True Gutter Cleaner ?

May 24, 2003

Anyone know from experience.. what really takes off dirt and

BLACK STREAKS FROM GUTTERS, I wont say exactly what I am using,

I will abbreviate Gutter Sh..... and it doesnt work at all..?

and that is with scrubbing with a brush ?

I just need a good chemical company that has house and gutter cleaners

that work...? I dont care if they are pricey, I am sick of telling the homeowner

I am sorry but I just cant get them clean...

THX

the_GUNN_man · May 24, 2003

I use Gutter Zap mixed 50/50 with water and add a smedge of HD-80. I have to brush a tad. I spray the solution on the brush and then wipe it down the gutter. I wait 1 minute and do some light scrubbing and it comes right off.

Paul B. · May 24, 2003

We've used All-Brite, Gutter Zap and Gutter Shock.

All of these products have performed excellent, sprayed on 1:1 or even 1:2 dilution. Extremely heavy stains may need a concentrated spraying (with lots of care and some spot testing for dwell time - meaning test the product and know its capabilities before using on a customer's home).

Brushing is not as effective as spraying (in my opinion) as you tend to remove/move the chemical from place to place and also it creates streaks easier, dries faster.

In my experience, Sodium Hydroxide/Sodium Metasilicate combination based products tend to work better than products not containing Sodium Hydroxide. (Sodium Hydroxide content usually about 1% or less.) Sodium Hydroxide will strip paint, that is why I mentioned testing each product, concentrations and dwell times (it will also kill plant life, so pre-wet and rinse areas below gutters).

What concentration/dilution were you using?

What type of brush?

How long was the dwell time?

Attached photo shows a gutter section that had Gutter Shock sprayed on at concentrated level with 10 second dwell and rinsed with a garden hose. Same results were obtained with Gutter Zap. All-Brite produced same results but with a bit longer dwell time.

May 24, 2003

I got the same results as your photo, but the black streaks would not

come off completely, still there although faded, but not removed entirley,

I used gutter shock 50-50 with a brush, and dwell time of about 5 minutes,

maybe I should try hot water ?

THX

Paul B. · May 24, 2003

As I said, spraying works better than brushing for us - try that first. It's similar to painting: The more you brush, the more that the chemical is removed from the area so that increasing your dwell time does not tend to help in most cases and ends up with streaking and shadows. With brushing, you may have to apply 2 or even 3 times to remove the black streaks.

I also hope that you are using a soft car type brush.

Decrease your dilution 2 parts chemical to 1 part water or even full strength.

Try a gallon of Gutter Zap and compare the results yourself.

start with a weak 1:2 dilution working toward full strength (both brushing and spraying). I dare say that you should need no mare than 1-2 minutes of dwell time.

Good Luck!

May 24, 2003

Unbelievable, I bought a gallon of it today at home depot,

sprayed on, scrubbed with brush, dwelled 5 minutes streaks

came right off, I only did a small section, I will try your idea Paul

this tuesday when I return to the site, we are also staining a

1000 sq ft deck there as well, I will try just spraying, with an Xjet

and see what type of results with no scrubbing..

I guess you stain wood the same way ? more spraying, less brushing ?

if so what type of sprayers do you guys use, ? I am considering

either a deckster or an airless, any comments ?

THX

John Orr · May 24, 2003

rfitz,

I have been telling folks about KK for some time. Actually, it is much easier to skip the spraying and apply with the brush. Use a very soft brush and one or two passes will give you the same results. Rinse right away - no dwell needed.

John

May 24, 2003

Hi John,

That stuff works awesome, I bought it after seeing all your post's about it,

I figured what the heck, I can always return it, but WOW, you were

right on...

How about some other tidbits on house cleaning/washing..?

Deck washing etc.. ?

THX

Paul B. · May 25, 2003

I can't comment on the Deckster in actual use, but I've heard folks say that the airless provides better control for spraying stains. Again this is not my opinion but comments from other pros. I would say that the Deckster is a low pressure unit (25-225psi) and high flow rate capacity (.1 gpm to 1.5 gpm) whereas the others have a higher pressure capability from 0-2500 plus psi.

There are some very good airless systems out there for the full time user. Two good candidates I would recommend are the Graco 190ES and the Titan 440i (both electric and complete systems). Both are very portable and cover a wide range of applications. I prefer the Titan 440i over the 190 ES for the flow rate and max tip size in addition to dependability.

Titan 440i: 3000psi, .47 gpm, 3/4 hp, .021 max. tip

Graco 190ES: .38gpm, 7/8 hp, .019 max. tip

Then you also have the gas powered units like the Graco 3900

In comparison, I would also think that accessories (from tips to extension poles to hoses) and spare parts are more abundant and accessible for the Graco and Titan than the Deckster. But of course there is the price difference:

Deckster is in the $500-$600 range, the 190ES is in the $575-$600 and the Titan 440i in the $900-$950.

