Mike Williamson

John: As I said, it isn't as simple as "Why didn't God stop the suffering, or avoid it altogether." Part of the problem is our perspective...It is very limited. All we can see is the man who died and left his family alone, or the church full of people who were killed worshipping God. God sees everything, and knows every miniscule impact that every eventuality has. He may see that the man who died and left his family alone was the catalyst for the rest of His family to begin searching for and finding God...Or it may be any number of other things. The church full of worshippers killed by the tornado may have been the thing that it took for many others in the town to reach out for God..As I said, only God knows it all, and only He knows the outcome of everything that happens.

I suppose the question is whether induction into the hall of fame is based strictly on accomplishments on the field, or does it also factor in character.

You just have to stop trying to figure out the riddle and answer the questions.

Beth: Excellent answer! As for why God allows suffering, that's a pretty complicated subject. We can ask why God allowed those people to suffer and/or die in that plane crash, but if we ask that, we must also ask why God allows anyone to suffer at all. It would be nice (from our perspective) to live happy and carefree lives free from anything bad. That isn't how the world we live in works. It isn't as simple as to just say "Well, if God loved us He'd take away all the bad things".

JohnT: God's been thumping all your life, as He does with everyone...Some choose to listen, others not. Good luck in your search.

Paul: While I may not agree with everything you have said in your posts in this thread (though I do agree with most), you have done an extraordinary job of explaining where you're coming from, and why. You said what I have been trying to say all along...I can't prove any of this to anyone, all I can do is share what I know and what I've experienced, and if that helps someone find God, or grow just a little closer, then I've done all God expects of me. There's a lot of circumstantial evidence for the existence of God. People just have to want to see it.

Dale: What I mean when I say that God has proven Himself to me in many ways that I can't explain to you is that, while I can share those experiences with you, they don't become real to you just because you hear them. It is like trying to explain something you have seen to someone who hasn't seen it. You can share what you've seen, describe it in detail, but the sharing won't change the fact that the other person has not seen it. It doesn't prove anything to them, unless they take your words by faith. I certainly don't expect you to believe what I say simply because I say it. My experiences don't equate to proof on your part. I can tell you of countless times God has spoken to me through His word, through the words of others, or through other means. However, my telling you these things doesn't give you proof that they are true. Of course I think I'm right! If I thought I was wrong I'd be searching for what was right! Does that mean I think I know everything about God, or about what He desires of us? Does that mean that I'm right in everything I think I'm right in? Not at all. It simply means that I believe God has led me to certain levels of truth. He's still leading me, and will be doing so until the day I die or stop following. I realize that some in this world don't like the concept, especially where religion is concerned, of saying "This is right, and that's wrong". That doesn't change what I believe to be right. It isn't simply "blind faith" as JohnT has mentioned several times in this thread. That would simply be taking a concept or idea at face value without any thought or evidence whatsoever. You want to know where in the bible it says that God expects faith? It is prevalent throughout scripture. Even a cursory reading of the bible reveals this...it is probably the clearest and most prevalent message in scripture. Here are just a couple examples... Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) You mention finding a verse and then interpreting it in a certain way. As I've said, the message faith is clear. It isn't ambiguous. It is probably one of the few areas that virtually every bible scholar can agree upon...God demands faith. How does this make it true? It either is true, or it isn't. That's a question each has to answer for themselves, whether to accept that the bible is true, or to reject it. There's plenty of things about the bible that indicate that it is in fact true, but that's a much too complex and involved discussion to get into here. If a person seriously wants to find out for themselves one way or the other, there's plenty of information out there. JohnT: You keep saying religion is based on blind faith, but that simply isn't the case. I understand why you think that, and I certainly don't expect my saying so to change your mind. It is simply a case of you not having the same experinces with God that I, and many others, have. Essentially what you're saying by calling my faith blind faith is that you don't believe that I have had any interaction with God, despite my testimony to the contrary. It appears that there's not much that I could say to change that.

Dale: The thing you have to understand is that I, as a believer, am coming at this from the perspective that God exists, that His word is true, etc etc. To me, there is no question that God exists. When I say that I am held to God's law, I am taking that from the bible. If you don't accept the bible as true, or if you don't accept that there is a God, then it is very difficult for us to communicate in this area (and I'm not saying you don't believe in either, or that you do). Much of what I have said here is what I believe, not what I can prove to you. God has proven it to me, in many many ways...However, that proof is not something I can pass along in such a way that will convince anyone without an excercise in faith...that is, afterall, what God asks of us. Begin walking with Him in faith. It is this exact thing that makes it hard to argue the truth of God and His word with someone who rejects it.....there's no real common ground to begin or continue a discussion or debate. My acceptance of your statement that you're not you is a poor comparison to accepting God on faith. There's plenty of evidence for the existence of God and His communication with mankind for those who desire to see it. Some don't, and never will.

