24" larger surface cleaners

[sflasealcoatinginc 14]

Anyone using 24" or larger surface cleaners?? Im just curious becuase i cant seem to find a surface cleaner larger than 24" without wheels. Becuase all we do is pavers ive never tried anything with wheels becuase i may get a little bumpy going over all the pavers. I have 4 20" right now and have worked fine ...Finished many 30,000+ sq ft jobs with them but i found a whisper 36" with 4 caster wheels for 849.99 Any thoughts??

[Lightning Gene 66]

Really depends on how many gpm your machine is whether or not it will take a larger surfacer....

[John T 744]

How many GPM's is a factor on the size of Surface machine you use. I've never tried this because my Surface machines were always with casters or wheels and at least 27 inches but you can try a bigger surface machine and just take the casters off to see how it runs..if your Power washer is powerful enough as in GPM's.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Revisting the o'l 'gpm dictates the size' thing again I see...

Sorry but it is untrue in many respects. Not looking forward to going in depth here as I've delved before here and elsewhere BUT it more about the specific make/model surfacer, or swivel, or amount of bars, or how they adjusted that sets limits to how well a larger may or may not actually clean. It's about time of pressure on one spot. The size area cleaned by surface cleaners is not akin to a wand tips fan size and its lack of effectiveness as it gets larger period. Nor is it akin to a turbo nozzle either for those maybe comparing some theory of more power in smaller area. Distance to ground from orifice gets larger on any fan could be intertwined here but anyways I'll get to the points..

Picture it this way...the swath or arc made by a tip on a bar of a 20" cleans just as well as one of a 32+" if it has same contact time. The donut shape area cleaned by either is driven by a very miniscule amount of energy provided by the back thrust of the water hitting the surface rather than some mythical tapping of the machines power. The volume or psi is not any different between the two size. Both sizes can work with only two tips which is example I refer to in a 32". I contend that when you get down there underneith and measure the bar lengths that you'll see that there is only 6" of bar length difference for each bar between a 20" and a 32" surfacer. The weight difference of the extra material is so small that any slowdown to the backthrust power to turn the bar is tiny. In fact the speed of the bar turning is a misunderstood thing in terms of what it does for cleaning effectivness.

Sometimes it described that the assembly needs to turn at thousands of rpm with some idea that speed cleans. Nope, equaling amounts of time on contact clean when cleaning units and tips are same pound for pound. When you hand wand your on a spot one time for a small time at very low rpm (none..lol). When you 20" at 2k rpm your on a spot many times for a small time to end up with some amount of total contact time either less, equal, or more than a wand or 32". Tip distance on a 20" is same as wand or a 32" and therefore just as effective. When your total on contact time is more with a 20" your donut area cleaned is of course smaller compared to a 32" and if sitting there or moving slow you of course got more time on contact then the wand. Since you did not make effort to move it the cleaning is more/better than a wand and the area larger. On a 32" the time it takes the extra 6" of bar to cover its half circle is about nothing and of no meaningful effect to rpm... many often site or compute such exagerated effect with being able to outwalk a surfacer when the loss is pretty much unimportant.

Could ask why would one want to think about outwalking as walking and swinging is not much fun. Slow down and let the backthrust do the work for you..

*Fact is the amount of rpm increase needed on a 32" to match same as a 20" is absolutely NOTHING, But the energy increase to keep it same rpm is very marginal as discussed earlier*...Maybe reread that a couple time if you miss the point of this post. :)

Experience I have with walking different type floor machineries with many different fixed rpms as well as adjustments on my 32" (5gpm) surfacer tells me you can not outwalk a few hundred rpm anymore than you can a couple thousand rpm. The idea that you can comes from picturing a real slow turning assembly where you jerk it forward before the tips could come and swath over area a certain amount of times..aka zebra stripes..In reality 500rpm is about enough to prevent..

