EFC-38 vs. HD 80

[John T 744]

I have a deck to do in the near future that has about 4 old coats of Benjamin Moore Clear(Actually has a tint of Cedar color to it) that needs to be stripped off.

Can EFC-38 work for this or should I go with HD-80??

Also If I go with EFC-38 does it need to be Neutralized/Brightend afterwords like HD-80 needs to be??

Thanks

[ron p 500]

if i were you, i would buy both.

i got caught with my pant's down because i thought the efc would do the job and it did'nt. my bad, i should have tested before going to the job to do the work.

[ron p 500]

brighting. Even though the ecf wont change the PH of the wood as much a a SH based stripper, the tannin in the wood can make it look dark.

brightner is cheap and fast. use it.

[John T 744]

Since EFC and HD-80 are identical in price wouldn't I be better off in just using HD-80 since I know it works just about everytime??

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

If the stuff is three years or younger, use the HD-80 is my feeling. Also did a pro apply it or did a homeowner slop product on on top of dirt year after year??? See my point? Sometimes those are the worst ones.

Beth

[Aplus 525]

John,

Thats the way I'd do it. I generally use HD80 for removing all sealers, Thompsons, etc, mixed at a lower rate, like 2 cups per five gallons.

I prefer to use the percarb cleaners on new wood and wood that has never been sealed.

As Beth mentioned, homeowner applied clear sealers can sometimes be more challenging than you might think.

HD80 works for sure, every time, and it's fast.

[Paul B. 523]

Being in agreement with Beth & Tony, I would like to add as a general statement the following:

Testing a small area first is the best method to find out what strength stripper should be used on each job that will give you the balance of speed and desired results.

Some of the pros like to use a mix that is the least distressing to the wood and minimize opportunities for furring, which in effect minimizes the need to de-furr / sand. The size of the job will also help to determine if testing is a worthwhile effort.

[ron p 500]

hd80 was not designed to kill mold, efc was.

I can take a bath in efc but not hd80

I can wash a house with efc, not hd80.

I can spray efc with my x-jet. Not hd80 [unless you feel lucky]

I dont worrie about plant life when i use efc.

Why use a sledge hammer to hang a picture hook?

I know dulition is the solution but it's still not made to kill mold.

to each his own.

[reed 500]

EFC 38 was originally designed as a stripper for the cheap TWP Stuff. It is predominantly a cleaner. HD80 is a stripper, so what do you want to do, clean or strip.

[Paul B. 523]

Ron, Folks,

Please help me out a bit and please don't take the following as being argumentative (even if it may sound like it from your perspective). Me, myself and I (and maybe others) are somewhat puzzled. Here is what I think I know, so you will see my dilemma.

EFC-38 will not remove all stains - as I understand, it was designed as a heavy duty cleaner that has the ability to remove some to a fair number of failing stains.

HD-80 was specifically designed for heavy duty stripping applications.

(I've read the MSDS and tub info on both).

Personally I wouldn't take a bath in either, but DILUTED ENOUGH you can swim in it, or drink it (I'm sure we all drink things that are a lot worse that our water department neglects to tell us). Remember how everyone fears sodium hypochlorite? Our drinking waters are chlorinated and so are our pools (dilution in effect).

Heck, I remember folks using straight 3-1/4% content Clorox to wash skin effected by poison ivy and poison oak.

Most hand soaps and at least some hair shampoos contain sodium hydroxide (lye). Even Clorox contains sodium hydroxide (less than 1% - closer to 1/4%).

I'm curious in the comment about HD-80 not being effective on mold and mildew removal. Are we saying that if you use HD-80 to strip a mold and mildew effected deck, then you need to use EFC-38 before brightening / neutralizing?

In the same respect to HD-80, my understanding is it contains a high percentage of sodium hydroxide (10% range). A large number of the roof cleaning solutions offered on the market are sodium hydroxide based chemicals (in similar range) used specifically in mold and mildew removal from asphalt type roof shingles.

I hope you can see my dilemma and hope we can discuss it to clear up MY dilemma.

[ron p 500]

i will let a more qualified person ans these question's.

I will say this

sodium hydroxide is the main chem in easy-off oven cleaner.

It is made with this because it eat's oil.

Your roof shingles are made of oil and rock.

If the rock is covering the oil, then no problems.

If the rock's are worn off, then problems.

Cleaning mold off rock's is diffent then cleaning mold off wood.