Dale: Forgive me for not presenting both sides to that arguement...I assumed it would go without saying, since my point was precisely that...The actions of men don't validate or invalidate a particular religion (and do beleive I stated it this way in prior posts). Faith and fact aren't exclusive...The facts are the facts. God either exists or doesn't. I think a better title to this threat would be Faith vs. A lack of faith. Neither of us can prove that God does exist, nor can we prove He doesn't. "God's ways are not our ways" is also something the bible says...I may well be something a shaman would say, I have no idea. Please note then when calling logic a "small box" I went on to explain that I was referring to "our" logic, which is usually flawed to one degree or another. We certainly don't understand everything...in fact, we don't understand most things. Sure, we know a lot more than we used to know, but that's a drop in the bucket...My point was that we take what we currently know (or think we know) of the world, of the universe, etc, and try to make God fit into that "small box". You say what was fantasy 10 years ago is reality now (though I'm not sure what you're referring to...). That may well be true. Some things that are fantasy now will be reality in 100 years...Does t hat mean that we now know everything, or that in 100 years we'll know everything? Hardly. We know so little, relatively speaking, yet we walk around acting as if we have it all nailed down, and that God just doesn't fit. The truth is that we're blindly stumbling around in a universe we can barely comprehend.

Jon: How do you know that's not really her picture? They say Dolphins are quite smart...

JohnT: The mistake you keep making is that you're constantly pointing out the things men do when practicing their religion. That's fine, if you're discussing the hypocrisy or the failings of man. The problem is that you're trying to use the hypocrisy and failings of man to invalidate religion. You say that people do this or that wrong, or that they do things that don't make sense, and thus religion makes no sense. My point is that what someone does right or wrong doesn't have any affect upon the message or the truth (or lack of truth) of their particular religion. If I claim to be a Christian and yet murder people, does that make Christianity false? Hardly. It simply makes me a poor follower. For example, you mention a winner of something thanking God, but the loser not thanking God, as if it is evidence that religion is contrary. However, the Bible teaches us to be thankful in ALL things...thus a person who can't be thankful to God in spite of their losing is simply not following their religion in that area. Just because a priest did terrible things and the "church" covered it up, that does not make the religion that the priest or the church false, nor does it make it true. It simply makes them poor followers of their religion. Do lowball pressurewashers who don't know what they're doing make pressurewashing a bad profession? Should homeowners have more sense than to hire ANY pressure washing contractor just because some are lousy? You're right, if you're so determined you can argue against religion all day long, and it would matter little what I had to say. I can't "prove" to you that God exists, nor that any particular religion is true or false. I can simply share my experience, and let you do whatever you wish with it. That's between you and God. The things you've brought up that you're convinced invalidate the t ruth of religion don't drive me crazy at all. I've had plenty of these discussions with folks over the years, and your arguments are nothing new. What you're trying to do is make God fit into the small box you call logic, and it just won't work. Our concept of "logic" and what is "possible" is so limited. God's ways are not our ways.

