Beth n Rod

Kevin, Yes, sorry, I was responding to what you wrote. I may have misread what you posted, but it looked like you were suggesting sanding a finish if it turned out blotchy after being applied wet....so I gave a chronology I believe is accurate. Dan, Yeah I guess you could say we made a career on Tux, but it would be more accurate to say we made a career on high end wood care, with Tux as one of our mainstay products along side others (we always several). We have tried very hard to be fair in our assessments of various things, but also critical as well because the customer will remember the applicator, that's who they paid. The product, well, you know as well as I do that we are supposed to be informed and know the good, the bad and the ugly. Regardless of the fact that we have zero control over manufacturing or delivery, the responsibility is on our shoulders to get the work done and to offer what we believe to be the best wood care solutions available today. The VOC law changes have done a disservice to oil based products, but it's what we have to deal with. Beth

It's always good to test things, and this should be fun to see where it goes. Beth

Thank you Rick, that in a nutshell sums up the very basis of my arguments. The second sentence is in direct correlation with practices that have been handed down for centuries. I am only being open minded enough to consider the changes and evolution in formulations which may be innovating our preparation regimens to keep in line with them. So far, the tried and true still is in effect. Rod!~

Ken, We are too. I think a number of people are anxious for the new kid on the block to hit the streets. Several will be offering it.... ;) Beth

So you are saying ... if you are following this thread... that after you wash, then seal the wet wood, if blotchy - then sand (WHEN DRY)- which means resealing? Dude, that's nuts. To me (and what the heck do I know) its better to: Wash Let dry Sand/prep as needed Seal Get paid and boogie. Beth :seeya:

$4.10 is alot better than $4.51! Beth

I read the post and understand your peaks theory and do not dispute it. I just don't find it as important as you do. I would have avoided the commentary though as it can be construed as leading the observer. Let the results do the talking. I would leave the board as is in order to avoid any ill speculation by others who may claim switches or tampering with the samples. My whole point is longevity and thanks to your test board, we shall see. Thank you for doing this. Rod!~

The pics tell the story without bias I suggest now, let it weather for six months in direct sun and revisit. Granted this will not have any traffic type wear but the sun will do the job for the most part. I expect this post to come back at the end of October. Rod!~

If it is an external host, that's cool. :) Beth

Please do me a favor and attach the photos rather than embed them....much healthier for the database if they are attached.... Beth

Try a garden hose and a soft bristle brush on the screens with your house wash soap on it. High pressure will damage them. If you are talking about a wooden screened in porch, you might want to remove the screens to clean and seal the wood, then replace them. Beth

Diesel was $4.51 here today. :lgbugeyes:crying: Beth

Too cool! Did you get pics? Beth

I wonder what happens if you put 50 dancing drunks up there....50 slam dancing drunks.... Beth

Just need to verify that it is paint as there are a number of people who refer to coatings using the word "paint" as a term. If it is indeed paint that is peeling then the process will be best suited to a professional that is experienced with paint strippers. Not saying you are or aren't qualified, you know your capabilities. Proceeding on the assumption it is paint instead of a solid stain; 250' x 6' (if I am correct) = 1500sqft x 2 = 3000 sqft for both sides. The best stripper by eacochem will cover 125-250 sqft / gal and it comes in 5 gal pails. Lets go with the minimum coverage to figure it out. 3000/125=24 gal/5 = 5 pails. Retail for this product was $185.00 + shipping / 5'er so you are looking at $925.00 relatively for product alone. If you hire someone to do it, add their labor, etc. to the bottom line. This of course only addresses the stripping part and not the application of a future coating or finish, the product cost and labor for it as well. Hopefully in this post I have answered both questions to a degree of being able to make a decision one way or another. Rod!~