Paul B. · May 26, 2003

Krud Kutter Original is a good product.

Rob,

I can't understand why you couldn't get the other products to work for you. I did some side-by-side testing on several surfaces and Krud Kutter Original came in third (although in a couple of instances by only a very thin margin) - my opinion along with a second set of eyes. The test involved 4 products.

The tests were (as I said) literally side-by-side, with 1:2 dilution, 1:1 dilution and concentrated. My tests were with and without using a brush. In the brushing tests no dwell time was allowed. In the brushless tests, dwell was timed with a stop watch at 15 second intervals, up to 2 minutes.

All 4 of the products we tested produced acceptable results to varying degrees in removing black streaks from gutters along with removing mold and mildew.

May 26, 2003

Hi Paul,

I still have half the gutters left to clean, I will be doing them tomorrow,

and I will try gutter shock again tomorrow at full strength, I will try

first X-jet it on there, so that will be a 2-1 ratio, then I will try straight

brushing with GS full strength, I might also give HD 80 a test at 1/2 strength

just brushing..?

As far as wood stripping, cleaning, britening prod. go have you ever tested

those or is there just 1 brand you like the best..?

For house cleaning/washing, I am using Espec's Emuls. plus with

10%sodium hypochlorite, I use 12 oz of Espec in a 5 gal pail of water

with 2 gal of the chlorine, it works pretty good, I put on with a 0040 tip

downstream, dwell for 5 min and rinse off.. what is your favorite house washing recipe..?

THX

Paul B. · May 26, 2003

Hi Rob,

I DO NOT recommend testing HD-80 at HALF strength on a customer's gutter, as it is extremely high in Sodium Hydroxide content for cleaning. HD-80 is intended to STRIP finishes at HALF and FULL strenghts or less.

The MSDS for HD-80 shows a 20% by weight Sodium Hydroxide content (but MSDS sheets are only required to show maximum levels not actuals so it could be between 10-20% or even less). Compared to the MSDS for Gutter Shock and Gutter Zap which claim less than 1% Sodium Hydroxide content, and Krud Kutter claims less than 2% Potassium Hydroxide. So you can see that the Sodium Hydroxide level could be 10 to 20 times what is needed to clean. Of course there are other components in all the cleaners and strippers that make one more effective than an other so the combination is also important.

Along with others, there is a great web site for chemical and safety information at www.inChem.org (check out the PIMs)

For house washes, we have used Limonene & All-Brite and have recently tested CitraCleen to give us alternatives. Each product provided us with excellent results. There are negatives with each product as with anything else, so care must be taken where they are used.

For wood stripping, I would say that OUR favorite is HD-80, as it is the most versatile or all-around product. It will strip oil and most acrylic based products. (I must note that there are a couple of other products that I understand are also very good, but we have not worked with those to this point.)

We have also used SafeStrip which is a very safe and mild stripper that works on Wolman F&P, TWP and Thompsons and is extremely gentle on cedar and will minimize furring. EFC-38 is also a very good product for mild stripping needs.

For the toughest jobs, we go to the solvent based products such as Bix Tuff-Job, Dad's, or Wolman A&L (very expensive).

Bix and Dad's work very well on urethane based stains such as some of Cabot products. I understand Back to Nature II is also a good product for removing acrylic based finishes.

the_GUNN_man · May 26, 2003

Do you premix the emulsifier plus in a 55 gallon drum before you put it in with your 5 gallon bucket? The reason I ask is because of the 12 oz in 5 gallon bucket thing you said. Are you mixing 12 oz of powder in a 5 gallon bucket? When you mix the stuff you are supposed to mix the whole bag at one time. If you bought the 55 gallon kit you are supposed to mix the whole thing at one time. The reason behind this is the powder is not throughly mixed and if you just reach in and grab a cup it could be at a different concentrate then the next cup you grab out of it. In a 5 gallon bucket I put about 3.5 gallons of Emulsifier plus and 1.5 gallon of 12.5% sodium hypochlorite. I then x-jet it at 2 to 1. I tried downstreaming but I have found that the sodium hypochlorite gets too diluted when you try and downstream. I guess downstreaming the sodium hypochlorite could work if you had a chem spider and could pull it right out of the bottle.

Aplus · May 27, 2003

I use the emulsifier plus, with very good results. I don't have room in my garage for any more drums, so I mix it on each jobsite, at 2 measuring cups per five gallons of water, and one gallon of 12% clorine. I use my xjet to apply it with a 4gpm machine, so it's applied from the pail at a rate of about 1 part solution to 1.7 parts water. Washers delivering different GPM's will affect the final output from the xjet. I tested varying mix rates until I found what worked for me. I suggest everyone conduct their own testing to determine what works best for them.

