Beth n Rod

Thanks Roger :) Beth

[YT]gdRnHzSblNk[/YT] Margarita anyone? Beth :dancing:

I hate it when things like that happen. I had a similar experience about 5 years back. I don't remember the company at this point, but I am really careful now who I let do what. Hope it all works out for you Barry. Beth

Hey all, I thought it might be fun to start an Ipe Lovers thread. We did a deck recently where the owner just had replaced his rail system with ipe and cable. Pretty neat looking. Rod snapped a shot of one X that had a really cool grain pattern. Thought I would post it. Anyone else have any ipe (or other hard wood) shots with cool patterns in the grain? Beth

More fun with Ipe! [YT]2WT1nxvzOVM[/YT] Beth :cup:

This was a while ago. Acetone has been advised for several years and if my memory serves me, this was prior to 2005, I think it was 2004 on the deck I am thinking of. I'll ask Rod to share his thoughts when he gets home. Beth

Yes. We have. It was a royal pain to wipe an entire two level deck with acetone too I'll tell you that. Beth

Let me make one distinction here; there are water "based" and there are water "borne" products. The make up is of acrylic resins and certain alkyds that by formulation can include water. Now, in my experience, HD-80 has been able to strip most products on the market and for those it didn't, I would add an additional surfactant, a booster if you will (call Tom @ Acr products if you need more info) that allowed it to strip them too. If it doesn't strip well, you may be facing an acrylic or latex formula that has other fortifiers in it like teflon, epoxy or silicon which HD-80 does not have much effectiveness on. Do a test spot first under the rail cap to see if it will work. Rod!~

Can I have the old boards? Pretty please? Beth

Thanks...I'll toast them. SPAMMER SUCK! Beth

Dan, for the most part, I answered that in my posts. I have not seen any product last beyond 9 months in full sun exposure before the beginning signs of failure. It was Sikkens dek that held up the longest. Rod!~

Woo,woo,wooo,wooo!! Oh, wise guy eh? Wanna mince some woids wit me do ya??? Last (2) 1. to remain in existence or operation; continue; go on; endure 2. to remain in good condition; wear well... It's pretty definitive in these terms. A realistic expectation is based upon the manufacturers claims which in a real world sense are not accurate. Cabot specifically told me during a dispute that the product should "last" between 12-18 months on Ipe without fading, cracking, peeling. This is my basis of contention and the supporting facts of my statement. I hope that helps to put us on the same page. I am not talking about the market but product. This is where we seem to have lost our understanding. Cabots technical data sheets specifically say to evaluate maintenance every 1-2years. On the realistic side, Messmers recommends cleaning and recoating 2X a year. Sikkens by comparison recommends every 18 months. They have not been able to "last" according to their specifications. These are my expectations set by the manufacturer, and if that is not realistic than I don't know what is. I am the end user that makes the suggestions to my customer based upon my working knowledge. Now where do we differ? Your suggestion that a product exists on the market that will hold up under the conditions I have specified. It is not a reality in our region. I understand your point in hypothesis of a benchmark but I am contesting that benchmark, that's all. Rod!~

Ken, Now you are assuming I do not know how to set the expectations. Problem is, in our area, maintenance every 8 months is not realistic as you well know. Top of the line??? You talk as if I'm slinging thompsons here. Please read my post again and assess the pertinent point "Full Sun Exposure". There is not a product on the market today that will last beyond 9 months in that kind of environment. You are up farther north from us with a shorter season and a minimal temperature reduction in the mid summer months. I have evaluated them and this is my conclusion which is not vague at all...nothing last a year on Ipe in full sun. This is based upon our observations, and evaluations of several products that claim to be suitable for use on hardwoods. CATO, mesmers, wtw, sikkens, RS, penofin all suffer UV degredation after 6 months to the point of failure. Many exhibit mildew proliferation and not just on the floors but clear to the top of the railcap. Granted there are an abundance of coniferous trees in the vicinity but to have mildew growth beyond the splash zone is indicative of a products fungicide failing. Now, taking into consideration your statement "There is no product that is going to look fresh on ipe for more than a year, I don't care what it is." Perhaps we are using a different pronoun. You say "fresh", I say "last". What it equates to is neither of us are happy with the way a finish looks after a years worth of time, let alone 6-9 months. I can appreciate your sales approach in telling your customers a statistical expectation but I believe in giving definitive answers to help set real time expectations. Different sales style. I don't want to get into debating one style over another, I just want a manufacturer who may read this thread to sit up and take notice because otherwise, they do not really know much beyond their accelerator testing and letting a product sit on a piece of wood out in the middle of a field without it being exposed to "life" as it pertains to real world performance on a deck. They do not take into consideration the air flow clearance below the structure which can lead to moisture accumulations which can cause the wood to swell. "No big deal" someone says??? What happens to the wood once a dry spell of a few weeks transpires? That moisture evaporates and the wood shrinks rapidly. This fundamental dynamic creates a massive failure of most products on the market today. "So?" someone may say, "what about those decks that are second level where moisture is not a concern?" Ok, how about the thermal induction envelope that can cook the sealer right off the wood? You know, 90* day in the grass but up on that deck it is easily 105*-115* for 6 of the 10 hours during a typical sunny day. Lack of moisture causes wood to shrink adding to the dynamic change that a deck is subject to. This in turn shortens a products service life and leads to failures which all that is necessary is a good rain to add to the cycle. I could go on but I think my point is made. Ipe is a hardwood, it is dark and attracts heat, it is the densest wood being used on outdoor structures and also is highly impermeable to much more than fine oils. Where does that leave us? Nothing will last a year on Ipe in full sun. Not everyone can afford to keep the look of a freshly cleaned and sealed deck so it is my job as the professional to keep my eye out for a product that will help the customer to make the most of the money they spend to care for their wood. Relative to sun, shade or climate, the question is still the same, how long will it last? 6-9 months? thats all? I understand buyers remorse and when these people have been told that the product is environmentally sound, safe for their children to play on and will last 25 years with little maintenance, I feel their pain when I have to drop the bomb on them about how often it will need to be maintained if they want it to look decent all year long in contrast to just letting it go grey and save the money. It is disappointing and that is what compels me to look for something better and I know my customers appreciate the effort. I hope a Manufacturer reads this and takes it to the next level. It is a shame to spend all that extra money to only have to spend even more, more often than they would if they had a pt deck installed instead. Rod!~

