Production Times Comparison

[Tonyg 14]

I have been re-evaluating my fee schedule and wanted it to reflect my actual/average production times and costs. I want my pricing to better reflect actual labor and be able to distinguish material costs and depreciation better. I don’t mind sharing my pricing or what this deck priced out at but I am more interested in comparing how my labor compares to others.

This deck is a very nondescript, very average deck with an unknown stain, unknown age, and unknown history. The house is 12 years old and I am not sure when the deck was added. I was there to do an interior painting estimate and gave them an estimate on exterior painting and deck restoration while there hoping for the upsell. Finished the interior and deck last week and have the exterior scheduled for October.

I used this deck as a sample because it would be a good sample to test my production times. If you want to play along could you give how many direct MH (excluding transportation) you would have in these areas:

1 - Strip

2 – Prep

3 - Stain

Sample Deck

12x16 Pressure Treated Pine

Standard 4 steps 3’ wide

36’ Total Rails

Sample After.pdf

Sample After Prep.pdf

Sample Before.pdf

Sample before - After.pdf

Edited June 23, 2012 by Tonyg

[Tonyg 14]

My Deckster is down so I ended up using the Xjet for chem application and an airless for stain application. I check and counter sink every nail, use a square buff to sand floor and 5 1/4 in orbital for the rest. Used AC Cedar Semi for finish. I'm curious how I compare to what you would have on this deck.

Here is what it took me:

1 - Strip: 3hr 10min

- 30min set up

- 45min Caustics application & Dwell

- 75min Strip/PW

- 20min Acid

- 20min Pack up

2 Prep 2hr

- 15min set nails, tighten boards, etc.

- 1hr 45min sand

3 Stain 2hrs 30min

- 30min cover, tape and protect

- 2hr 10min Stain

Total Production Time 7hrs 40min

[bigchaz 157]

I'll play along....I don't really measure my time that specifically but here is with 3 man crew. Usually me on the phone and 2 guys working so however you want to calculate that. I guess man hours is double or triple depending if I'm actually doing something

I apply chems with a roof pump mounted on trailer so we roll up and no setup

1) Clean ~ 1.5 hours:

Pull up, 1 guy hooks up water and mixes stripper, 1 guy move furinutre: 10 minutes

Apply chems/soak: 20 minute

Wash: 45 minutes (one guy is getting acid ready now)

Apply acid/Rinse off/clean sprayer: 15 minutes

Set nails/sand floor/rails/tighten loose boards: ~1.5 hours (worst part of that is unloading the dang floor buffer weighs like 100 pounds)

Hand stain two coats: ~2 hours

Total time ~5 hours

Deck Price: ~$884.00

You probably already know this but looking at your time it seems like the washing side of things is taking you a while. I assume you are having to load and unload out of truck or van? If you get a rig hookup with hosereels it cuts down so much time. Everything stays in one spot you just pull and roll hoses. Also upgraded to 5.5gpm machines and the wash time went way down too.

However if I worked solo I imagine my time would be more like yours. I would spray if it was just me but now with a crew we just hand do almost everything now, no plastic or cleanup to worry about. 2 hours seems like a long time to spray that size deck.

Edited June 23, 2012 by bigchaz

[Tonyg 14]

Thanks Charlie,

Is that 5 man hours or 10 man hours?

I did have some extenuating circumstances with sustained wind at 15-20mph which is fine as I would rather use these times rather than basing my pricing on an ideal day.

I'm using the 5.6gpm trailer mounted and plan on setting up an additional mounted pump for chems like you mentioned. right now the trailer is enclosed multipurpose as painting is still my primary revenue. I had hopes to spinning off seasonal deck resto biz next year and am looking to you guys to bring production numbers and processes to where it is profitable. Thus why I am crunching the numbers a little more now.

This deck priced in at $801.31 for me.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

When I came up with my formulas for calculating production, I took the time to actually time myself doing each part.

ie:rails, floor, steps, lattice, etc. because each has its inherent characteristics which either add to the difficulty or make it easier.

We all know floors are the easiest, steps next.

Rails take longer due to angles of access and levels (ground level vs 2nd/3rd story access).

Lattice and arbors/pergolas have a degree of difficulty specific to themselves and are hard to calculate due to design variations and access situations.

I have averaged it out to about 150sqft/hour to wash and as little as 75sqft/hour when stripping most coatings that come off with up to 3 applications of stripper.

Sanding is one that some may find hard because different woods sand at different rates due to previously existing conditions.

ie; linseed oil pt pine that has aged enough becomes very slow to sand and worse if it is cupped.

Cedar and redwood aren't that bad and tend to be the fastest unless you did not get the resins superficially removed with the wash/strip.

