First WTW of the season

[plainpainter 217]

Here is a one year old deck that came along with my house painting job.

I downstreamed my house cleaning bleach solution, several times, a little scrubbing, rinsed and then neutralized with Bob's oxalic brightener at 9ozs. per gallon.

[Celeste 341]

Decks can be stained in the same day under optimal circumstances - stripping or cleaning that may cause fuzzies don't fall into the optimal circumstances category :) The point of WTW is that the woods moisture content can be considerably higher than others, ie, on that 2nd day when you want to stain and it rains that morning, get rid of the standing puddles and go for it or new wood that can be lightly cleaned can be stained in the same day.

[PressurePros 248]

Dan, you don't have to worry about paint. Neither HD-80 nor F-18 at cleaning strength will touch it.

Our policy is also to not rinse acid. The key is to apply it via downstreamer. Its very flushed with water and weak. My decks don't turn bright. The wood dries to a natural color not the color of dried bones. Try and test with litmus, your pH will be right on the money.

[Deck Guy 14]

Hmmm....isn't that a whole different debate waiting to happen???

What's to debate?

As I said...I NEVER have rinsed brightener (not even once), and I have NEVER EVER had an issue related to it.

Rinse if you feel it benefits you, but I can't be convinced. If you have horror stories related to that issue, we must be using different strippers (or concentrations), or different neutralizers (or concentrations).

To each his own.

[Proclean 14]

Larry, I respect your comment and only respond to newbies on the board.

Depending on the stain you choose, rinising may or may not be an issue. Most stain manufactors recommend rinising the brightner off the deck. I know how Rod likes to get into the chemical part of what is going on, so maybe he will drop in. Rinsing is an important step. You strip, but do not brighten. Please share with us what stain is your main product.

Also, your statement that "you cannot be convinced" is not a very encourging statement. By that I mean, we all learn and grow as companies and I myself am always interested in new ideas. You can conviece me, I just need the proof. Please listen to what others are doing and making the business's grow.

Originally Posted by CarolinaProWash

Hmmm....isn't that a whole different debate waiting to happen???

What's to debate?

As I said...I NEVER have rinsed brightener (not even once), and I have NEVER EVER had an issue related to it.

Rinse if you feel it benefits you, but I can't be convinced. If you have horror stories related to that issue, we must be using different strippers (or concentrations), or different neutralizers (or concentrations).

To each his own.

[Don M. 14]

I'm in with the no rinse club.

[YVPW 20]

I think with the way Ken does it by downstreaming is the way to go if you're not rinsing. A couple of ounces a gallon should be plenty to let dwell and not rinse. If you apply a strong solution of acid on a deck and then don't rinse it may make the wood too acidic. Since water is around neutral after a rinse it should balance it out.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Paul,

To help head Larry's wrath off at the pass I'll advise you that you might have misread him. I think he neutralizes/brightens but doesn't rinse it off is all..

Only reason I rinse it off on the little bit of wood I have done is cause for one I've mixed it real strong and was using as a cleaner/pore opener prior to pressure washing very light graying or dirt off easy wood jobs. (Why use cleaner if it is already clean was the point..) And for two cause I have seen plenty of non rinse related issues with interior surface coatings. If these deck jobs that a bunch of you do were of the film forming type I'd about bet the house that most would see some ph issues. Just doesn't seem to matter to some here so maybe I won't bother rinsing the penetrating stain jobs.

[Russell Cissell 65]

By Russell Cissell - Extreme Solutions, Inc

I’ve noticed recently a lot of confusion with regard to the neutralization of wood during the cleaning and restoration process. I wanted to take just a few minutes to explain neutralization from the practical as well as physical standpoint. While it is not necessary to have a degree in chemistry to be proficient at wood restoration, a basic familiarity of the chemical processes that are taking place will help you understand why things sometimes go wrong for “no apparent reason”. Further, it will help you predict results and alter your process to match the job at hand. Unfortunately, I am going to have to give you a bit of background information before I can get into how neutralization affects the results of your work.

-pH 101

A Danish chemist first coined the term pH. “p” for the Danish word potenz which translates to “power” and H for hydrogen. Many compounds dissolve in water and alter the concentration of ions. Substances that form ions when they are dissolved in water are called electrolytes. The three types of electrolytes are acids, bases, and salts. Compounds that produce hydrogen ions when they are dissolved in water are called acids. Compounds that produce hydroxyl ions when they are dissolved in water are called bases.

The pH scale was developed as a (simplified) way of assigning a value to the level of acidity or basicity of any given substance. The scale runs from 0 to 14 with 7 being neutral.

Acid 0_1_2_3_4_5_6___7___8_9_10_11_12_13_14 Base

__________________Neutral______________________

Anything with a value less than 7 (for simplicity) can be called an acid. Anything with a value over 7 can be called a base. The further you go from 7 toward either end of the scale indicates the relative strength of the acid or base. Sodium Hydroxide, a common ingredient in wood strippers, ranges on the pH scale from 12.0 to 14.0 so it is very “Basic”. Oxalic, 0.1N, used in many brightener/neutralizers hits the pH scale at 1.6 so it is acidic.

