with the head sales guy of Thompson's Mahogany Co., the distributor of the ipe I purchased. The co. is about 100 yrs. old, and like many others, clear cut in South and Central America in the past to get at the mahogany. Ipe and other species were left to rot on the ground. About 30 yrs. ago their on site managers noticed that the trees cut down, 50 or more years ago, were not rotting. More amazing, as itenerant farmers followed to try and make a living on bad soil, burned downed trees to clear fields. The ipe would not burn. Check out the fire rating on the wood, its in the same class as concrete. The issues are not simple. But there is certainly a lot of "save the Planet" uninformed nonsense.

Beth, In a macro perspective, housing may bust. Those on the financial edge with high credit debt and home equity lines are a pink slip away from foreclosure. I have had customers with a 750K home with no furniture in many of the rooms. But the housing market is very micro. Here in central NJ, there is and has been such a strong demand, spikes in interest rates, stock market downturn, higher unemployment, and rising property taxes just don't seem to matter. An article in a local newspaper estimated that 30% of the cost of a new home in this area is directly attributable to gov't regulation. Builders can't get the land, have to fight legal battles with zoning boards, comply with a gamut of local and state regulations, etc. The average time it takes a builder to dig the first foundation after land acquisition is 6 years. As a small example, I just had to get a friggin building permit to replace a water heater in a rental property my wife and I own. Absurd. Its only $45 but you have to go to the building dept., get the paperwork, draw up the plans, submit the paperwork, wait for the inspector to show up to BS about his home in Fla. This is no joke. I just went through exactly this to install two low voltage lights in the kitchen of our home. This is a small example of the hidden costs of gov't run amuck. NJ is a cesspool of corruption, incompetence, waste, and idiotcy. As soon as my wife decides to retire, we are outta here. Boy, do I sound like an old coot! Hey, when ya turn gray, you have earned the right to sound off. I'm not going to worry about the housing market, I've got my plate full just trying to get rid of these acrylics!

Glock40, Two other pics. First is the deck with the sample picture finished with Honey Teak. The second is a tongue and groove mahogany porch finished with Amberwood. I kind of think they look better than "natural".

Glock40, Attached is a photo of the four colors of Cabot's Austraiian Timber Oil on older mahogany. From left top to bottom right. Amberwood, Honey Teak, Natural, and Mahogany Flame.

Cujo, Your lumber prices are nowhere near what we pay in Central NJ. Today, I priced out 5/4 x 6 ACQ from a reasonable supplier in this area. $1.31 per linear ft. Roughly equivalent to 2.60 per sq. ft. Next is tear down. I've been honest throughout this thread, I am not a carpenter and don't pretend to be one. But the old rule of thumb I have heard is labor ~ 2 or 3 times the material installed. Thats installation, not tear down. In NJ today, I'll guess that a 30 yd. dumpster to dispose the old lumber costs $600. We don't have local town dumps anymore. It gets shipped out of state and costs a fortune. I paid a little over $200 in high quality deck screws to install ~ 500 sq. ft. of my own "re-skinned" deck last year. Yeah, it was ipe and I went first class. Enough. Point is if we can't strip these acrylics substantially cheaper than wood replacement, we should be in another line of work. And may be in another few years.

Cujo, My apoigy for the missed name. If I was Cujo, I certainly would not want to be called Pam. Please don't bite. Misinterpretation is the bane of all communitcation. When you stated re-skinned, I honestly thought your were speaking of re-applying an acrylic. There are quite a few of us out there that only do wood. No concrete, no housewashing, no other pressure washing type of work, and at least some of us are concened. I'll agree that if most of the wood is beyond repair and rotting. Tear it down, build it back up. Common sense. I'm not a deck builder. What I am concerned with is fixing these problems. Like many, I am now prescreening my calls for estimates. This is not a professional approach. Wood guys should solve problems. A lot of these acrylic nightmares are not rotting at the time of the call for help. Granted, every job is different, and there is no common solution. But I am seeing more of these failed acrylics than ever before. Check out Consumer Reports this month. The problem is only going to get worst. If you want to be a professional in the wood business. we are all going to have to learn how to deal with the problem. I cannot accept that wood replacement is cheaper than stripping. Been fun, let's see what the future brings....

