RPetry

Daniel, October 21st is the 6 month date. Both the oxalic and citric sides of the toprail still have RS present, as well as the ipe' floor and teak furniture. A surprise as I did not think an initial application would last this long.

That is possible. Ready Seal will quickly penetrate through some old stains, but not others. You should look at the wood when it is dry, not wet from rain. If there are wet stain areas a day or two after stain application, either work the stain into the wood with a rag and mineral spirits or just wipe the excess off with a dry rag. Hey Ken, been busy. Judy and I picked up another puppy, this one a female English Springer Spaniel from the breeder of our last one. With a 6 month male Schnauzer and a 3 month Springer, things have been a bit hectic. Have not gotten back to that ipe' job to take a look. And have not heard a peep from our friend. No news is good news!

Daniel said: Not true. We use a lot of Ready Seal. Finished a PT job last week, 2 apps. of oil and the dog and customers were using the deck within 4 hours of final stain. Think about it. If every contractor on this board that uses RS had to tell their customers to not use their decks for 2 weeks, we would be using another stain. Wolman's F&P, RS, Cabot's solids, WTW, will all show some "oily sheen" after a rain soon after application. No big deal unless you have white cashmere carpeting or rugs. Then tell you customers to wipe their feet for 48 hours.

Beth stated: This may not be possible as I assume vBulletin is a closed source system. Ideally, you would leave the transparency up to the poster. For example, I start a new thread in a wood forum. A checkbox is provided to "hide" this new thread from non-members. If a thread is "open", each individual contributor to that thread has the checkbox option to "hide" his posted response. This may lead to some disjointed threads to the general reading public, but IMO is better than an outright ban. Going a step further, each member has a default setting, either "open" or "hide" in their member profile. This could be changed on an individual post basis by the aforementioned checkbox.

Kevin, You are correct, this is a DIY thread which I assume is open to the public. When I posted the above, I thought it was in a wood forum. Must be the libertarian streak in me. As an advocate of open source software and a long time user, anything proprietary, especially on web sites, just rubs the wrong way. And goes against the tide. The internet is possibly the best communication and information vehicle in history, or at least 2nd to the invention of the printing press. The public is "banned" from viewing most forums here on TGS. I don't agree with that policy for many reasons, primary being that a lot of customers have found me here. But it goes further than generated business. It goes against the real value, purpose, and trend of the medium. Looking at the various poll results, I am in a small minority.

This thread provided a very valuable service. A consumer was protected from substandard work, and a contractor was offered contacts to materials and a better way of performing his work. As Ken mentioned, maybe Medic will spread the word that there are professional wood restoration companies that are just that ... professional in their business and results. Yet, the wood forums remain closed to the public. Don't know how Medic snuck in, but I hope others have the tenacity to get around this ban.

Rich, We only work on exterior wood and do not run our PW's as long or hard as others doing flatwork etc. And with the climate here in the Northeast, the season is ~ 7 months.

Been running a Hydrotek PW with a Vanguard twin engine for coming up on 5 seasons. Change the synthetic oil (Mobil 1) once a year. Zero problems to date.

Carlos, Many "woodies" here use Ready Seal, ESI's Woodtux, or Baker's Grey Away. I think I am correct in saying that all three products are marketed as "contractors only" being that they are distributed through specialty outlets such as Sunbrite, ACR, The Sealer Store and possibly others. As far as I know, none of these stains are available to Joe Public on a store shelf. We have had a terrific relationship with Ready Seal for the past 5 years. PM me if you need more info. One thing you may want to keep in mind. I believe California is subject to the same or similar VOC standards as the 7 states here in the Northeast. Have no idea of potential problems with a non compliant product sold by a retailer, but the environmental police and potential liability should be something to consider.

Carlos, A fundamental question. Is your pupose to offer wood stains at the retail level, ie: Stoneyard, or direct use as a contractor?

Jim, We had the, I guess, batch #1 of WoodTux, WHG, applied on vertical ipe' and 4 5/4 x 6 ipe' deck boards for about 8 weeks before stripping it off and putting on the Woodzotic color. I say batch #1, as the fiver was received with no "separation", and the WT certainly did not cure on ipe' without a lot of time and help. With 4 oz. of Japan Dryer added per gallon, it still took 3 to 4 days to dry on the ipe'. 8 weeks after the stain was applied it looked fine. Also stripped easily at 6 oz. ACR 760 wood stripper to a gallon of water.

With the old, pre VOC Aussie oil on ipe', we always stripped it off and started anew. Otherwise, the finish would look blochy or muddy. Not sure of the new formula as we no longer use the product, but the old Aussie oil had tung oil in it. Something in the stain did not strip out well and I think it was the tung oil.

Kevin said: Hah! Wanna bet? You were not around for the Great Bleach Debate. Multiple pages on just that subject. Yeah, and there is arsenic in chocolate. If memory serves me correctly, you cannot neutralize sodium hypochlorite with an acid. There is a chemical, forget what it is, but its pretty obscure.