When you use a 20" it usually is overkill/more time on spot than needed in terms of outwalking whether adjusted fast (2k) or slow(500). If rpm is down in the hundreds via tip angle adjust the cleaning can be actually better due to the tip angle itself but no better due to rpm increase. It cleans no more amount of space as it still only a 20" and any lack of rpm gives back no energy in way of cleaning units but rather only more time on spot during a single revolution. It all balances out as it won't do as many cycles around.

Make a 12' surfacer with two 6' bars and two tips and yea maybe the backthrust will be too weak to turn the bar assembly to do but a snails pace to avoid striping but look at it this way..on a 24x12 pad you only need to expend enough man energy to move it 12 feet one direction. If its rotation were gear driven same revolutions you give no energy back to the actual arc being cleaned as none was being sapped in first place. Only thing that was happening was a dilution of cleaning due to the long path/arc/swath going way around. If it too slow for ya go ahead and stick a sprocket on the pipe shaft coming off the rotating union and run a gear reduced gas motor to it. The same tip cleaning effectiveness/cleaning units/etc. will hit each individual spot through the donut arc with same power as a wand, 20", 32" 36", etc..

Why it not done?..maybe cause our unions can't handle the assembly weight, they too big for easy use and transport, cost too much...

End of story...

I hope anyways, I hope this goes some distance to opening peoples minds of what is possable...nyt now it late..lol :)

[sflasealcoatinginc 14]

Sorry should have mentioned i have 2 24hp 3500 psi 8 gpm machines... I can pretty much run with my 20 inchers lol...but im thinking an addition of a big surfaqce cleaner would help a lil if i can handle the wheels

[Kory 14]

My Big Guy works fine.

[PWkid 79]

I love my 28" big guy and my 36" maxima. They work flawlessly. I gave up on floaters when I went to larger gpm machines. These are my opinions only I am sure you will get other opinions from the guys out west. lol

[buyhighpsi 14]

Have you checked out All Pressure Washers prices?

They are the cheapest I have seen on the net. They are part of the Manufacturerer of the stuff, Pressure Pro out of Fort Pierce. The factory owns them so they have the best prices around for everything. They sell cheaper than anyone I hear.

Check it out.

joe

[John T 744]

Revisting the o'l 'gpm dictates the size' thing again I see...

Sorry but it is untrue in many respects. Not looking forward to going in depth here as I've delved before here and elsewhere BUT it more about the specific make/model surfacer, or swivel, or amount of bars, or how they adjusted that sets limits to how well a larger may or may not actually clean. It's about time of pressure on one spot. The size area cleaned by surface cleaners is not akin to a wand tips fan size and its lack of effectiveness as it gets larger period. Nor is it akin to a turbo nozzle either for those maybe comparing some theory of more power in smaller area. Distance to ground from orifice gets larger on any fan could be intertwined here but anyways I'll get to the points..

Picture it this way...the swath or arc made by a tip on a bar of a 20" cleans just as well as one of a 32+" if it has same contact time. The donut shape area cleaned by either is driven by a very miniscule amount of energy provided by the back thrust of the water hitting the surface rather than some mythical tapping of the machines power. The volume or psi is not any different between the two size. Both sizes can work with only two tips which is example I refer to in a 32". I contend that when you get down there underneith and measure the bar lengths that you'll see that there is only 6" of bar length difference for each bar between a 20" and a 32" surfacer. The weight difference of the extra material is so small that any slowdown to the backthrust power to turn the bar is tiny. In fact the speed of the bar turning is a misunderstood thing in terms of what it does for cleaning effectivness.