While I realize it's probably best to mix it all up at once in a drum, I just can't do it that way, and actually have had quite good results mixing as I said above.

Of course, HD-80 and EFC-38 have several different dry ingrediants mixed together, and you don't have to mix up the whole pail at one time. So I'm not 100% convinced that dry chems need to be mixed up all at once. I think that perhaps someone has speculated that, and now some folks think that is always the case.

Once again, do your own testing and find out what works best in your particular situation. Don't forget that different parts of the country have water of varying hardness, which greatly affects the amount of chems needed to obtain a certain result. You can use recommendations here as a starting point, and adjust up/down as needed.

May 27, 2003

I asked Espec if I could mix as I needed and they said of course,

just divide the proportions up, if 35LBS of dry makes a 55 gal drum

then I think 10 OZ should make up a 5 gal pail ? I use it like that and premix

24 hours ahead of time, I find the Emuls plus needs a while to all disentegrate, otherwise you will still have powder in your bucket,

I got my downstreamer from Delco, and I have a 5.5 GPM machine,

and it drains that bucket of chems in 5 minutes, that should be plenty

to wash with, I also find using a 0040 tip gets farther distance than the Xjet

and I dont have to carry another hose and a bucket of chems with me

to wash a house with, I tried both ways and didnt see any difference

in cleaning results using the xjet, other than using alot more chems than

needed, and the hassle of carrying xtra hoses, buckets etc..

I wash 2 sides then come back rinse, and do other 2 sides, etc..

Although, if I could figure out how to make HD 80, EFC-38 and

my briteners work thru my xjet, I would do so, I could get Decks prepped

alot faster...?

Paul B. · May 27, 2003

Tony, Tony, Tony,

In regards to the mixing of dry chemicals - let me reassure you that it's not a speculation. In some cases it will make a major difference. But you are correct that it does not always apply.

The key here is to know when it does and when it doesn't apply vs. guessing.

There are chemicals that are mixed in liquid form then dehydrated so that 3 chemicals may be in 1 granule of crystal. There are others that have 5 different crystals that are mixed together in equal or different percentages. In some instances you are playing with percentages that may not be critical. Other cases the exact percentages are what makes the mix work properly.

There are a couple of things you can do to see how the percentages work. Get yourself 100 colored marbles.

20 will be red - representing Sodium Hydroxide

10 will be green - representing Sodium Metasilicate

10 will be orange - representing Oxyethelene

10 will be blue - representing Butoxyethanol

50 will be white - representing fillers or bonding agents

Mix up the marbles in a bucket and blindfolded pick out 10 groups of ten and see what combination of marbles you end up in each group.

You can do the same thing with coins.

If you end up with 10 reds in one group and 10 white in another, you ended up with one that's a stripper that will melt plastic and the other that will be good for watering plants. Keep the picks in order and see how your chances diminish as you get to the bottom of the bucket. (If you've reached your 5th set and there are no more greens or reds left in the bucket, the game is over.)

I bet you 100 marbles that you can't make each of the 10 sets come out exactly the same (blind-folded).

Next stop - your local pharmacist. Ask him/her if it's OK to take a half of a time release or other type capsules. Make sure to ask why it would not be OK. (By the way - if your pharmacist says it's OK to take a half capsule of time release medicine then you should change pharmacists.)

The other part of the chemistry that most tend to ferget is paying attention to the words "by weight" or "by volume". There could be no difference or there could be a major difference. 8 ounces by volume may only be 4 ounces by weight or vise versa.

Aplus · May 28, 2003

Paul,

Your colored marbles example makes sense.

However, we're not talking about marbles.

I'm not a chemist, or a mathematician, so I don't have scientific data to back up what I'm saying.

I can only relate to my observations and experiences.

I feel that most chemicals, when blended properly with the appropriate additives can be considered truly mixed for most purposes.

For example, consider pool shock packaged in 1# bags. 90+ % of the ingrediants in the package is just filler. It's possible that any given scoop could contain more filler than another scoop, making for a weak dosage. Yet the directions tell you to add x ounces based on the gallons of water in your pool. It doesn't say you have to use the whole package. My observations for the past 17 years as a pool owner is that a 1/2 bag of shock works the same every time. Why?....because it was properly blended. In fact, I can't even think of a commercially prepared dry product that can't be measured and used at differing amounts as long as the proportions are kept the same. My expectation is that the shock has been properly blended to provide the same results everytime for any given amount.

Maybe the point is that mixing raw chems in your garage is more hit-or-miss because a person likely does not have the knowledge or equipment to make the mix as it should be. A paint stick used for stirring a couple dry chems in a five gallon pail may not be good enough.

Unless the manufacturer specifically says to not do it, I will always make up my mixes in smaller amounts, as I need them, rather than in a 55 gallon drum.