“Acids” are substances that dissociate in water to produce hydrogen (H+). An example of a common acid is sulfuric acid, H2SO4- In solution, H2S04 dissociates to form hydrogen and sulfate ions.

Some other examples of acids are lemon juice, orange juice, aspirin and vinegar. Acids all share some common properties. For instance the term “Acid” comes from a Latin word that means, “sour.” You will find that most acid solutions will taste sour. On a side note, tasting a solution to determine if it is in fact an acid is not the best method! Acids share some other properties that are much safer to test for. Here are some examples:

Acids turn litmus paper red.

Acids react with many metals to form hydrogen gas.

Acids react with carbonates to form C02 (carbon dioxide gas).

“Bases” are substances that produce hydroxide ions (OH-) when dissolved in water. An example of a common base used in wood restoration is sodium hydroxide, NaOH. In solution NaOH, dissociates to form sodium ions and hydroxide ions. Common types of bases are most soaps, household ammonia and lye. Like Acids, Bases share common characteristics. The following are four characteristic properties of all bases.

Basic solutions taste bitter.

Basic solutions are slippery to the touch.

Bases turn litmus paper blue.

Bases neutralize acids.

Anytime you combine an Acid with a Base the chemical reaction that takes place is called “Neutralization.” This process of neutralization creates “Salts”

Salts

When an acid reacts with a base, two products are formed; water and a salt. A salt is an ionic compound composed of positive ions and negative ions. The ionic bond is what keeps salts in their molecular form.

The “salts” that are produced are not simple table salt (Sodium Chloride) such as is found in seawater. Chemically speaking the term “salts” is used to classify a whole group of ionic compounds. These ionic compounds are created during the complete or partial neutralization of acids. Salts can also be created by the direct combination of elements, reactions of salts and acids, or reactions between different salts. The term “salts” can further be broken down into two sub categories: Acid Salts and Normal Salts.

While “Normal Salts” are created during complete neutralization, “Acid Salts” are created during incomplete neutralization. Certain soluble salts (principally sodium, potassium, magnesium, and calcium) that have the property of combining with acids to form neutral salts are called alkalies. Unlike acids and bases, salts vary greatly in all their properties except their ionic characteristics. Salts may taste salty, sour, bitter, astringent, sweet, or tasteless. Solutions of salts may be acidic, basic, or neutral to acid-base indicators. The reactions of salts are numerous and varied.

Because of their ionic nature salts cause or enhance chemical reactions. Being ionic means that salts have an imbalance in the electrons that they contain. This imbalance facilitates the transfer of electrons from other molecules. This transfer of electrons is the very basis of a chemical reaction. In some cases this transfer of electrons is a very desirable thing. When it comes to the curing of a freshly applied stain or sealer it can cause reactions that are not conducive to the performance and longevity of the finish.

Having said that I want to take a look the chemistry behind the restoration process. Because wood, especially cedar and redwood, tends to be slightly acidic, understanding the neutralization process becomes very important.

When a contractor strips a solid colored stain or paint, often times they will use a stripper that contains a caustic, or base, such as sodium hydroxide. After the wood has been stripped the pH will still be very high (basic) and the wood may take on a dark appearance. It then becomes necessary to neutralize the wood to restore a more natural pH and color. Proper neutralization is crucial for the finish to cure out and perform optimally.

If the wood is too caustic or basic it can react with the oils in the stain and produce a form of soap. This reaction will drastically alter the curing process of the finish and result in premature failure. If the wood is too acidic it can cause decolorization of the stain or prevent proper penetration and adhesion. In general most finishes are more tolerant to acidic conditions then basic conditions.

As you read before, the neutralization process produces salts. These salts can have varied and unpredictable effects on a finish. It is not enough to simply neutralize. You must also thoroughly rinse the wood prior to the application of the finish. Substrate preparation accounts for about 90% of a finishes performance. If there are salts left behind by the cleaning process, you are asking for trouble when the finish is applied. The tricky thing about salts is they have a way of changing on you. Again, as mentioned earlier salts can be created from a reaction of other salts. Because of this it is difficult to know exactly what type of salts you will have when you return and thereby impossible to predict how a finish is going to react to any salts left behind.

An example of this can be found when looking at color shift. Color shift is a term used to describe the process wood (especially cedar and redwood) goes through after it has been over treated with oxalic acid. The chemical process that takes place draws the natural coloring of the wood to the surface. This is an unnatural state for the wood and in a short time the natural colors in the wood will migrate or shift away from the surface of the wood. This can result in an uneven or splotchy appearance. In some cases the shift can be such that the wood will take on a whitish “dead” look.

The absolute best advise I can give with regard to the cleaning and neutralization process is to rinse, rinse and rinse. When you are certain that you have rinsed as much as you can, rinse everything one more time. The extra couple minutes it takes you to rinse well is nothing when compared to the time it takes to strip off and reapply a finish that failed because you didn’t rinse well enough.

© Copyright 2004 by ESProducts.net

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Great write up Russel!!! Have never heard it all in one place like this before. Truly supreme work!!.... Do you mind if I tack some of that info onto the ph level thread I did of common chemicals in the 'chemical section'?