I propose an even simpler test; Sand one side of a board with 130-150 grit and the other side with 80 grit and let the color do the talking. One coat on each and no cheating. I guarantee you that the side done with 80 grit will be darker than the other. This is an exhibit of absorption. Wood is only as open as the grit you apply provided one gets to new, dry wood. The finer the grit the more closed the wood becomes. The exception is severely old and dry which is open due to excessive cracking etc. I like all the fancy talk and technical jargon but when it comes down to it, simplicity is easier to understand than the dissertation you just provided Kevin. btw, not trying to put any words into your mouth, you have enough for all of us. lol. just kidding with you on that but my initial statement in post #13 was a supporting argument and you misunderstood that point. Technically, you are talking subjectively and while you were trying to cover as many possibilities as you could but dag! Anyway, product was not the cause of the failure but preparation was in the situation I mentioned in that same post. Finer grits actually lead to a polished finish and with that in mind penetration is limited to what can be absorbed by the woods fibers closer to the surface. For the sake of specifics, we are going to define that we are talking about "softwoods" which are fibrous thus this is the method of introduction of any oils or solvents into the substrate. Hardwoods in contrast are porous which makes absorption shallow no matter what grit is used. These woods are also higher in extractives which can make the wood impermeable. Softwoods have a higher permeability and are by far the best at accepting a coating/finish or conditioner due to the ability of the material to absorb in depth as well as laterally. The ability of this material to absorb is determined by the condition of it. Being "open" for example is technically correct in dry pristine wood that has not been exposed to any other treatments. This condition decreases as the fibers absorb any previously applied treatment including water. Fibers are like a sponge, therefore they need to be vacant in order to be able to absorb. Once filled, these fibers become less able to absorb which necessitates sanding to expose newer fibers. Otherwise, these fibers are altered and can no longer accept any new finish as they once did. Now, in regard to thicker formulas vs fine oils, this is a mute point. Absorption will vary accordingly and the ingredients included will determine what will penetrate and to what level. Fibers are constructed very close together and have little space between them to allow larger particles such as pigments and resins to go much deeper than a few mils. Oils, on the other hand have a compatibility with wood fibers due to the nature of pitch and resins found naturally in them according to species. This is the primary reason most products use oils or water to act as a penetrative medium to facilitate drawing pigments and resins deeper into the substrate. So, your need for proof that the product has penetrated deeper in one condition versus another is not going to show much color in the cross cut to verify your claim due to the separation that occurs as an act of filtration. The larger particles (pigment and resins) will stay closer to the surface while the oils which have a negligible amount of color will not show deeper into the wood. The whole point of penetration in the case of stains is the get the color deep into the wood in order to have any durability. The oils are guaranteed to dive deep but they do not provide the UV protection. The pigments do, the resins and binders hold them there. There is no 'mechanical grip', only chemical bonding. I see what you are talking about in the failures scenario but that is not the premise of what was being discussed so I find that part misleading. Application level imperfections are not just operator induced but also are characteristics of penetration due to the wood grain direction in the cut of wood. Have you ever seen two boards side by side absorb differently? One will actually push the product back out while the adjacent board will take and take and take. This can happen along the same board according to the heartwood and sapwood proximity of a cut that exposes both because the trunk when put through the mill had large branches which originate towards the center of the tree. To further define what grit does, lets look at it from a sideview. When the wood has been sanded with a fine grit, the wood will look like a very level surface. A rougher grit will leave it looking like jagged valleys in comparison. For outdoor applications, this is optimal as you are giving the product the ability to bond with more surfaces instead of just a level one. This increases bonding strength and durability by allowing a thicker layer of product to remain vs the thinner layer given the applications are the same. Sorry for the long 'dissertation' but I figured one deserved another. :) Rod!~

Van, Are you asking as a homeowner or a contractor? Beth

Bingo! It is very easy to sand a blond spot onto a board, which will give you an uneven look when you seal. When sanding in spots, make sure you even the board out. Beth

No Spamming. Bye bye..."Muaz"

I disagree with Kevins assertion that one can use anything above 80 grit on exterior wood and still get longevity out of the product. A fact of the matter is that the wood will absorb and hold more product with a lower grit being used. My point specifically is that above 80 grit, the sealer has very little hold on the wood and will fail quicker than otherwise. I have seen this first hand and in other posts related to this explained my encounter with a customer who thought they knew better. Remember, we are dealing with exterior wood and not interior based wood. The temperature variances wood goes through on any given day can test to the adhesion capabilities of any product trying to hold onto the substrate. Open grain occurs with varied degrees according to grit used. Unless you are coating all 6 sides of the board, failure is considerably faster with higher grit finishes. Yes, oil vs latex vs acrylic etc... Still, our company is trying to get the product to last as long as possible and if you are trying to (metaphorically speaking) get it to hold on by it's finger tips verses having a good hand hold, I think this makes a good example. Penetration has always been key and that ability is affected by the final grit used. One other thing to take into consideration: sanding just a spot or two will give the wood an uneven look once the product is applied. Our rule of thumb is to sand the entire length of board in order to maintain the consistency of the finish. There are cleaning sticks you can buy to keep your sandpaper cleaner and usable longer and helps to alleviate clogging. Beware though, if you don't get dust as you are sanding, you are burnishing the wood. Some wood has been hardened by linseed oil and will be a bear to sand to a decent finish. I recommend a planer instead. Rod!~

Wayne, Knock it off. Beth

It's not the paper that creates the heat Ken, it's the friction from the motion of the sander. I have seen both fine and course paper clog, and it depends entirely on what you are removing. If you want a furniture finish, but are removing a coating, start coarse, end fine. For exterior surfaces our top end grit is 80, 60 is ok also. If you are doing interior work, you would of course sand progressively finer. Beth :cup:

Yup. Also on a hot day, as the deck dries, you get uneven color due to the WMC changing as you work. Beth :cup:

Thanks for sharing Wayne. So what else is new? Sorry I didn't see you at ACR... Beth

Were you banned or can you just not get on like the rest of us. The site is having problems. If you were banned, you will find we run a very professional forum here and what went on there doesn't go on here. Beth