Paul B. · May 28, 2003

Tony,

I think you are a very intelligent person but in this area you seem to reject science and math. It doesn't seem like I could ever convince you or sway you from your position but let me take one more shot.

- Your assumptions on crystal pool shock is incorrect. Some pool shock contains as much as 65% potassium hypochlorite. The higher percentage of active ingredients in a crystal packet, the more likely you are to get lucky when not using the whole package, besides if a half package does not get you the result you want, what do you do? You test the pH and add more shock to the water. (If you are after hit or miss, this process works well and also sells more product for the manufacturer and the distributor, but raises your cost as a contractor.)

What happens when you have a mix that is supposed to contain 1% of the main ingredient - how lucky do you think you'll get to obtain the same result every time?

- You are correct about blending, but there are several ways of mixing fillers (for example, 1 crystal chunk could contain 3 different chemicals another example would be that some crystals are created larger than others so that you have a better chance of scooping some into your container - I could list at least 6 other methods used but I'm not sure I could convince you, as it sounds like your mind is made up.

- I think your approach is in reverse when you say "Unless the manufacturer specifically says to not do it..." But then again, I can tell you're a risk taker.

I'm disappointed that the marbles concept couldn't be translated to chemistry for you, but do talk to a pharmacist when you get a chance. If the pharmacist can't convince you, then keep doing what you're doing and I hope your advice to others does not create problems for them.

____________________________________________________

I personally do not advocate Tony's approach to anyone as it is a hit or miss process. Unless you know how the chemicals are blended or what the process was to create it, my advise is always to follow proper procedures so that you achieve the same results every time. If not sure, than ask questions rather than assume (as a matter of fact, as the same question 2 or 3 times as even mfg. reps. can lead you astray). Lot of the chemicals we deal with are dangerous at one level or another. In addition, if you're not getting something clean, you'll know that the chemical is not strong enough or not the proper solution rather than wonder if you mixed the chemicals properly. After all cleaning is about chemistry AND established procedures vs. hit and miss approaches.

Aplus · May 29, 2003

Paul,

I think you need to re-read my 2 posts. I merely expressed how I mix my emulsifier plus. Then I also say that everyone needs to do their own testing to determine what works for them.

Then I say to mix the chems at the mfg suggested rate. Every product I mentioned is approved for a mix as you need it approach.

I don't understand what you're busting my chops for..:(

Beth n Rod · June 8, 2003

The sheer beauty of the Extreme Solutions products, HD-80, EFC-38, and Citralic, are that you can either mix them as you need to, or mix them all up in one container.

We mix them as we need to and personally feel it is the best method for our needs. The powder is easier to store, and you can make it go farther if you are correctly mixing the right amount of product to water as needed at the strength the job calls for.

Beth & Rod

ron p · June 9, 2003

i only wish you could buy powdered bleach and mix 12% by the 5 gal.

Who has positive proof that 12% SH in a 20% UPSTREAMER will damage your pump? You will be rinseing it everytime you rinse the house.

I just dont see how [after upsatreaming] that 3% bleach that is rinsed out immeditely can hurt the pump.

Im thinking a $300 pump[ts2021] once a year might be worth the time saveing's over the X-JET and bucket bergade?

Any comment's?

Bob Warfield · June 9, 2003

Ron,

We have upstreamed 12% SH through that very same pump on several occassions for the past couple of years. It hasen't hurt our pump yet.

Thanks,

Bob Warfield

Paul B. · June 10, 2003

Ron P.,

If you have seals and o'-rings that are compatible or more compatible with bleach, your pump life should see minimal decrease in life. Sodium Hypochlorite removes oils or other additives in materials that keep them pliable/soft. Even if you rinse, the water will not put back the content of what the Sodium Hypochlorite removed. I don't have a cross section of a pump in front of me, so I can't speak to anything else, other than if the materials are sensitive to Sodium Hypochlorite, their life will be shortened also. How fast things corrode, how fast oils are removed from the o-rings and seals are difficult to predict, but it corrolates to the compatability issue.

Why don't you take 3 oz. of a 1 pound bag of crystal pool shock (65%) and mix into a gallon of water? Test the pH of that mix and a gallon of 12-1/4% liquid Mix the remainder in 3 oz. increments also and see how they compare. You can alter it by increasing and decreasing the crystal content.

Remember: Safety First and Make IT Last! Wear appropriate safety gear.

Henry B. · June 11, 2003

My Distributer gave me one of those comparable x jet tips and I used to drag around a bucket with it then I started hooking up my downstreamer at the machine and just stick on the fake x jet tip. It still pulls the chemical at the same rate and I dont have to carry any damn buckets now..lol Then when I'm done putting on my chem I just switch tips and rinse. I have also made my own chem tip out of two male qd's and I just plug that into my gun and it shoots about 35' and pulls chemical. It is also excellent for rinsing things off really quickly.

Henry