"This is an unnatural state for the wood and in a short time the natural colors in the wood will migrate or shift away from the surface of the wood. This can result in an uneven or splotchy appearance. In some cases the shift can be such that the wood will take on a whitish “dead” look."

My RS test boards on redwood show a little white as described above... our main wood out here is redwood and cedar.

Also, Russel.. I still have not received my samples????

[PressurePros 248]

Wow, awesome info.

Ruznell,

How will the salt manifest itself? Visible particles or is this something happening "in" the wood?

Is the reaction/forming of the salts immediate?

These salts are water soluble?

[Russell Cissell 65]

Kevin

We got the tiny little boxes in and all of the samples were shipped. You should receive yours in a few days.

I would contact Ready Seal with your concerns about their product. They would be much better suited to help you.

If you believe it would be helpful, feel free to repost that information.

How will the salt manifest itself? Visible particles or is this something happening "in" the wood?

Ken

When an acid reacts with a base, two products are formed; water and a salt. A salt is an ionic compound composed of positive ions and negative ions. The ionic bond is what keeps salts in their molecular form.

Chemically speaking the term “salts” is used to classify a whole group of ionic compounds. These ionic compounds are created during the complete or partial neutralization of acids. Salts can also be created by the direct combination of elements, reactions of salts and acids, or reactions between different salts.

It's possible for you to see these salts at the surface, but it is the salts that are formed inside the wood that you have to be most concerned with, because you don't necessarily see them.

Is the reaction/forming of the salts immediate?

More or less, yes. All chemical reactions require temperature and time so the immediacy of the reaction is dependent upon the conditions in which the reaction is taking place.

These salts are water soluble?

Yes, at the point they are formed they can easily be flushed away with water.

[PressurePros 248]

I'll change our method to include rinsing from here on out. Thanks Russell.

[plainpainter 217]

I've read this information before on Russell's site - and have always been rinsing. That being said - the woodtux job looks better each day. Russell - would you not recommend treating a deck the same day it is pressure washed for future purposes? Maybe I pushed the original intent of your product a little too far. That being said several neigbors have been awing at the deck and want me to do their decks now. Great product. With all these VOC laws - can't trust anyone else these days.

[PressurePros 248]

I've done plenty of deck in a day jobs. I've gotten away from them because they en up wasing time figuring out where you stopped and started and then there is the issue of the Tux displacing the water in the wood. We've ben running on a 'wash one week/stain the next' schedule.

[Russell Cissell 65]

Dan

We've never really set any limitation to what you can do with the product. That's the difference between a "product" guarantee and a "satisfaction" guarantee. It's my job to create products and pass on sufficient technical knowledge so that you don't land yourself in a dissatisfactory type situation.

That being said, here is what you can expect. Wood-Tux will dive through water and bond with the wood regardless of the moisture content. The higher the moisture content the slower it will dive into the wood. Your goal is to apply at a rate of about 200 square feet per gallon regardless of how fast or slow it penetrates.

This means you will move much faster on bone dry wood than you will on soaking wet wood. Application is only half the battle. Your other consideration is the cure time of the product.

Wood-Tux is an oil based drying finish that is designed to cure. In order for it to cure, it has to be free of water and then go through the same drying/curing process you've probably seen with other oil based finishes.

On dry wood at 85+ degrees it dries and cures relatively quickly. It's designed to handle hot wood without flashing. The nice thing is that if the wood is really, really hot, you can mist it with water to lower the surface temperature giving yourself more time to work the product in the heat.

On the flip side, this means the more wet the wood is when you apply, the longer it will take for the product to fully cure. If the wood is really wet like it is when you have just finished washing, you can expect a very slow dry time and possibly 24 to 48 hours or more to fully cure. If the wood is in the sun it will cure faster, if it is in the shade it will cure out more slowly. Temperature means everything.

When conditions are least favorable, such as when it's cool, wet and shady the addition of a drier such as Japan Dry (available at most paint stores) will speed up the curing process. It's also good to let the homeowner know upfront that a deck that's stained wet requires longer to cure and they should plan to stay off the deck. (Dogs too)

If you stain a deck and it immediately begins to rain, that deck is going to take longer to dry and cure. In severe conditions, the finish may even begin to turn yellow (like it does when it is applied to very wet wood). Once the rain stops and the moisture evaporates, the finish will even back out and dry beautifully (in most cases).

I know this isn't a very direct answer but, I hope it helps you.

[plainpainter 217]

Hey Russell - I know now why you market this to only professionals, because you have given us more lattitude and decision making. Where as other products are more about the company holding the homeowners hands. You have given us a product that allows us to fine tune our business models and needs - it's just a new thing for me. But that being said - wow, your stain doesn't flash like ordinary stains, it soaks right in! It seems to have a feel of one of those penetrating type stains. And if people call this a film former - it's only because, you get that as well on top of the penetration. And I like it overall because it has lots of linseed oils w/out too much alkyds making it rock hard - it just soaks and soaks. BTW - this was stain I bought last fall, hope the formula hasn't changed.