Dale: The reason I believe it to be faulty is that what you see isn't usually what you get. Many (or most, in my opinion) people put on a facade when dealing with others in a public setting. The clerk at the store that you find most helpful may very well go home and abuse his kids. The friend you know from work who you get along very well with may possibly. be a sexual predator who has either never been caught or never acted on his impulses. You can't tell a whole lot about a person or their true feelings, desires, motivations, or heart by what you see on the surface. That is why I said only God knows the heart, and only God is fit to judge man. I'm not suspicious of everyone, I simply recognize that there are many hidden things inside those around me, some good and some bad, and what I see on the surface isn't a good indicator of what those things are. JohnT: There is nothing at all wrong with discriminating.... Where the problem comes in is when we discriminate based on things that ought not to be reasons for discrimination. If I were to hire a helper, a good basis for discrimination would be if I chose to hire the person who had no criminal record instead of the recently released violent offender. However, if I chose to discriminate based on race, that would be wrong. We SHOULD discriminate. The meaning of that word is very simply to make good, wise decisions, to make a clear distinction. I discriminate when I choose which soap I use, which wand to use, what jobs I'm willing to take, etc. We discriminate every day of our lives. I don't believe this quote intends the meaning of the word used to be the pop-media definition of wrongful discrimination based on things people have no control over such as race, ***, age, etc. As far as discriminating based on sexual orientation, it depends on what your'e talking about. God is clear in His word that practicing homosexuality is a sin. If a church says "no homosexuals can be leaders, or ministers, in the church" that is based on God's law. Granted, many mistreat these folks, and fail to show them God's love, and for that they should be ashamed. However, a lot of folks think that showing God's love to others is not only accepting them as they are, but also condoning them as they are. That's just plain wrong. Whether your firefighter is in heaven or hell is up to God, not be, and I would not be so presumptuous as to apply my reasoning, or my desires, to God (as you have done, by presuming that God surely wouldn't deny a man of such caliber). You see, the criteria God has laid down isn't how much good a man has done, or how selfless he can be in any given moment...it is how that man has reacted to God's commandments and His offer of grace. PaulB: I believe Jesus had the option not to die, regardless of whether he gave up His faith. No man took His life. He gave it, willingly. Yes, he struggled with that, but he walked away from that struggle having chosen to lay down His will to that of God. Dale: The concept minimizes religion in that it bypasses it. The concept of "just do good things and you'll be OK" bypasses the biblical message that we CAN'T "good works" our way back into God's kingdom. The entire OT and the law of Moses was to show us that it doesn't matter how hard we try to toe the line, we simply can't. There's not enough that we can do to take care of the sin nature we have inherited. It was to pave the way in the hearts of men for the messiah. It was, as scripture says, a schoolmaster. Showing us our desperate need for God. Lou: You are right, we are all God's creation. God made all those men and women who have embraces Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc etc. However, that doesn't mean that any one of those religions is true, or right, or correct. To use that logic, then God is the God of satanism. God is the God of all evil religions, and of their evil practices. JohnT: You keep using "Logic" and "Religion" as if they are mutually exclusive terms. They aren't. Many of us use logic to arrive at our religious beliefs. For example, I can look at the extreme complexity of the universe, and to me it is very logical to beleive something so complex MUST have an intelligent designer. To me, that is logical. To you, it may seem ludicrous. We're both exercising logic. One of us is wrong, but we're both using logic. Jon: I agree with just about everything you said, with one exception. While I agree that what people do in the privacy of their own homes is their business as far as mankind goes, God has also made it His business. However, it isn't MY business to worry or concern myself with what they're doing. It is between them and God.

Dale: The commandment "thou shalt not kill" in interpreted literally to mean "thou shalt not murder". God himself directed the killing of people. The problem with taking God's word as anything but literal (except where it is clear it is not literal, as in the parables) is that you then open the door to something the bible speaks out against, private interpretation of the Scriptures. God said what He meant, not what He might have meant given any number of variables.

JohnT: Actually, King Henry didn't start the protestant religion, Martin Luther did. As I posted a minute ago, people's mis-use of God's Word doesn't invalidate that Word. You keep mentioning that religious people kill those who don't believe like them, and in some cases you are right. On the other hand, the overwhelming majority don't. Of those who do, or have in the past, I believe they use religion to attain their own goals. It isn't religion that has caused them to do the things they have done, it is their own selfish and often evil purposes. If it weren't religion, it would be some other tool they'd find to attain their goals. What I would tell anyone in your shoes is to stop looking at man's mis-use of religion, and look at the religion itself. Don't look at what a particular church has done, whether good or bad, in the name of their religion, but rather look at what the religion itself teaches. There are many cases throughout history of men using Christianity to do terrible things to people. This, however, isn't the message of Christianity. Here's an example...If a cop in a small town takes bribes, extorts money from honest folks, and abuses his law-given authority to hurt and abuse the citizens of his jurisdiction, does that mean the laws of that town are wrong, illogical, evil, or invalid? Hardly. It simply means that someone is mis-using the authority given by those laws. It doesn't mean the legal system should be scrapped.

Jon: Of course believing in God doesn't make one good or bad...the bible tells us that even the devil believes in God...and we all know he's not a good dude. Dale: The concept of judging anyone good or bad based on what you see is faulty. You're judging that person based only on what you see, and only God sees the heart, and only God can judge a person. We all make mistakes and do things that are wrong in our lives. We ALL fall short of God's criteria of "good". We ALL have inherited Adam's fallen nature...regardless of our actions in life. We are ALL sinners, falling short of the glory of God, even babies. Not because that baby has done terrible things, but because the sin nature of Adam is passed from generation to generation. Thus the need for Christ's cleansing and covering blood. I do believe that shed blood applies to those who have not yet reached a point in their lives where they can understand their need for God, and their own lost condition. I don't believe a God of love will cast away an infant who died at birth simply because they never got the chance to recognize their need for God and act on it. John: I don't judge you good or bad, whether you embrace my religion or not. That is up to God. God's people are not called to judge, but to teach. What people do with that teaching is between them and God. You are correct that many hide behind their religions, and many abuse and mis-use their religion in many ways. That does not validate or invalidate the religion, no more than an abuse of our legal system invalidates our legal system. What it all comes down to is this: God sets the rules. We don't. It is up to each of us to seek out what it is God expects of mankind, and to act or refuse to act accordingly. That is what we will be judged by. Not our sins. We were born sinful, and piling more sins on top of that won't make any difference at all...If we embrace what God has called us to, sincerely, then willful sinning won't even be an issue. We will be judged on that decision and that decision alone.

