Thoughts on Oxalic and Ipe

[plainpainter 217]

Russell among others sells a milder acid that contains citric acids - it's selling points being that it doesn't harshly bleach the wood like oxalic and it improves your spread rate - while I am inclined to agree, I had another thought swimming in my head of mine - the one that Ipe is a hard wood to get anything to stick too. Then in my head I did one of those 'one plus one is two' moments.

If oxalic 'opens' up the wood much more severely than a citric blend - wouldn't it make more sense to use that on a wood like Ipe - to clean out the 'pores' and get a better penetration of your stain, especially woodtux.

And I am not really interested in people talking about the 'integrity' of the wood - and how we are here to preserve it. I am talking about the top few mils. I mean come one - not one of us hesitates to sand down a few mils when confronted by a nasty restoration job. Can't we just all agree the top few mils is fair game when it comes to getting stain to adhere? I mean in an inch you got 1,000 mils to play with before you run out. Floor sanders wack out your hardwood floors after the 3rd sanding. What's the big deal about getting that top few mils cleaned out for better penetration of stain. A penetration that once in place will stop or put a great damper on wood decay and allow longevity of your wood.

[RPetry 564]

Daniel,

I was in D.C. from Sunday through Wednesday with the g/friend

You're a lucky guy. Wish my wife would let me do that!

Welcome back.

[yazbird8 17]

Rick,

I use the same stuff too...6 oz. liquid volume per gal. of water..Or is that dry volume...lol

Stephen Andrews

Power Washing

[RPetry 564]

Yaz,

Hah! I never could get measurements right. Good thing I'm not a chef.

Old Daniel has got the recipe. Down in D.C. with a girlfriend for 4 days. Man oh man, to be young, footloose, and carefree again. Just thinking about it makes me feel 20 yrs. younger!

[plainpainter 217]

Hey Rick - you're wife won't let you take her to D.C for a 4 day vacation - or won't let you take the 'girlfriend' down? Which is it? LOL! My girlfriend is a middle school teacher - and has lots of the same ideas I do - and doesn't want to get stuck with some big house to always take care of. Maybe we will eventually get something small together. But for now I like to keep life uncomplicated - running my business is complications enough!

[RPetry 564]

Daniel,

I like to joke around a bit on the boards but all kidding aside, I am married for 18 years to the finest woman in the history of the world. Judy is also in public education, first as a teacher and for the past 15 yrs. as a school adminstrator, currently an assistant principal in an 800+ student K-3rd grade elementary school. No kids, both married relatively late in life. But we are getting a new Schnauzer pup next month and if I have my way, another English Spaniel Springer pup soon thereafter. We both love dogs.

I know I am probably low on the typical "husband" scale as measured by Oprah, but my wife seems to be able to put up with me for all these years. She is truly a saint.

Doesn't mean I don't fool around. Been slowly accumulating a stable of wood minxes over the past 6 years as shown in this pic.

As you might guess, that is me in the middle looking like Don Imus. My first filly, and she's been running with me for a long time, is Barbara Vogel of ACR on the right (my left). Barbara is the backbone of my barn, with a svelt, sexy German accent that will drive any sane man crazy. Unfortunately, she is married to Tom Vogel, my business supplier. The Vogels own ACR Products of Easton, Pa.

To the left (my right) is one tough acquisition. Can't get her cheap in claiming races, this one runs in stakes company. Stalked this filly for the past two years and still not completely sure if she's part of my stable. Think I got her at a time of injury, notice the mid section wraps. Always had a hankering for blondes. The '60's blinkers will be coming off the next time she runs. If you have not guessed its Beth of TGS fame. Rod owns her papers and ain't giving her up. Rod is also younger, stronger, and more handsome. I don't have a shot!

Enough of this nonsense. Clear, warm weather is finally suppose to arrive here in the Northeast tomorrow, so it will be time to get back to work!

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Not sure of what you are trying to say in your 2nd paragraph.

Sorry, I mean to say that every board is different and it seems that the one pic we have of the stain dry shows the citric board as having a tad darker grain and more of it as well. Was thinking that oxalic would not make that boards grain look more like the other which on my screen is just a hair lighter. ..Maybe if you get around to it we can get you to give us a wider perspective picture as well as the down the road ones of dry and wet. So I am asking for 3 more pics....I ask alot of you..haha..