Ahhh, The Great Bleach Debate. What a classic. That was the best thread on TGS in the 5 yrs. I've been a member. As I recall, there was ample evidence presented that sodium hydroxide is much more destructive of wood lignin compared to sodium hypochlorite.

Hey Jeff, Throwing darts at a Hillary picture right now, I'm doing just fine. Rumor has it that you are endorsing Ron Paul for President! Finally saw the light? Kidding of course. After a week lull, the wood business has picked up again which is great as August is usually a slow month. Hope it lasts through October. I should come down there this winter to learn condo/building cleaning from the KING. The market is wide open here in my area with a ton of opportunity. But I must have some kind of genetic defect, just can't find any enthusiasm for cleaning vinyl or concrete. There is just something different about wood....

Amy, Teak is indigenous to Asia and is produced primarily in India, Burma, Indonesia, and Thailand. Never heard of teak from the Caribbean. The wood may be something else, possibly similar to teak. Just like wood marketed as "Phillipine Mahogany" which is not anything close to true mahogany at all. In six years in this business, have never seen a true teak deck let alone worked on one. The following picture is plantation grown Burmese teak furniture stained with Ready Seal light brown.

Rod, Seeing your "Don Juan" quote sparked my interest, having read every Castaneda book two or three times in the past. Went off and "googled" to see what Carlos has been up to the past 30 years. History has not been kind. The veracity of his writings appears to not have held up under scrutiny. A recent interesting article in Salon sums up the intervening years and can be found at: http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2007/04/12/castaneda/

Rod, I don't quite know where to start. In Nov. 2005 I wrote up a detailed product review here on TGS when first using WT on PT wood. While working in the neighborhood this spring, took a look at that deck. The vertical wood held up OK but the horizontal top rail and deck boards were nearly bare, very little stain remaining on the wood. The neighbor's deck which we did with RS six months earlier, in May of 2005, still had plenty of visible stain and pigment on the horizontal wood. The difference was like night and day. Now maybe one neighbor used their deck more than the other. Maybe the WT customer "abused" their wood some way. I do not know. What I do know is that both decks were built at the same time with the same wood, and have the same exposure. Actually, the WT deck is more shaded. Since that time I have ordered two other, different 5'ers of WT. One, formulated in the spring of 2006, was very thick and seemed similar to the 2005 product. Never used it, its still sitting in the garage. The other was for this job, and was part of the "non-drying" batch of stain. The stain was much less viscous and evenly blended compared to the two older WT pails. With Japan Dryer added, the vertcal wood finally cured in about 3 days, but the first two sections of horizontal wood was still tacky. The customer was not pleased and we wound up stripping it all off. Before the expected howls of protest, the job was ipe' about 9 months old. This "non drying" batch may have been fine for softwoods such as PT or cedar, or even hardwoods such as mahogany that will take a good amount of stain. Sure did not cure correctly on ipe'. Initially, we first did a very light strip / neutralize to get rid of some remaining Messmer's that had been applied by the builder in October 2006. Lambswooled the WT on the vertical wood, a small front porch, and part of the rear deck. Aside from the not curing problem, the vertical wood looked fine, while the horizontal deck section looked uneven or "mottled" a few days after application. Don't know if this was due to a non curing problem, using a lambswool rub instead of a "stain and wipe" method, the inherent nature of the stain after a few days, or not sanding the ipe' beforehand. Did a test on 4 unstained deck boards. Sanded with a random orbital 60 grit and again lambswooled some WT. It still did not cure, which was expected, but the finish came out much better looking. Then the wait. Spoke with Russell a few times on when a "corrected" batch of WT would be available. The customer liked the color of Ken's WoodZotic, so when that product was available, had the customer purchase it directly from Ken. Stripped off all the old WT with 6 oz. / gal. of NaOH, neutralized with 6 oz. / gal. of oxalic, and rinsed the ipe' very well. The WT stripped off very easily, and though this was the "non curing" stain, I would assume the corrected or "classic" WT would strip the same. Then we sanded with 60 grit. Handrail, flat fascia board, steps, stringers, front porch, and the full rear deck floors. Again, lambswooled the WT (actually WoodZotic, which I assume is WT with a custom color) on the vertical wood. For the horizontal ipe', this time we natural bristle brushed the WoodZotic on the wood, allowed it to "sit" for ~ 10 minutes, and wiped up the excess with shop towels. Sunny, mid 80's that day, and the stain set up pretty quickly. Did not have any "shiney" spots. Stopped by the job 3 days after finishing staining. Dried or cured fine. The balustrade vertical wood looked fine. The horizontal wood looked terrific where the ipe' had only been lightly stripped once of the Messmer's. The previously stained WT stripped twice horizontal ipe' still looked a bit uneven or mottled to my eye, but we did get paid for the job. Kind of surprised me as this ipe' was sanded, but maybe the finish evens out over time. Don't know as I have not been back. Did not take pictures as there was standing water and leaves all over the wood from a storm the previous night. You asked for impressions of the product. First the good. The stain looks really terrific on ipe' as shown in the picture on the first page of this thread. The deck floor shown is part of the "once lightly stripped" ipe' and looks much better, but again, the twice stripped floor may have evened out. The section of balustrade shown was stripped twice and looks fine. A gallon of WT lasts forever on ipe'. We probably got between 350-400 sq. ft. per gallon of stain. Using lambswool to stain the vertical wood results in a very nice finish and is quick to do. Now the downside. As we have and continue to use Ready Seal for nearly all our exterior wood staining, my impressions come from that perspective. Maybe my timing is bad but it took 4 times before I received a WT product that I would consider well blended, of workable consistancy, and cures correctly. Hopefully, ESI has its formula now fixed and will supply a consistant product in the future. I would use WT / WoodZotic on ipe' again. Applying WT on horizontal surfaces is a bit labor intensive. The "apply, wait awhile, and wipe off" method takes a lot of time. But being this was our first time, I'm sure productivity would increase with more experience. We went through a ton of shop towels on this job. Cleanup is a real pain. My natural bristle brushes had to be cleaned three times in mineral spirits. Even the 5 gal. bucket holding the used shop towels needed a mineral spirit cleaning. I know that many WT contractors use sprayers and it would seem the expense of mineral spirits could get a bit much but even more problematic is getting rid of used mineral spirits in a legal and environmentally acceptable manner. If we are back in the area this season, I'll stop by the job to see if the floor finish has evened out and take some pictures. I'll certainly make it there next year to see how the finish is holding up over time.