Happy Birthday, Reed! Hope you had a cold one for me!

JohnT: My attitude isn't cynical, it is realistic, educated, and based in scripture. As a person who doesn't accept His Word, I can understand your view of my comments as cynical. It would be wonderful if we could just think positive and ignore mankind's dark side, and make it so. That's not the way it is, however. Why do people do good things, regardless of their religious background? Because they have been taught by society that these are the things to do. How selfless and giving is a 1 year old? How bad (or wrong?) is it to call a newborn a sinner? I don't think it is bad or wrong at all. The problem here is that you and I are looking at this from totally different perspectives, and we will probably never agree on this. You are right that "religion" is the driving force behind many conflicts in mankind's history. Does that make religion a bad thing? Hardly. In my mind, it is further proof of our need of God. It isn't a case of man being tricked by religion into doing terrible things, but of man using religion as a justification for doing terrible things. One last thing...It isn't "blind" faith. To you it may seem so, and there's no way I could adequately convey to you my experiences in God. For some it may be a blind faith, but that is simply because those folks have never allowed themselves to move beyond that first step of faith. God is very real, very personal, and very willing and desireous of an intimate, personal, and very real relationship with His creation. Once you have truly walked with Him, it doesn't really matter what the doubters have to say...You move from that first step of faith into an ever growing knowledge of Him. Not faith, not imaginations...KNOWLEDGE. I can't imagine going through life without Him.

Dale: Adam and Eve are in the bible, but the "apple" isn't. The fruit Adam and Eve ate was not mentioned, and since we don't have any "Knowledge of Good and Evil" trees these days, the fruit they ate from that tree is likely unlike anything we know today. As far as people being inherently good, I disagree. I think society has taught most of us what is right and wrong, and we try to live that way, for varying reasons. However, most of us, given the right circumstances, are capable of terrible things. Maybe you're unique, or maybe you don't, won't, or can't recognize those things within yourself. If you look at the world, and the way people treat other people when societal/religious/moral restraints are removed, you begin to understand the evil that man is capable of. As far as any misinterpretations about who would or wouldn't go to hell, whether those things are technicalities, etc etc, that's a vastly more complicated discussion than I want to get into here. Suffice it to say that God is the one who sets the standards, based on what He desires, not us based on what we desire. By "fear and trembling" I don't mean we should sit around shaking in fear of God. That phrase simply conveys the gravity of the issue.

Sorry, ron, for not posting this sooner. I didn't see that anyone had replied until today. http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/tv/foxapollo.html http://www.badastronomy.com It is an interesting astronomy site.

There are just a few things I'd like to point out here. First, the story of Eve and the apple is not in the bible. There is no mention of what type of fruit Eve at from the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It very likely is a fruit different from anything we have today. Thus, the "Eve and apple" is not a mistranslation, but simply a slightly (and harlessly) mistaken tradition. As far as Mary being a virgin, the bible is clear on that. You are correct that the Aramaic word can also mean young woman, but taken in context with the entire scripture, it is clear she was a virgin. She was also not married at the time of Jesus' conception. The one thing everyone ought to keep in mind is that it is God who decides what is the way we can approach him, what He requires of us...it is not we who decide these things. Too many look inward to their own desires in their search for "truth", rather than looking outward to God and His desires. It is the most important thing we can do in our lives, in my opinion....which is why we are told to work out our own salvation. Not flippanty, not whenever we feel like it, not how WE want it to be...but "with fear and trembling". Why? Because our relationship with God will determine where and how we spend eternity. What's more important than that?

He's come right out and said he's doing this to drive competition out of business. The insurance he needs to worry about getting is life insurance.

Ahh, I gotcha! I was missing that you were talking about using SMALLER tips than the machine required for max gpm/psi. You're saying this will not work with a flow type unloader? Wish it would....there are a couple accounts I have that I could do just as well with a good bit lower gpm, and I have to haul water, so it would save me trips to fill the tank.

Tony: Not sure if anyone here is from Ft. Lauderdale, but I think a couple guys on Steve's board are. You might want to check there.

I've got a flow type unloader, and I use various sized tips regularly....my gpm stays constant, my psi is what changes. Maybe I have a unique flow unloader, but I've never heard anyone on any of the boards mention not using tip size to regulate psi...If I want 3000psi, I use a 6.5 tip...If I want a lower psi, I use the corresponding larger tip to drop psi....the same amount of water is passing through the tip, just as a different psi. Am I not understanding the question here?

Maybe I'm totally missing something, but varying the size of your tips will affect pressure NOT volume. If your pump puts out 8gpm at full throttle, it doesn't matter what size tip you're using, you're putting out 8gpm.... The ONLY way I know to reduce your gpm is to cut the throttle...which isn't good on the engine if it is air cooled.