Then the paper clogs up worse and if you use too rough a grit, the sander won't hold the paper and it stays in place while your sander meanders off it.

buff sanding with large orbital sander=125-150sqft/hour.

drum sanding 50-75sqft/hour

Nail counter sinking with empty nail gun helps tremendously but is hard to calculate due to inconsistency in overall need. ie;not all nails have popped.

Screws; well there is another variable that sucks because of spun out heads and breaking shafts.

Prep time for sealing should be about 1/4 of the time spent sealing.

Sealing in optimum conditions with little or no breeze 150-175sqft/hour with a sprayer and back brushing/padding as you go.

For myself, sealing a rail section avg 4' span took about 5 minutes. multiply that by the number and you can get an idea.

Problem is ... that is me on a production basis and motivated. Crews don't do it that fast. 7-8 minutes for them.

Clean up if all is prepped well should be about 20-30 minutes depending upon having to completely clean the sprayer in prep for another job with different color or end of day.

Folding tarps takes the longest by oneself.

My calculations for that job with a 2 man crew would have been about 8 man hours total.

(strip/nail-prep/sand-buff rails and spindles, buff sand floor and caps/prep/seal)

I don't list prices on the net but if you care, you can call me.

Rod!~

[tonyshelton 112]

I an a fanatic about timing things. That knowledge has saved my tail on many bids.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[AAPaint 14]

I don't care to publish pricing online either, but I can tell you about 75-125 sq. ft. per hour stripping depending on finish. 150-200 sq. ft. max per hour staining is about average for us. Rails we average about 1 foot per 1.5 minutes or so. Sanding is variable, but with orbitals and belt sanders we run about 100-125 sq. ft. per hour.

Looking at the size of the job, and your posted speeds, we would be pretty much in the same boat.

My question is, when you say "man hours", you do mean ONE HOUR PER MAN on the job, right? The reason I ask is, if you have two people on the job for 8 hours, you actually have 16 billable man hours. I hope this is what everyone means, right?

[bigchaz 157]

I had hopes to spinning off seasonal deck resto biz next year and am looking to you guys to bring production numbers and processes to where it is profitable. Thus why I am crunching the numbers a little more now.

Do it man! We need more full time woodies, forget the painting ;)

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Man hours is a total. The number of persons on the job is included in that figure so you can assume that with 2 people on a job that takes 8 man hours, it is approx 4/person.

That's the way I define it.

Rod!~

[Tonyg 14]

Thanks for the great feedback. I really don't care what your pricing is although it is interesting. Starting business you need to know what the market is but staying in business means you need to know what your costs are. The reason I am honing my numbers is because the painting side has been timed and broken down in detail but I need much more accuracy in my labor costs for wood restoration. I kinda stoked that my times were in the ball park as working alone it is hard to have decent benchmarks.

[quote name=

Nail counter sinking with empty nail gun helps tremendously

Rod!~[/quote]

Rod that's ingenious! I use a 5lb maul and a drift pin/hole punch (3/8"x8"x3/4" GEARWRENCH BlackOxide Alloy Steel Starter Punch | Fastenal) and I've wondered how I was going to expect an employee to crawl across a large deck swinging the maul without the image of the chain gang (

). What kind of nail gun do you use? I have Paslodes but I believe they have a flat shank.

Do it man! We need more full time woodies, forget the painting ;)

Sorry Charlie, I make too much and stay too busy with the painting. I would love to be able to set up and train a couple of employees to run full time as a separate company exclusive to wood similar to what you, James, and Rick does. Shooting for a seasonal biz now with the painting biz continuing with the house washing and commercial pw. I would love to be doing more wood resto but I just don't get the time.

Edited June 24, 2012 by Tonyg

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I don't care to publish pricing online either, but I can tell you about 75-125 sq. ft. per hour stripping depending on finish. 150-200 sq. ft. max per hour staining is about average for us. Rails we average about 1 foot per 1.5 minutes or so. Sanding is variable, but with orbitals and belt sanders we run about 100-125 sq. ft. per hour.

Looking at the size of the job, and your posted speeds, we would be pretty much in the same boat.

My question is, when you say "man hours", you do mean ONE HOUR PER MAN on the job, right? The reason I ask is, if you have two people on the job for 8 hours, you actually have 16 billable man hours. I hope this is what everyone means, right?

For our uses, it is an hour per man on the job, so if there are two men, and ten hours, it's five hours per guy.

Beth

[AAPaint 14]

For our uses, it is an hour per man on the job, so if there are two men, and ten hours, it's five hours per guy.

Beth

Thanks Beth, and Rod for the previous reply. We are on the same page. 8 man hours with two men should be four hours per man. That's what I was getting at. I think it was the wording above that confused me.