Never know what you will find on TGS, Carlos Castaneda was about the last thing I expected. Fascinating series of books for their time, the 60's and 70's. Castaneda has not worn well, and has been pretty much discredited over time. Regardless, the series of books is an interesting read.

Brian, I tackled a few latex jobs years ago when first starting out. There was, and maybe still is a stripper named Stripex-L, maybe from Napier Environmental? Anyway, it is made for stripping latex exterior stains and does a good job. However, it will only strip one coat of latex at a time. And it is not cheap, years ago it retailed for ~ $20 / gal. I think Daniel (posts under "Plainpainter") has a homebrew that also strips latex stains. May want to give him a call.

Beth & Rod, Your site, you do what you want. But I do not agree or care for this new restrictive policy for two primary reasons. The first is self serving. Over the years customers have found my company through TGS. Related is what Ken mentioned, Google ranking of my company's web site. TGS has been beneficial to my business. Now, aside from a few contractor referrals, it is no longer valuable in generating new business. Second is a libertarian trait and a historical observation. The pervasiveness of the internet has changed the old autocratic access to information. Proprietary software, ideas, and information is slowly falling by the wayside. It is a much more egalitarian model which will only grow over time. You are going against the flow. We only work on exterior wood so that is my perspective. Contrary to others, I could care less that my competition or DIY's learn proper techniques and access to good products. Actually, I welcome it. The more professional wood restoration companies become, the better it is for all of us. I would much rather sell to an educated consumer or bid against a competitor that does high quality work. And DIY's will always be around. Makes my job easier when they finally become tired of doing the work themselves.

Additional report. This past Friday, we finished up an ipe' job with the "new", or "fixed" WT at about 4:00 PM. Around 10:00 PM that night, all *ell broke loose with thunder, lightning, high wind, and torrential downpours. Stopped by the job early yesterday morning to check on the finish. After toweling off standing water from a portion of the last stained section, it appeared that the finish had not spotted or been effected by the heavy rain.

Daniel, Denatured alcohol?

Rod, I'll do an initial review and product impression sometime later this week when I may have a bit of free time. Also want to see the wood after curing. Daniel asked: No, this is my first deck with oxalic which was mixed at 6 oz. per gal. and allowed to dwell for ~ 10 minutes. Rinsed very well with lots of water. Playing with my own ipe' deck this spring, it looked like the oxalic may have opened up the wood just a bit more than citric. Very small, very subjective potential difference. Dale observed: Hah!, good eye. The deck floor was stained opposite of what would be normal. This was due to getting the "lower" deck floor done first to get some deck furniture back on as soon as possible. The weather Friday was also a big factor. High chance of torrential thunderstorms and wanted to make sure at least the lower deck was done first and had some time to cure. Rich asked: When building with ipe', it is normal to seal all end cuts with a product called "Anchor Seal". This is suppose to help prevent checking of the cut ends. Its a very viscous, waxy liquid. That is what you are seeing on the end grain. There are ipe' end caps that go on top of the posts but are not installed in the picture.

Hey Scott! How's the oracle of Omaha? Hope you and the bride are well in the true mid America. Thats a trick I have yet needed to duplicate. Please tell Eric to keep his lousy pool chlorine off my RS deck! Off to the Jersey shore. Nebraska needs an ocean!