I use the same stuff too...6 oz. liquid volume per gal. of water..Or is that dry volume...lol

Stephen

Meant to be dry volumemetric oz of product measured by liquid/volumetric measure far as I ever knew..not by weight

Think it's 1 fluid/liquid/dry oz. = 1/4 cup dry product... so 6oz of the acid is 1.5 cup in standard measure cups.. ... well someone correct me if wrong please..lol

p.s.- oh heck.. that aint right apparently cause my measuring cup that has both dry and liquid scale shows 1/8 dry equals more like 1 liquid oz....

I think in accounting for the bottom of the miniscus some may quote wrongly in a quik glance. The whole scale is moved down on liquid measure.... There are 8 eighths in a whole 8 oz volumetric measure so I don't know why my brain didn't realize before....somebody slap me.. :)

Think 1 fluid/liquid/dry oz. = 1/8 cup fluid/liquid/dry product... so 6oz of the acid is 3/4 cup in standard measure cups..

[RPetry 564]

Daniel and Kevin,

You asked for it, you got it.

First 2 "long" shot pics were taken ~ 10 minutes after the 2nd RS mix lambswooled into the ipe' top rail. Stain is still a bit wet.

Closest (bottom) oxalic, farthest (top) citric. Small coloring difference.

Pic taken from 2nd story window. Right side, including gate top oxalic, left side citric. Oxalic is just a shade lighter in color.

Next two pics were taken 20 hrs. after 2nd RS oil application and stain is dried but not yet cured for color. Immediately above is a citric closeup.

This is the oxalic ipe' in closeup. Once dried, virtually no difference in coloring is noticeable to my eye.

So Daniel's longetivity test begins on 4/21. What say you, check after 6 months?

[plainpainter 217]

Wow - cool! I thought maybe the tone would even out after the 2nd coat. So I guess we are looking back sometime around Halloween, Rick? Anyways no matter what lasts longer or what not - for now the job looks absolutely wonderful. I have read about the whole RS vs. WTW debate - it's just those pictures look like beautiful teak oil, looks wonderful.

[RPetry 564]

Daniel,

So I guess we are looking back sometime around Halloween, Rick?

Ok, that's about 6 months. Maybe even earlier, my ipe' deck gets full sun nearly all day long. I like the Halloween timeframe, gives me an excuse to wear my Bleach Bandito costume.

I have read about the whole RS vs. WTW debate - it's just those pictures look like beautiful teak oil, looks wonderful.

Yeah, it is fundamentally a difference in business models and philosophy in what is good for exterior wood.

Speaking of teak, percarb cleaned my deck teak furniture and will citric acid it and the remaining ipe' deck when I get caught up on staining customer's wood. Will post pics of RS on teak.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Rick,

So far, which result is closer match to that of whatever sales related color chart samples supplied by RS for that color?

RS has not yet responded to my request for pricing or sales materials... Am sure if I search here hard enough I could find labeled examples of each color on finished wood but I really need some professional ones in hand. Will have to do some examples up myself on some old boards but a starting point or paper ones I can attach to my own would be nice to show how they might look on other wood types or surface preperations. ... I wonder how long is their turn around on orders if they can't get back to me on the pricing or resource materials?

[MMI Enterprises 289]

p.s... apparently I not the only one traversing the mountain to RS..

One thing that is curious about Ready Seal:

They didn't (don't) offer color charts or the fan type wood color sampler (like TWP or SuperDeck). Or has that been changed?

I was going to make up a sampler package on photo paper from the color selector on their web site but their quality has a lot of room for improvement. (I'm aware of all the hazards of color variations but I like to have a basis or point to start from.)

I was told I could have samples to make my own.

I have product samples, but it's hard to carry the shadowbox fence to the customers house.

Like I said, I'm only an average sales person - I look for all the visual aids / help I can get (I believe a piture tells a thousand words). I have color charts for all the stains I present to the customer. Is anyone willing to share good quality photos of RS in action for my customer presentation? A couple in each color would make for a good start. I will promise not to claim it as Genesis work. (I'm trying to be creative so I had to ask.)

I wish the manufacturers and these distributors would try to help make the contractor's life a bit easier. Where are the old days when they would literally trip over you to help? When I find a good service oriented distributor I try to reward them as they are few and far between (sorry to say that). This is a general statement and is not intended to reflect on any specific distributor.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regards,

Paul B. (Mean Papa - Blues Meister)

[MMI Enterprises 289]

I mean like we might as well talk about something while that deck ages right Rick?

So Paul has not posted since Oct... he is a wealth of knowledge and would like to know how his search for another wet application stain besides wood tux went.