Sometimes it described that the assembly needs to turn at thousands of rpm with some idea that speed cleans. Nope, equaling amounts of time on contact clean when cleaning units and tips are same pound for pound. When you hand wand your on a spot one time for a small time at very low rpm (none..lol). When you 20" at 2k rpm your on a spot many times for a small time to end up with some amount of total contact time either less, equal, or more than a wand or 32". Tip distance on a 20" is same as wand or a 32" and therefore just as effective. When your total on contact time is more with a 20" your donut area cleaned is of course smaller compared to a 32" and if sitting there or moving slow you of course got more time on contact then the wand. Since you did not make effort to move it the cleaning is more/better than a wand and the area larger. On a 32" the time it takes the extra 6" of bar to cover its half circle is about nothing and of no meaningful effect to rpm... many often site or compute such exagerated effect with being able to outwalk a surfacer when the loss is pretty much unimportant.

Could ask why would one want to think about outwalking as walking and swinging is not much fun. Slow down and let the backthrust do the work for you..

*Fact is the amount of rpm increase needed on a 32" to match same as a 20" is absolutely NOTHING, But the energy increase to keep it same rpm is very marginal as discussed earlier*...Maybe reread that a couple time if you miss the point of this post. :)

Experience I have with walking different type floor machineries with many different fixed rpms as well as adjustments on my 32" (5gpm) surfacer tells me you can not outwalk a few hundred rpm anymore than you can a couple thousand rpm. The idea that you can comes from picturing a real slow turning assembly where you jerk it forward before the tips could come and swath over area a certain amount of times..aka zebra stripes..In reality 500rpm is about enough to prevent..

When you use a 20" it usually is overkill/more time on spot than needed in terms of outwalking whether adjusted fast (2k) or slow(500). If rpm is down in the hundreds via tip angle adjust the cleaning can be actually better due to the tip angle itself but no better due to rpm increase. It cleans no more amount of space as it still only a 20" and any lack of rpm gives back no energy in way of cleaning units but rather only more time on spot during a single revolution. It all balances out as it won't do as many cycles around.

Make a 12' surfacer with two 6' bars and two tips and yea maybe the backthrust will be too weak to turn the bar assembly to do but a snails pace to avoid striping but look at it this way..on a 24x12 pad you only need to expend enough man energy to move it 12 feet one direction. If its rotation were gear driven same revolutions you give no energy back to the actual arc being cleaned as none was being sapped in first place. Only thing that was happening was a dilution of cleaning due to the long path/arc/swath going way around. If it too slow for ya go ahead and stick a sprocket on the pipe shaft coming off the rotating union and run a gear reduced gas motor to it. The same tip cleaning effectiveness/cleaning units/etc. will hit each individual spot through the donut arc with same power as a wand, 20", 32" 36", etc..

Why it not done?..maybe cause our unions can't handle the assembly weight, they too big for easy use and transport, cost too much...

End of story...

I hope anyways, I hope this goes some distance to opening peoples minds of what is possable...nyt now it late..lol :)

Kevin--Have you thought about Motorized bars to go with the surface machine?? Another words a Surface machine with a motor. Think of this. A typical Surface machine has the tips turned slightly so the bars spin AWAY from the surface being cleaned. This works good because all you need is pressure from the pressure washer to spin these bars. You have to go back and forth a few times to clean the surface at hand. If you add a motorized surface machine to the mix you now have the bars spin towards the surface being cleaned which now gives you more cleaning power to go with the PSI and more importantly the GPM. Now you have to weigh this thought---is it worth the extra expense for a surface machine like this which will cost you at least $3000 and up to be able to clean...Faster?? Time=money so is it worth it. I have a few thoughts about that....but what do you think??

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Yes John the motorized idea is already mentioned above and I don't think it will take very much motor at all. As to the angle cleaning effectiveness...I think only to a point will tips clean better the straighter up and down they are. Too verticle and ya loose scraping effect (like when getting gum or using puddy knife) .Some bar situation perhaps may even flex to point of hitting top deck.

I can't say I support your idea of spin AWAY versus TOWARDS...

I'll try to do thesis and explain in my uneducated layman way....lol.