So mean popa, if you were the mfg. of hd80 and knew that most other sod. hyd. based roof cleaners were sold in liquid form. Why would'nt you be marketing your "cheaper to ship powder" as a roof cleaner?

Why would one dist. advocate the use of a x-jet to apply a sod. hyd. cleaner and another dist say "

not to use the the x

-jet"?

Why dont hood cleaners use HD80?

wHY IS'NT HD80 marketed as a roof cleaner?

EASY RUSS feel's it's unsafe to use hd80 this way.

Other's dont.

If i wanted to kill mold and had percarb bleach and oven cleaner in my cabnet, i would use the percarb. that was all i was saying.

[Paul B. 523]

I understand your thought process and agree with most of what you said about different products being mixed differently to address different cleaning needs.

Without much fan-fare, I would like to add that I have some background education in chemistry and that I have been exposed to some of the worlds best research labs at P&G, Dupont & Allied (other than walking by them) thru the past 30 years and hopefully some things have rubbed off even inadvertantly. Which leads me to say that I don't agree with the use of Sodium Hydroxide or Potassium Hydroxide or Sodium Metasilicate necessarily for cleaning asphalt roofs. The oils in the asphalt and the bonding between the asphalt and the "rocks" breaks down with these chemicals much faster than with sodium hypochlorite (I'll vouch for that first hand, as I've watched the color of the wash going down the gutters turn from pretty blue/green/yellow colors to oily brown - not moldy black).

My main question or dilemma still remains to be unaddressed.

"I'm curious in the comment about HD-80 not being effective on mold and mildew removal. Are we saying that if you use HD-80 to strip a mold and mildew effected deck, then you need to use EFC-38 before brightening / neutralizing?"

Then the question becomes should one clean a surface with EFC-38 first before stripping with HD-80 to remove the mold and mildew? Or after using HD-80? Or is bleach/Clorox/pool shock even more effective than EFC-38 on mold & mildew and in severe cases acceptable to use to remove it in lieu of the threat of wood damage?

Still trying not to be antagonistic or argumentative but:

I would just like to know the approach others take as there is a lot of general conversations on products and uses in short bursts of messages, but not detail enough to satisfy me needs. I don't have a problem with going out and experimenting as I do anyway but why not share all the info if it's available.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Okey dokey.....I'll throw in my two cents worth here. It won't get you a cup of coffee, but hey, it's mindshare nonetheless.

First off, ANY sodium hydroxide based stripper type product should never be used on asphalt shingles. It can cause damage. How? Why? Well, one of the things SH does is eat away at petroleum based products. Those of you who use HD-80 to clean concrete already know that. It's the heaviest duty degreaser out there. There are petroleum based products in asphat shingles. Mixing and applying something too strong or not rinsing well is just begging for trouble.

I know a power washer who did an experiment. He took an asphalt shingle, and placed it in a container of sodium hydroxide. He was talking to some employees. He turned to pull the shingle out, and IT HAD COMPLETELY DISSOLVED. Gone. Poof. Melted.

Now then.... HD-80 will work effectively on mold, mildew and algae. EFC-38 is better for it. So if you are stripping a deck that is say.... covered in Behr, but also really covered with mold mildew and/or algae, then the HD-80 will do the trick. Follow with a brightener behind it.

For EFC-38, it depends on the deck, wood spiecies and exposure as to if you'll want to brighten. If mildew laden, brightening probably makes good sense. For cedar, brightening makes good sense. For PT lumber that is just gray, you may not need to, you'll know when you rinse. If the wood looks too dark, brighten.

With regard to applying chemicals, EFC-38 is one thing to apply via x-jet. But you'll never hear us or Extreme Solutions say that it's safe to apply SH or any acid this way. It may be working for you, but accidents do happen. These are strong chemicals. Proper surface prep and care should be taken to protect the operator, the property, and anyone who happens across your path as you work unannounced.

Spray can carry. The less airborn the chemicals are, the better your chances of avoiding any unforseen circumstances. Wind is invisible. It's your worst enemy when you work with chemicals and sealers. Your method of application is your only safeguard against it.

Time is money, but carelessness cost you even more. I don't mean to sound harsh, but how many of you remember the post of Delco's old BBS a little over a year ago? A man DIED from exposure to sodium hydroxide. He was applying it in this same method and being rained on. He died!

Testing what you need to use is a great thing. Use what you need. You don't always need a sledgehammer to crack a walnut. A hammer will work.

Be safe all...... :)

Beth:cool:

[Paul B. 523]

Beth,

Thank you, it was more than 2 cents worth to me!