You are smart to stay away while you are sick, but I know you are itching to get in there to see them. Can't wait to see pics! Congrats GrandPa! Beth

Ken, Nothing does last. All products have a life cycle. They are designed to fail so the products can repeat the life cycle. This is very basic. Being realistic is wonderful, and if you are able as a pro to accurately set expectations that makes you look good I'll agree with that, but it doesn't mean the consumer will feel good about the longevity or lack thereof. It is prudent to educate the consumer on the changes in VOC laws where applicable, and to explain why products are less durable. Many are aware of this decrease in durability (from our experience). The bottom line here, is that the changes to formulas have had an effect on the industry in general, and this will in time spread to other states. Everyone is thinking...and going....GREEN. Beth

Daniel, I'll leave you to what you believe. My question was to Roger in specific was to find out how they may be in line to be affected by any VOC regulation heading down their pike and he answered that question. You are fortunate to still have access to the other version, but soon you may find yourself in our boat, this is what I am talking about. I am concerned for our customers who depend on our expertise to provide them with a product that will protect their investment when there isn't one available capable of meeting a measly 1 year expectation in full sun exposure. Regardless of what it has to do with...mineral spirits, resins or whatever, the problem is durability. Hard resins don't necessarily have durability. I watched Sikkens Dek fade off from a shady side of a vertical surface over six months in our shaded back yard. That was a polymer resin, quite hard by comparison to alkyd oil based resins. I watched WTW on our pt deck this last year go bye-bye in 8 months and yes we kept it clean, umbrellas, furniture and plants spaced well around it and it didn't hold up. Now, if it didn't hold up well on our deck, imagine what a full sun deck of our customers looks like now? We applied it to a number of Ipe' decks and it is failing within 8 months on average. Not a good testament to performance. Yeah, I hear the questions; did you over apply it, did you prep the deck right, etc etc... yeah I did sand da floor, yeah I did wax on wax off! yeah I did paint da fence!! but da Ipe said "thbthbthbthtbhtbhtbhtbht!!!! Nothing lasts on Ipe, no matter how you apply it, no matter what resin, what oil or etc. Rod!~

Low-VOC Paints Are More Than Just ‘Green’ Going, going, gone? Environmental restrictions are making oil-based paints and stains scarce in some areas | Building Products | Find Articles at BNET.com A good link helps... Beth

Cabot's is not the only one who changed or performs less well. It happened to Sikkens SRD and DEK, TWP, ESI's Wood Tux, and so forth. We have spoken to a number of reps from various manufacturers and it was an across the board thing. It effected coatings in general. Beth

Dan, When the VOC's were reduced, it's not like all they did was remove some solvents. Rod is not saying the solvents were the only factor. Formulas changed across the board....this did include resins....etc. Beth

Keep it coming guys... This is a hot topic. Did you raise your prices last year based upon fuel costs? Will you this year? How are consumers in your area reacting to increases in services? Beth

I could not tell you Scott whether it is the same or not since we are in the red zone here and once the stocks were depleted we no longer have any reference. (wishing I still had a can) Hopefully, someone can help answer that one. Rod!~

I think you are being a little presumptuous Dan. I never said anything about mineral spirits. BTW, Prior to the VOC changes, ATO was a very nice product. I don't know what prompted the Russell rah rah since I was responding to Roger specifically. I used to be in that group of people but after being made an unwilling guinea pig, I don't share the enthusiasm. I am not going to argue your opinions on what is best suitable for Ipe at this juncture. It would be foolish of me to profess that anything on the market at this time has any decent longevity where outdoor hardwood structures are concerned. Keeping it oiled well with minimal surface film is a good idea but will not last long in full sun exposure. This is the most prominent situation our customers have. Roger, You are fortunate to have access to that formula still, we here in the U.S. are still wanting.

The pre-2005 was the good stuff, but I don't remember the formula number. Maybe someone else does.... Beth

That's not a surprising result at all.... Sad.... Beth :cup:

Work is booking and we're counting down the days! :) Beth