Given same angle and power, a wand or bar moving either direction has never shown me to exhibit faster/better or worse cleaning. Once the angle is set to where it is getting underneith various types of grime the surface gets just as clean no matter direction. The process is better viewed as a PASS OVER that accumulates time on contact as the revs add up. Also applies in case of a wand. As you move it either direction at same speed, same angle, and same distance the cleaning is just as good with wand. I mention speed only due to my normal use of 'time on contact' terminology.

Going back to my prior post it can be seen that I meant to convey the speed of a surfacers bar does not clean. I say such for a few reasons to do with energy direction, mass, kinetics, etc...

Let's stray a moment, for my layman reasons, to example of cleaning something with a broom, The mechanical abrasion that does the cleaning does not do its deed until actual contact and the power in that contact will differ at the very second of impact from what you put into it...if your impacting bristles into the surface that is. Angles usually change with a broom also and so it is almost a poor example but I mention it as the speed in such case can store energy into the bristles to be released and transfered to the surface. The main mass happens to be connected to direct force by way of arms. etc. The PASS OVER of a broom is just as effective either direction if all is same during contact and there is indeed contact. No place here for glancing blow theory..

With a washer the above talk of speed, mass, do not apply and more kinetics involved.. With a spray of water out a tip we have a constant spray force. The force is always there right at the surface and the blast impact is decided by the machine. The mass is also on its own and free flowing per particle with a prescribed kinetic energy compared to the broom with no increase of kinetic energy by our leaning or pushing on it, or changing it's speed...It's just there or it isn't. We can't change whats free and in the air and already moving so to speak.. This treads on the old jumping into the air during an elevator crash idea.. (elevator moving and but so are you..haha)

To make use of my broom talk, the spinning of a surfacer imparts no energy or stores no energy into bristles of a spray of water to be released later due to the nature of water being fluid.

When realizing the medium being used with a washer (water) has perticular grit/softness and mass that is relatively small we quikly see that it takes a decent amount of power transfered into it to make it useful. The amount of water in the air between tip and surface is a fairly small amount of mass as a whole at any given time and broken up at that through atomization. Try throwing a splash of water by hand on a slab at high velocity enough to try and matter and we fail. Only throwing a larger mass will increase the cleaning by way of mass holding/keeping the kinetic energy. We just can't throw it fast enough to create abrasion. So a washer imparts a huge amount of initial speed (from psi) into the equation to get the force up.

On the Passover idea we may see that the move or passover of a wand or a surface cleaners tips are not increasing mechanical abrasion nor kinetic mass cleaning ability as tip is no closer to surface. Power is always built in and always available to the surface if all in way of angle, distance, and power(made by the machine) is the same. We've all pulled trigger and had a wand fly away and nothing got cleaned but that is due to time on contact being short and mainly the fact the the tip distance to surface increased and energies disipated. Such is not case in a surface cleaner. The hampering of cleaning effectiveness of a surface cleaner by way of increasing rpm (spinning) only really comes by way of fact that angle of tip changed from optimal. In fact the terms flying away or towards aren't applicable at all as the angle dictated is fixed and moving along a right angle axis. (PASS OVER) There is no measurable fly away persay as any movement of bar puts the spray on a different spot and it's distance from surface remains same. When it comes around again it will hit with same exact force. Once again we left at Clean = time on contact whether it by single pass or many accumulated.

If say 2k worth of rpm were actually somehow contributed/added to the speed of the spray flow onto one single spot then we could maybe have something to consider... but don't worry as such is not possable here as spinning is a sideways movement of the tips compared to surface. Energy/speed increases or decreases via AWAY or TOWARDS needs to be same direction as what is to be increased. Is a spacial thing. What the speed the rpm calculates into I do not know and it don't matter for this thesis..:). Flying straight into the ground off a rocketship with wand in hand to increase the speed of the water could work..for a split second that is..haha.

Turning tips total horizontal on same plane should be able demonstrate such example of increasing or decreasing speed of the water compared to our stable earth enviro but the power developed obviously is into thin air within said plane and unusable for what we want.

