Dale

Thanks Beth. I'll try it. Hope it works ! Dale

Len, You may want to run from this one it sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. Bid on it only if you make it clear that the new coating may fail within months. It kinda sounds like the last coat of paint may have been applied with no or little prep or there was road or wind blown dust or dirt that wasn't cleaned and any coating that is put on top of that can only adhere to the existing coat. So if its peeling in sheets now adding a coat of paint is only doing 2 things..one its adding weight to an a coating that is already loseing adhesion and also in the process of curing a coat of paint there is a lot of force exerted as the coating shrinks. You might want to give it a second thought. Dale

How about just mentioning you have some pics of other similar work you've done and asking is they would like to see them....everyone of them will say yes.

That 10x12 for $368. is about $1.11 sq. for the flats. Not great but not bad...I've done then for less for a simple clean/neut/stain. Maybe I'm being defensive but I'm still in the $1.15-1.35 range. How many hours would you estimate for a 10x12 deck?? When people post that they HAVE to be making $125.-200. mn/hr. just to be worth doing, I think they must be joking. Other trades..carpenters,electricians,plumbers, car mechanics etc. are all in the $55.-75./hr. range and making money hand over fist. So I'm just wondering how many are REALLY making these rates...in the busy season..now..if you go out with 1 helper and work 6 ten hr days ..are you grossing 15-24k a week?...thats with you and 1 helper....are these fish stories?....at least I hope they're fish stories..if not we will be phased out in about 7 yrs. in favor of composites. Maybe I'm misunderstanding how everyone figures hrs.

Sounds High to me...I could never get $2.17 a sq. here...but then again..whats on it now?..what kind of railing?..how many steps?..evelated..landscaped..time restrictions?..etc. What do you mean by "cover to dry" ?

Hi Rod...I'm a little confused about the compatability suggestion..I've always understood it to be the other way around.....maybe this is just for paint films..but because of the hardness of oil and its need to penetrate, oil isn't such a good idea over latex but latex over an oil primer is a good system...just wondering Dale

Cleveland..Cuprinol is now Deckscapes Toner..they do have a cedar tone.

I'm guessing too high a ph. No direct experience with it but from what I read ph. is the major thing in preparing for water based stains...too high a ph. causes milkiness in the finish..too acid and you can get separation of products and premature flaking and peeling.

Cleveland, It's funny you should bring up cwf-uv..its one of the reasons I'm so interested in peoples experience with mildew control. Last fall I stripped a deck and small cedar house that had cwf on it and honestly if it wasn't for the mildew in problem areas the finish looked fine after 7 yrs!!..good color retention..pseudo- Sikkens sheen in tact. I replaced the finish with the X100's prefinish and wet on wet top-coats..labor intensive and product slurping...she paid for the 2-step idea of durability...maybe the cedar was really thirsty, but its already kinda fading. I'll be back there at least 3 times in 7 yrs. How about waterbased?? any experience in the difference in mildew return with water vs. oil? could wasterbased plus a mildewicide be a better option? supposedly some of the new water based finishes out perform the oils i.e. the rap against water based is getting to be mostly a mind-set issue.

..oops..wrong link...www.sdmold.com/removing_mold.html

Hey Rob, Thanks for the input...I kinda missed your reply for a few days. Your point about all the variables is well taken. This is only my 3rd. year in wood restoration so I'm just now getting maintence work and so far THE biggest issue is the beginning of mildew in the lower areas of siding or decks.. maybe its been the unusually wet couple of years...hence my wondering about bleach...I can hear people howling already..aarrooOOOOOooo. anyway I'm juuust aasking what peoples observable long term difference is. This has also made me wonder about the effectiveness of borate treatments i.e. thought they're a more profitable upsell..are they more effective than simply adding a mildewicide to the product you're applying? I recall Greg R mentioning borate isn't all THAT effective against mildew...its more of a pesticide. I'm juust aasking now. For those that have been in the biz more than 3 yrs., what are your DIRECT experiences and observations??.. not sales pitch or rote info.. direct experiences with..bleach vs. percarbs...borates vs. mildewicides .. I know that this goes back to Robs point about reading each project on individual conditions..but there must be some generally agreed upon observations like...huh..ya know that borate don't seem to do all that much...or...that mildewicide sure is easy to use and it really seems to work...or..ya know..no matter what I do I'll be back in 2-3 yrs anyway. Thers a "mold" company site at www.smold.com/removing_mold.html that seems to recommend mildewicides to kill mold.....Not wood speciffic though.

Rob...give up gracefully...no one is going to buy it.lol What does peoples tendency towards laziness..i.e. not wanting to be restricted by safety gear have to do with physics? Heres an experiment.. Mix up some SH. on one hand wear a glove...on the other hand wear your skin...place both hand in the SH for 1 min....remove hands....wait 5 min.....notice any difference?..if you think safety gear is worn to feel good about it but in fact is useless..why wear glasses, gloves, etc.