It addressed all MY questions and confirmed all my assumptions and experiences.

You and I are in 99% agreement. I would not advocate the application of acids and or sodium hydroxide with the X-Jet but it could be acceptable under some very strict and specific uses as far as I'm concerned and that is based on my experience strictly with our set-up (along the lines of using guns, bazookas and cross-bows in their proper applications.) As you said, the consideration and practice of safety should always come first in lieu of speed and profits.

The reason I was pressing on the Sodium Hydroxide issue was not the cleaning of asphalt but it's effectiveness on mold and mildew removal. Over the past several days I have seen several people on different boards talk about the need to do a 3 or even 4 step operation to strip with a Sodium Hydroxide based solution (including HD-80). I have limited exposure to HD-80 but have applied it where mold and mildew was present, with great success. I have also used other sodium hydroxide based solutions on mold and mildew effected wood with success and was wondering about the difference in experiences.

If I believed that one stripper worked well by dilution only on all applications, you better believe I wouldn't carry 6 different ones.

Same along the lines of the X-Jet. I am willing to jump out there and say that the proper tools, chemical selection and applications are what separates the pros from the rest (getting paid alone does not necessarily by itself qualify a person as being a pro).

Thanks!

Differences of opinions are expected as are frank discussions. I was trying to get all the cards on the table. I really hope I haven't offended anyone. If I have, please accept my deepest and sencerest apology.

Good day!

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Yo! Mean Papa...

No offense taken at all. ;)

Hey, if you recall the BBS and thread, I would appreciate knowing where I need to surf to so I can chime in on the HD-80 fray regarding mold, mildew and algae... It will kill them and also help to retard regrowth. If it's not doing it for someone, I need to talk to them.

Beth:cool:

[Paul B. 523]

I believe the last comment was on Greg's board, but I couldn't swear as things have been very dynamic for the past week for me. If it's not there, I'll see if I can find it in the next couple of days - I need to concentrate on a few things here until we get things back on track (normal stuff, it just gets stacked up sometimes - kind of like landing at Kennedy or LaGuardia.)

[Paul B. 523]

I found one quickly in my mailbox however it does not mention HD-80 specifically, but rather refers to the top 2 quaility Sodium Hydroxide based strippers. I know HD-80 is considered #1 so...

Anyway, here is the link: http://www.deckcare.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=957&perpage=15&pagenumber=2

I know there are others but I did not see them in my mailbox as I erase a lot every day to keep things to minimum.

[reed 500]

Beth,

Very well explained,

Also, got with the daughter and bid her deck today.

thanks again,

reed

I like having the hd80 delivered to my door too!

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Cool! Good luck, and I want to see a picture! Oh yeah....coat that baby with Wood Tux!

Beth:cool:

[Aplus 525]

Here is a gazebo I stripped and washed Saturday. It had two coats of the old Penofin Cedar Marine.

This one was a perfect candidate for stripper application with my xjet. It was the first time I ever used my xjet to apply stripper. It sure goes on fast.

Check it out.....

[Aplus 525]

Another view..

[Aplus 525]

I'm using an extenda wand....I love it. I'm going to eventually replace all my other crappy twist cam type adjustable poles with extenda wands.

You can see my cart sprayer on the side. I was going to use it to apply the chems, but it then occured to me how big the gazebo was.

Does anyone remember the old TV show called Home Improvement? "I don't think so, Tim"

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Hey Tony,

Which stripper did you apply via x-jet and what strength? Did you apply it for the roof of the gazebo? Or just the upper vertical areas?

Job looks great!

Beth

[Jon 533]

Blues Meister you cannot offend people, that is my job!

I doubt anyone took your questions or point of views as arguementive either but what they were, asking for an honest answer to clarify two different chemicals.

I have used HD80 on concrete and as I said in a post a ways back it sure does do the job, have not yet tried the EFC38 but will as soon as I get another job where all you see is black on top of he concrete.

Happens when the guys emptying the grease traps spell their loads and for whatever reasons seem to feel it is ok, it is not, cars drive over that stuff and take it all over the place.

I feel there should be some law that says if they spell their load they must call in a pressure washer with reclaim or even HazMat.

I am not talking about a pint but gallons and gallons of cooking grease and who knows what else.

Jon

[Paul B. 523]

Jon,

I stand corrected and behind you.

Is this an age before beauty thing?

Or are you deserving of a "Mean California Daddy-O" tag?