Ok so I rambled enough tonight,, do forgive, and do forgive any mistakes or use of word.. its late and physics aint my game really..

[John T 744]

Kevin--You are just to damn smart for me. From what I was told a spinning bar that spins into the direction of the cleaning will increase the Cleaning speed of the surface machine being used. This is for the larger surface machines. The 20 Inch machines IMHO do not need to be considered to have motorized bars. With that being said a range of 3000 psi is a good target number to have to effectively clean Commercial flatwork. Now if you increase your GPM's from around 4 to 8gpm that alone adds a tremendous amount of cleaning power. To have the bars spin into whats being cleaned makes it even faster....

[MMI Enterprises 289]

To do that John the angle would have to be so steep that the distance from the tip to the ground is increased and you loose the actual power to disipation.It is going to be a hard press to prove to me that the water moving into the grime is much, if any, faster and makes for better/faster cleaning with the word 'better' being key. Whatever water speed increase that may happen are going to have to be halfed or calculated out in respect to the energy of the spin being at a right(er) angle....Here another example for ya, Does a puddy knife scraping of a slab result in a cleaner surface if you scrape it faster rather than slower?..no not really. If same angle were used and force adjusted down to allow for the increased kinetics (coming from it being one mass and attached to a variable force such as yer hand) were produced and used the same amount of clean happens. If you jamm it in there ya got energy increases and shock effect.. Such don't happen with water as it is constant speed and flow made by the machine and not really attached to your hand or a spinner bar or imovable object. The energy of a bar spin does not impart the energy in same direction as the tip is spraying for one and every microsecond it sprays is another postion of contact..

Is only way I can explain it...

Don't get me wrong, I would love to be proven wrong here and would love to see what yer hearing put in action. Way I see it the only advantage to a faster spin is the ability to walk without striping on real big machines where the backthrust of the water itself can't keep up. Just to be clear 5gpm is not limited to 32" that fer sure.. All being equal a 8gpm will always clean faster no matter..

Anyways, over and out fer now.. :)

[Tmrrptr 164]

sfla,

Sounds to me like all you need is some kind of wheels, instead of the casters, to keep the spinning mechanism up off the paver surface... you got plenty of pump.

Maybe get either some go-kart wheels with a stout bolt for axle or maybe wheel barrow wheels... Pick the surface machine of your choice and take it to a welder and have him weld some forks on there in tricycle fashion so it's at a suitable level and go to town.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Btw John, The wheel versus hover discussion of this thread has a role in being able to show us proofs either way in our side discussion of spin inducing something more. On hover type surfacers we can ask do they ride lower to the ground if you were to lock down the spin? Increased spin by way of a 3rd party motor and tip angle being same would have to show an increase in ride height. Could lock a bar down with a screw driver through a hole in deck to check out. A clutch or flipper system similar to when we used to put playing cards on our bike rims could be utilized to show the differences if present also. Such invention would be considered as a height slash power adjuster if so.. Hey I just invented something...lol.. not really, as I don't think its sound.

[FCPWLLC 233]

Have you checked out All Pressure Washers prices?

They are the cheapest I have seen on the net. They are part of the Manufacturerer of the stuff, Pressure Pro out of Fort Pierce. The factory owns them so they have the best prices around for everything. They sell cheaper than anyone I hear.

Check it out.

joe

Nice first post.... Please fill out signature. You could get mistaken for SPAM.:lgwave:

[sflasealcoatinginc 14]

Hey,

The prob isnt getting surface cleaner up off the pavers.... the queston is about actually NOT having wheels for fear they will leave scuff marks on bumpy pavers....

sfla,

Sounds to me like all you need is some kind of wheels, instead of the casters, to keep the spinning mechanism up off the paver surface... you got plenty of pump.

Maybe get either some go-kart wheels with a stout bolt for axle or maybe wheel barrow wheels... Pick the surface machine of your choice and take it to a welder and have him weld some forks on there in tricycle fashion so it's at a suitable level and go to town.