Also in reading that old poll thread that quote came from I see that James doesn't like to put on anything that needs to be stripped. I sure would like if either of them could share some more insight on the non film forming products that are readily available at popular national distributors. Without keeping an inventory on hand I really need more options then RS.

Penofin was mentioned in that thread by Paul and going by it's name it sounds to be along the lines of not needing to be stripped?...sound sorta like parafin anyways..lol.. It is available to me supposedly at my big box stores (nope,not at HD no more..voc situation apparently) as my neighbor has it in brazilin rosewood on our adjoining fence. Looks awesome for over 2 years now on north facing boards. Sun side boards are pretty dry though... we get alot of sun out here.

Who knows anything about the Penofin, McCloskey Man o war(walmart), Olympic Maximum?

p.s. - well judging by this recent thread and the south facing boards on neighbors fence Wood tux or RS is way to go-- http://www.thegrimescene.com/forums/wood-cleaning-restoration-decks-fences-etc/9837-need-some-help-w-ipe.html

p.p.s. - ok so what's the down the road story now on the Olympic Max since it changed due to VOC compliance? http://www.thegrimescene.com/forums/wood-cleaning-restoration-decks-fences-etc/5053-advice-stains-locally.html

[RPetry 564]

Kevin,

Call Peirce Fitchett, the national sales manager of Ready Seal. He likes contractors and loves to talk. It is part of his job. Phone is (757) 599-4424, email is peirce@readyseal.hrcoxmail.com

Gotta go, shower, and do some estimates.

[RPetry 564]

Kevin,

Someone makes a stain called McCloskey Man o war? Thats a hoot. Available in Walmart? Is it made in China from rice oil?

I don't know much about most stains. See a lot of bad jobs, but I think many failures and longetivity issues are due to bad preparation. Since I did not do the work, can't comment.

Started with Wolman's F&P, was an ok stain, but have not used a drop in 4 years. Did one PT deck in Nov. 2 yrs. ago with WTW, there is a detailed review here on TGS. For the past 4 yrs. been using RS exclusively. Recently posted some color samples on cedar, but you will have to search for the thread. It was posted within the past few weeks.

Oh, do a few Cabot solid oils, only a few, and always used the 1600 series. Now due to the change in VOC regs, its the 7600 series here in NJ. Don't know about the 7600, but have my first, original customer to redo sometime in June.

Oh, use to use Cabot's Aussie Oil on hardwoods. No more. Read too many problems with VOC changes and I can't stand that friggin' tung oil. Its a nightmare to strip, even off ipe'. So its gone from my bag of tricks.

Do not know if there is a distributor for RS in Ca. or surrounding states. Do know that I call my distributor here by 2:00 PM and it is delivered the next day via UPS. 30 gals. or more and the shipping is free. No inventory problems here. Like I posted earlier, call Peirce.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Yea. I sent email to him as soon as you provided it..thanx..

Went to HD and no go on the Penofin brand stuff due to VOC compliance they got rid of it. Am not all that impressed with it on neighbors fence other than sprinkler protection. (just seen that Ace/True Value has it).. HD got Thompson's and some stuff called Preservawood that might be along the line of non drying replenishing product.

What your thoughts on the Thompsons?

If I had some more brand names that might be supplied out here I may find something suitable for the goal of feeding the wood rather then coating it.

Mind you I have not checked with paint stores yet for a parafinic but someone must have readily available.

It is dismal out here really. If you drive down streets in fancy areas you usually see either new slightly treated wood, gray wood, or darker stain. If you drive in run down areas you see gray wood, blotchy half stripped honey colored HO jobs, or a little new wood that is untreated.

Not sure how suitable Woodrich Timber wood be for my needs as I've heard nothing on how it does on redwood.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Wood Finish

This is one step up from what neighbor used...is readily available all over town at moments notice..hmmm may want to try their marine oil on some things as an experiment.. what ya think Rick?

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Since this really is a thread about maintenance of Ipe decking...here is a link to some interesting info on the tree that is toted as being 2 to 3 times stronger than oak...

Oakley Woods Company Profile

[RPetry 564]

Kevin,

What your thoughts on the Thompsons?

Thompsons has been a standing joke for many years as they use to produce maybe the worst mass manufactured stain in the US. Have they changed from a marketing co. to a producer of decent product? Don't know.

Penofin has a pretty good reputation but have never seen it on retail shelves back here, used it, or run across any exterior wood that had been stained with it. So don't know.

Aside from one series of TWP, forget maybe the 100?, do not know of any retail paraffinic oil. Could not get that TWP here in NJ so never used it. The base oil I believe is produced by Amteco, which I believe is the same as Shane's Bakers Gray Away.