What makes you say these thing won't prolong your life?? seems like an assumption thats impossible to determine, so it would seem like one would have to go with common sense....if the chems are in fact dangerous..protection does make a difference.....if your talking about perception of safety...thats little more than creating a false illusion.

This is a post I posted on the deckguide board a couple months ago..I thought it was interesting because of the difference in recommended treatment methods. Reed and Alpha were the only responses. I was just wondering if anyone else read about a difference in caring for ACQ or CBA vs. CCA? Its news to me and I thought throwing it out there might be an interesting topic. Rather than blither myself, I'll just qoute Bob Sturgis from Wolmans. "..The application protocol for CCA treated wood remains the same....However, the protocol for caring for the "new" ACQ and CBA pressure-treated wood is quite different. Because ACQ and CBA contain a combination of inorganic and organic compounds. the pressure treated wood being marketed to consumers post 2003 appears to be more prone to mold and mildew and other signs of wear than the CCA pressure-treated wood of the past. They will also react differently to deck and fence coatings. Extensive testing in Wolman Wood Care Products labs has demonstrated that splitting, checking, cracking, and the growth of mold and mildew on these chemically different woods can be curtailed by cleaning the ACQ or CBA-treated and immediately coating it with a penetrating oil-based water repellent, like Wolman Rain-Coat.....then allow the wood to weather for six months........After six months, the wood should be cleaned again and then coated with an oil or water based stain"... This info works both ways...on the one hand it could be used to differentiate yourself from others with your vast knowledge of current techniques....on the other hand it could be seen by a client as a line of crap to drive up the price by needing 2 treatments in year....this could also drive consumers to composites ..but if its true..its true. What do you all think of this info?

What kind of meter do you have? I use an old electrophics that has a toggle for a wet/dry mode. If it was in the dry mode 9 percent correspondes to about 18 percent. Its just a thought.

Jomax is a great paint prep .

James, I agree with that..up here in N. Wis. the temps range from -40 to upper 90's...I was just wondering about your comment about moisture in particular. Another stress on deck coatings is the subtle flex from walking.. but all these things are taken into consideration when formulating the products and if using a quality product ,the right prep, prime..if needed, a solid should hold up very well. Those same forces..rain,snow,heat,cold, being prone to mold etc.are present regardless of the coating. I still prefer semi's.

James, How so?, compared to an "box" that generates moisture on a daily basis?

Hi Paul, I agree, I try to recommend semis on horizontal surfaces but some people are set on a solid color...there are quite a few folks in this area that want their decks to be the same color as their house.

If the prep is done right there should be no problem with a solid as long as its a quality product. Most all coating failures are caused by moisture and the testing of coatings has been in relation to buildings. The main cause of peeling paint or stains is from a process called "moisture drive" where the moisture thats generated in a building from living..cooking, bathing, breathing, heating, etc. is trapped in the building and must have a way out. If there is not enough ventilation the moisture will actually force itself thru the substrate of the walls and push the paint or stain off the surface. But this is not the environment of a deck which should have plenty of air movement around all surfaces. If the moisture content of the wood is at or below recommended specs it should be fine. The only difference in a soild vs. semi is looks..if you're going to use a soild stain or a paint you loose the beauty of the wood.

That'll work, but you might want to use something other than steel wool if you ues a water poly..it would probably be o.k. but the steel may stain with a water based if any breaks off..even very small pieces

John, Boy,..you got that right...I'm always ready to run when I hand them the estimate....sometimes they just sorta stand there ...pupils dilating and twitching...others seem to go blank and stare into the distance as if recieving a voice from the beyond...others are sure I put the decimal point in the wrong place...lol. actually I'm very reasonable....I could never get the $1.75 sq. plus materials. Luckily I live way up north and there is a bounty of people with second homes on the lakes and they take pride in their investments..One of the things I hear alot is their amazement in a contractor who takes pride in their work and actually communicates with them and shows up when they say they will.

Jeffrey, Try shaving some finish off and put it in some alcohol or acteone if its shellac it should dissolve..lacquer shouldn't dissolve maybe get gummy and bunch up..or try lacqer thinner, that should dissolve lacquer

John, Thanks for clarifying...so that comes to about .28 a sq...I was wondering if anyone ever asked why a fence was so much a sq. and a deck or house was so much more??...less detailing in fences for sure.

Hi Ryan, I guess the way I figured it was.. John mentioned $1. Ln. Ft. one side of fence and $.75 Ln. Ft. the other, so on a 6 ft tall fence thats 12 sq.ft for $1.75 or about $.15 a sq.ft...actually its less than .15 sq.ft. because one side of the fence usually has some cross members and posts or 4x4's that aren't in the numbers if you just double the sq.ft. of the flat side of the fence....But on a wall or a deck...I know I'm low on this but it's all the market can bare here....I'm at about $1.30 a sq.ft. and I'm sure John is at least that much....so I was just wondering if anyone questioned John about how a fence can be restored for $.15 - a sq.ft....but a wall or deck has to be $1.++ a SQ. ft....I could be misunderstanding this...wouldn't be the first time.