Ken, I partially agree. Bad prep is part of the problem. Cabot's 1800 series clearly states on the can and spec sheets that an oil based primer must be used. Homeowners and quick buck contractors are not using the primer. I'm not sure about Behr's, their products are not worth the time to read the label. If prepped correctly and moisture readings are proper prior to application, I'm sure that acrylics will outlast any deck stain currently offered. But no homeowner and few contractors even know what a moisture meter is. The real problem, as far as I can extrapolate, is when the acrylic starts to fail. It may not be readily seen for a year or so, but moisture gets into the wood with no where to go. Liquid water gets into the failed areas, and cannot evaporate. Cedar is especially vunerable. It rots if it stays wet. One cedar deck I looked at with Cabots 1800 series applied two years ago is literally rotting as I write this. Another large PT deck, built 6 yrs. ago, with the 3 separate applications of Behr's acrylic is actually starting to self destruct. The horizontal deck boards have swelled to the point of no gaps between them, pulling the top stair trim and top stair risers apart. And you cannot strip this stuff for a reasonable cost. I'm not sure if an oil based primer would help in stripping, cause I've never seen a job where it was used. F-18 at 24 oz. to the gallon is only effective in failed or partially failed areas. I use to use HD-80, before "Boost". But they are still both NaOH based strippers that are not going to emulsify acrylic. My guess is if the NaOH can get between the acrylic and wood or 2nd stain underneath, it can break the "bond" of the finish. Yeah, they may get a lot of it off but you're still stuck sanding for an ungodly number of hours if you want to get it all off. Cause if 'ya don't, it will start peeling like dead skin, negating whatever you applied. I swear, I will never put any film forming finish on exterior horizontal wood. And until someone recomends a "breathable" latex, it ain't going to on two tone verticals either.

Pam, Read the whole thread. Point was the cost of living in certain areas, not plumbers as compared to pressure washers. As far as "re-skinning", I assume you mean laying down another acrylic. Not on your life. I've got 3 people now with rotting wood due to this stuff and you think I'm going to add to the problem? Tell me how to strip this junk in a cost effective way. I'll be more than pleased to eat my words.

Dale, You would not believe the prices for real estate, property/school taxes, and services in this area of NJ. A plumber is $100/hr. I have a customer that just paid over $700 to have a kitchen sink hooked up. Working class people cannot buy a single family home. I'm not a deck builder, but the cheapest I have seen advertised was $15/sq. ft. in a less expensive area of NJ. I guarantee that the $15 a foot doesn't buy a whole lot. I will not put an acrylic stain on any wood. Primed or not, its garbage. Until there is a stripper thats effective, easy to apply, and reasonable in price, you're just passing a huge problem to yourself or the next guy, harming the wood when it starts to fail, and creating a substantial future expense to the customer. After doing a deck last year, I will not put a latex on vertical wood. The PT spindles and base were rotting, you could poke a hole through areas with your finger. I touched it up for them, but the customer knows it is going to need to be replaced. If it has to be a solid, it will only be oil based. When the VOC police finally shut that supply down, i guess its off to Costa Rica and retire. Someone mentioned a breathable latex, I think it was Jon. if it allows the wood to dry out after the finish fails, I would like to know more.

No one. I now understand why they do these tests in a lab. Of course, their results don't necessarily apply under field conditions but if you are going to compare different products, the conditions have to be ideal. I didn't get back to the site until ~ 22 hrs after application. It started raining ~ 8 hrs. after these strippers were applied and continued off and on the following day. No telling how the water affected each product, but I doubt it was helpful to any. All four had allowed the acrylic to re-emulsify (think thats the right word) or harden. What is odd is that both colors were the same Behr's markings on the cans, but the white stain acted more like a latex. In 45 min. BFS II had it bubbled up whereas on the blue horizontal, it had just begun to work. I would like to apologize for the previous post. I certainly was not referring to members of this board or others that try and do a good job. Its been a most frustrating week trying to pick up the pieces on wood that uninformed contractors have left me to deal with. Just curious. Has anyone stripped an acrylic and found an oil base primer underneath? If so, did it make the acrylic more "strippable" ? As far as the strippers go, I do have some observations. Fastest Acting - Removall 310. Within ~ 25 minutes had really started to eat the top layer of acrylic to the point of possible removal with a pressure washer. Most Effective - Have to give this to Back to Nature's BFS II. It just had started working after an hour but appears to have gotten at least partially through all three coats before it dried and the finish started to re-emulsify. The development stripper had started wrinkling the top after an hour. Did not wait around to see if a little move time could have removed the top acrylic layer with washing. Ready Strip Deck needed agitation to get it to start working. I think this may remove a single layer of this acrylic with a little help by brushing and reapplication. If I were going to tackle this job (which I won't), I think I would have both Back to Nature's BFS II and Removall 310 on site. First application would be Removall to get the top layer of acrylic off quickly. As some surfaces appear to have only one layer left of acrylic, a lot of bare wood would be exposed. Next, BFS II would be applied and allowed to work. This would remove the one or two additional layers of acrylic.