I do know that RS is VOC compliant in Ca. and a lot of contractors use it on redwood. I've got pics of RS medium red on old growth redwood here on TGS, just do a search on RPetry (username) and the term "redwood".

It is probably better to call Peirce. If he does not answer, just leave your tele. number and he will return the call. That is how we have communicated for the past 4 years.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Aside from one series of TWP, forget maybe the 100?, do not know of any retail paraffinic oil. Could not get that TWP here in NJ so never used it. The base oil I believe is produced by Amteco, which I believe is the same as Shane's Bakers Gray Away.

Who had it made?. Cause apparently Ken sells it and was implying elsewhere that it was somewhat different then the various models of TWP. I also assume that as reason why some one mentioned twp not belonging as a paraffinic oil in the 'experienced on the deck' thread. Worked on that thread heaps and heaps all day and have that part straightend out about the paraffin oil vs/ paraffin wax. I read almost everything under the sun on Answer.com,wikipedia,etc. about kerosene,mineral oil, paraffinoil, praffinwax, synonyms & misuse etc.,..yadda yadda..and oh yea , alboline..great makeup remover/personal lubricant :)

Revisit that thread if ya get the time...can't do it all on my own..

[RPetry 564]

Kevin,

The base paraffinic oil may be the same, but I am sure the resins, pigments, mildewcides etc. are different. TWP makes a lot of different stains, only one series that I think is paraffinic oil based.

Don't have time for much at the moment, except for doing estimates and trying to catch up on staining.

[RPetry 564]

Kevin,

Amteco is I think the parent co. of TWP. They either refine, or take the refined product from crude oil refinerers. They either produce, or distribute paraffinic oil, which is a product of crude oil.

Some wood stains that use paraffinic oil as a BASE for their products use this Amteco oil. Its that simple. I have been told Baker's Gray Away uses this Amteco base, and of course, TWP. Do not know about ESI's Woodrich paraffinic oil stain, and know that Ready Seal has their supplier of paraffinic oil.

Have not a clue, but it is a base product. Nothing more. Like maybe buying, I don't know, say linseed oil which is made from flax. Sure, I guess there would be various grades and purities, but it is the base of a stain, not the stain itself.

The other ingredients of exterior wood stains include resins, pigments, mildewcides, and probably more. I don't know, ask Russell Cissel of ESI. He probably knows more about this stuff than anyone else that posts on TGS. ESI makes various types of stains.

I'm a contractor. I stain exterior wood. I keep it simple, the old tried and true KISS method. It works for me and my customers.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

For sure I totally agree... would not doubt at all if I heard that the same base oil is actually in 99% of all the oil base out there and the other 2% are pure natural/organic drying and nondrying oils. The term like any other fancy play on words has come to mean in this industry that which penetrates with said ultrafine oil base but does not leave hard to remove drying oils. That a fair statement?....not sure what other oils or resins the TWP has so not adding without more research. Penofin (includes rosewood oil) might not really qualify neither in some folks mind cause it might not have the same base that others qualify the definition of paraffinic with. Although a little hokie, the blotter test they have on their site that compares all the biggies to their product shows the penetration as being supperior..bUtya know how marketing is. It's like yea just cause I got a kitchen full of ingredients don't mean I can cook..

STAIN ON!!..carry on :)

[plainpainter 217]

Hey - no hijacking this thread! This is a very informative thread that doesn't need any extraneous thoughts or comments. Let's keep it for Rick and his updates on the longevity of ReadySeal stain on Ipe, ok?

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Hey - no hijacking this thread! This is a very informative thread that doesn't need any extraneous thoughts or comments. Let's keep it for Rick and his updates on the longevity of ReadySeal stain on Ipe, ok?

Daniel,

How about keeping friendly and realizing people gab..post #105 as example :)

I somewhat agree with sticking to topic but if your refering to the parafinnic discussion..Rick brung it up and keeps gabbing too. Personally I believe post #96 is enough basis for continued discussion on what is being used in this extremeley important test. I also think that the test results is applicable to other woods as well.

[RPetry 564]

Case of the cobbler's kids have no shoes. Finally got to my own ipe' deck after weeks of working on customer's wood. Two separate apps of "Diamond Jim's special sauce" stain honestly BRUSHED into the ipe' floor on two consecutive late afternoons this week by my college kid helper. God bless him, I love my college kids!

Anyway, note that this is brushed, not hand rubbed lambswool, into the ipe'. We'll see how it holds up in the brutal direct sun my deck gets all summer.