Ryan, Thank god its raining and I can take the day off. Here's a picture I just shot. Sanded with 80 grit after putting in about 1200 plugs, cleaned with sodium percarbonate & brightened with citric acid. Oiled with Cabot's Australian Timber Oil, Mahogany Flame color. All this was done a little over a year ago. This deck gets full sun virtually all day. Obvious where the mat was, even that is faded. If you are going to finish it, plan on doing it every year. Ipe is so hard and dense, you can't get much oil into the wood. But why even think of finishing it? When you mentioned considering installing a composite, I assumed one of the primary reasons was low maintenance. Ipe doesn't need a finish. Its virtually rot and insect proof, hard as nails, and water can't penetrate. The stuff sinks in water. It will naturally fade to a silver/grey color, similar to weathered teak.

Mark, As far as I know, sodium hydroxide strippers are not all that great in stripping latex or acrylics. They seem to partially work in failed areas where the stripper can get to the wood or lower layers to help break the bond but I think it may be hard to totally remove many layers of latex with only sodium hydroxide. Theres a stripper made by Biowash called Stripex-L. I see you are also in NJ and I know that Sipersteins use to carry it. Or you could try some local paint stores. Beware, the stuff is expensive and will only remove one layer of latex at a time. Have not used it in a long time but remember that it worked pretty well on latex. Be careful if buying as there's another Biowash product called Stripex which is not formulated for latex.

Ryan, I think you will find ipe less expensive than composites. I replaced my deck, steps, and top rail last year with ipe and 5/4 x 6 cost $1.78 per linear ft. The tough part is installing it correctly. The following link addresses this on another web site. http://www.deckcare.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1749&highlight=ipe+stainless+steel Carbide tools are a must. On any cuts, make sure to apply a special sealent to prevent checking. When you get the wood at the lumber yard, there should be a waxy substance on both ends. Forget the name of the stuff but the lumber retailer should carry it. Use stainless steel screws, preferably with a torx or square drive head. Swan Secure Products, Inc. of Baltimore, Md. sells terrific fasteners. I used their #305 Swaneze finishing stainless steel screws, size #7 x 3" with only a few stripped heads. Swan has a web site and you can order online. With stainless fasteners and ipe, the deck will probably outlive your house!

Beth, I see few composite decks in this area but have cleaned and repaired a few. I don't know if it is the installers fault or that the material swells but two Trex decks that I worked on had no gaps between the boards. On one deck, two boards had buckled up from swelling and had to be removed, ripped 1/4", and reinstalled. Not a fun job. Trying to clean these two was a nightmare. Water pooled up an inch deep & I had to use the pressure washer to constantly "push" the water over the edge. The poor owners must have a skating rink in the winter. Of course the grey "weathered" look was gone and the material reverted back to an ugly brown. Both were warned of this. The stuff is very expensive. Why not buy and install ipe?

A lot of us wood guys use sodium percarbonate based cleaners. To mix, you really need to use hot water to get it to dissolve into solution. My problem is passing the hot mix through a Shurflo. Its got to be some kind of vapor lock or thermal problem as the pump pressure switch doesn't shut off & I get a lot of intermittent flow & have to prime. This is a brand new replacement pump. Once the mix cools down, everything works normally. No problems with strippers or neutralizers which are mixed with cold water. Any suggestions for a possible fix?

Henry, Whats an m5? i'd try it but I don't think I own one.